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The Official 2023 Draft Thread

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#141 » by doclinkin » Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:38 pm

daSwami wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
daSwami wrote:I'd support taking Edey with our first pick. He's that good.


I think he has a chance to be more impactful on his first contract than Wemby. Maybe overall, depending on health. He's got a quietness to his competence/competitive aspect that keeps him overlooked. I think the league is swinging back towards the Bigs though, and if you have a lynchpin center that is playable in a switchy scheme, you have an edge on the competition. Edey looks like he will be a solid pro on a winning team. Solid being a key word. The Porzingis/ Chet/ Poku/ Bol Bol body type is vulnerable in dings and tweaks from playing in traffic. Chet won't be easy to bump or dislodge off his center. He is regularly hacked and beaten on in NCAA play, and remains unmoved. As a mid-late lotto pick he will prove his value. If he falls past that he will be a steal. Yes I'd have no problem taking Zach with our pick.


I think he's de-valued by scouts b/c there's a stigma around "slow-footed" behemoth-types, because their skill-set is not suited to the "modern-NBA," which is generally true; but the thing is: Edey isn't slow-footed at all, and his body is well-proportioned (whatever that even means. In short: He moves like a guard.) Also - he wastes not a step, nor a second holding the ball. He rarely dribbles, and when he does, it's mostly to gather himself before making a move - it ain't highlight-reel stuff, it's efficiency.


Right, he reminds me of the Big Fundamental in that respect. Does his job. Doesn't make a big deal about it. Just does it damn well.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#142 » by Dat2U » Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:57 am

I think its poor value to draft a C before the 2nd round and how many drop coverage bigs we need?

There's enough wing & guard depth late lottery that reaching for a C seems unnecessary.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#143 » by daSwami » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:51 am

Dat2U wrote:I think its poor value to draft a C before the 2nd round and how many drop coverage bigs we need?

There's enough wing & guard depth late lottery that reaching for a C seems unnecessary.


This is a bad take. Edey isn't a reach, he's BPA after We Bananas and Scoot. The scouts and armchair twitter draft gurus are wrong and i am right, as usual. Doc is right, too.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#144 » by The Consiglieri » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:21 pm

Kinda stunned at the cluster of teams sitting between 30 wins and 34 wins right now in the league, wondering if it's EVER been like this before? Is it Wenbamyama that's motivating it or just randomness in play.

13 teams are between 30 and 34 wins right now. That's the region of about .440-.510 win percentage. Would be curious to see what it normally looks like.

There's basically 5 teams whose tank is too strong to catch: Houston, Detroit and San Antonio in a tier, and then Charlotte and Orlando, and then the mighty bunch of 30-34 win teams out of in general, about 66-68 games played (so 14-16 left). We're basically smack dab in the middle of that pile of 13 teams (a little bit on the better side of tanking, for now, with 31 wins).

So its pretty wild, the best case scenario pre lottery and almost certainly a pipe dream, is 6th. The most likely, for now, looks like around 8th-13th. And of course if we can't figure out how to tumble behind Chicago and Indiana we run the risk of somehow miraculously winning the play in and totally screwing ourselves in classics Boulez style.

It looks likely to be a deeply fascinating 3 weeks.

The one thing that strikes me as a bummer is that it does seem like most of the talent projected in our most likely range (8th-15th) is of the front court rather than back court variety.

Otoh, as posted previously, I think this team is screwed for quite a few years to come. In total denial and prepared to go forth with the 1980-2020 game plan for another half decade (desperately try to land the 8 seed and then get immediately swept every year).
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#145 » by NatP4 » Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:53 pm

daSwami wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I think its poor value to draft a C before the 2nd round and how many drop coverage bigs we need?

There's enough wing & guard depth late lottery that reaching for a C seems unnecessary.


This is a bad take. Edey isn't a reach, he's BPA after We Bananas and Scoot. The scouts and armchair twitter draft gurus are wrong and i am right, as usual. Doc is right, too.


He’s projected late 2nd, how would he not be a reach at the wizards 1st round pick?

Each year, there are a handful of Cs that can dunk the ball and rebound and block a few shots. Last year you had Duren, Mark Williams, Walker Kessler, Koloko.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#146 » by Dat2U » Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:32 pm

NatP4 wrote:
daSwami wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I think its poor value to draft a C before the 2nd round and how many drop coverage bigs we need?

There's enough wing & guard depth late lottery that reaching for a C seems unnecessary.


This is a bad take. Edey isn't a reach, he's BPA after We Bananas and Scoot. The scouts and armchair twitter draft gurus are wrong and i am right, as usual. Doc is right, too.


He’s projected late 2nd, how would he not be a reach at the wizards 1st round pick?

Each year, there are a handful of Cs that can dunk the ball and rebound and block a few shots. Last year you had Duren, Mark Williams, Walker Kessler, Koloko.


Right. Maybe 10-15 years ago Edey would have been a late lottery choice and been a respectable pick but its too easy to play guys like that off the floor unless they are truly a dynamic offensive talent.

Yall can say he's light on his feet all yall want but he's still 7-4 285 and isn't mobile or changing directions quickly.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#147 » by doclinkin » Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:12 am

NatP4 wrote:
daSwami wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I think its poor value to draft a C before the 2nd round and how many drop coverage bigs we need?

There's enough wing & guard depth late lottery that reaching for a C seems unnecessary.


This is a bad take. Edey isn't a reach, he's BPA after We Bananas and Scoot. The scouts and armchair twitter draft gurus are wrong and i am right, as usual. Doc is right, too.


He’s projected late 2nd, how would he not be a reach at the wizards 1st round pick?

Each year, there are a handful of Cs that can dunk the ball and rebound and block a few shots. Last year you had Duren, Mark Williams, Walker Kessler, Koloko.


Jalen Duren who had a 30 pt 17 board game? And has had 6 games this year with 14 or more boards? As the youngest player in the draft.

Mark WIlliams who has been 2nd on his team in +/- for most of the season (among all players playing 500+ minutes), as a rookie.

Walker Kessler averaging close to 3 blocks a game, likewise 2nd among Jazz starters in +/-.

Christian Koloko (my trade down pick) who leads his team in +/- at +11pts per 100 possessions.

Those guys? Thanks for making my point for me. Rookies do not lead their squads in +/-. Nearly never. This guys are.

I am saying, the league is changing and teams have not yet recognized it, but after the next couple offseasons there will be a run on playable defensive bigs. The teams that advance will not be small ball squads, but those who have a mismatch in their favor at the low-post position, at either or both ends.

You can make the point that those players are still undervalued and will be available late in the draft, thus it would be smarter to get them on a trade down, and pick up other assets as well. But my prognostication on this is that they won't be undervalued for much longer, so if you can lock one or more down long term at team friendly rates you will have useful assets that other teams will pay to obtain.

I'd agree if you have too many at the same position you may lose that value since their counting stats will be suppressed competing with each other. However. Is Daniel Gafford so good we shouldn't look for an upgrade?
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#148 » by daSwami » Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:13 am

Dat2U wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
daSwami wrote:
This is a bad take. Edey isn't a reach, he's BPA after We Bananas and Scoot. The scouts and armchair twitter draft gurus are wrong and i am right, as usual. Doc is right, too.


He’s projected late 2nd, how would he not be a reach at the wizards 1st round pick?

Each year, there are a handful of Cs that can dunk the ball and rebound and block a few shots. Last year you had Duren, Mark Williams, Walker Kessler, Koloko.


Right. Maybe 10-15 years ago Edey would have been a late lottery choice and been a respectable pick but its too easy to play guys like that off the floor unless they are truly a dynamic offensive talent.

Yall can say he's light on his feet all yall want but he's still 7-4 285 and isn't mobile or changing directions quickly.


This is so wrong my brain hurts.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#149 » by Dat2U » Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:11 am

doclinkin wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
daSwami wrote:
This is a bad take. Edey isn't a reach, he's BPA after We Bananas and Scoot. The scouts and armchair twitter draft gurus are wrong and i am right, as usual. Doc is right, too.


He’s projected late 2nd, how would he not be a reach at the wizards 1st round pick?

Each year, there are a handful of Cs that can dunk the ball and rebound and block a few shots. Last year you had Duren, Mark Williams, Walker Kessler, Koloko.


Jalen Duren who had a 30 pt 17 board game? And has had 6 games this year with 14 or more boards? As the youngest player in the draft.

Mark WIlliams who has been 2nd on his team in +/- for most of the season (among all players playing 500+ minutes), as a rookie.

Walker Kessler averaging close to 3 blocks a game, likewise 2nd among Jazz starters in +/-.

Christian Koloko (my trade down pick) who leads his team in +/- at +11pts per 100 possessions.

Those guys? Thanks for making my point for me. Rookies do not lead their squads in +/-. Nearly never. This guys are.

I am saying, the league is changing and teams have not yet recognized it, but after the next couple offseasons there will be a run on playable defensive bigs. The teams that advance will not be small ball squads, but those who have a mismatch in their favor at the low-post position, at either or both ends.

You can make the point that those players are still undervalued and will be available late in the draft, thus it would be smarter to get them on a trade down, and pick up other assets as well. But my prognostication on this is that they won't be undervalued for much longer, so if you can lock one or more down long term at team friendly rates you will have useful assets that other teams will pay to obtain.
I'd agree if you have too many at the same position may lose that value since their counting stats will be suppressed competing with each other. However. Is Daniel Gafford so good we shouldn't look for an upgrade?


I don't understand the mismatch part. Is that solely based of having size at C or something else? I have not seen where a team imposes their will because of a big frontcourt. Its a skills based league and its usually skill wins out unless you got a freak like Embiid, Jokic or AD who all have a combination of both.

Gafford is certaintly replaceable but based on this draft (not any other), I'm not seeing the value of looking for his replacement in the 1st round. There's also not a playable SF on the roster & we have low usage non-playmakers at PG. Just too many other issues to worry about fawning over the next Bryant 'Big Country' Reeves IMO.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#150 » by Dat2U » Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:16 am

daSwami wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
He’s projected late 2nd, how would he not be a reach at the wizards 1st round pick?

Each year, there are a handful of Cs that can dunk the ball and rebound and block a few shots. Last year you had Duren, Mark Williams, Walker Kessler, Koloko.


Right. Maybe 10-15 years ago Edey would have been a late lottery choice and been a respectable pick but its too easy to play guys like that off the floor unless they are truly a dynamic offensive talent.

Yall can say he's light on his feet all yall want but he's still 7-4 285 and isn't mobile or changing directions quickly.


This is so wrong my brain hurts.


I dunno calling him the 3rd best prospect in the draft is pretty wild. You might be alone in that take. It will be absolutely shocking if he goes in the lottery. Its simply not 2002 anymore, teams will put him in P&Rs and run it every play until he's out the lineup.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#151 » by doclinkin » Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:45 am

Dat2U wrote:I don't understand the mismatch part. Is that solely based of having size at C or something else? I have not seen where a team imposes their will because of a big frontcourt. Its a skills based league and its usually skill wins out unless you got a freak like Embiid, Jokic or AD who all have a combination of both.


The recent league defensive rules re-emphasis has neutered the ability of outside shooters to create wild swings of probability with hot streaks. As of last year defenders have been emboldened to play close on the exterior, and also put a damper on the dribble drive attacks by whistling offensive players for forcing contact etc. The game is not being won with 3's and the free throw line.

The pendulum swings back towards interior scoring, and rebounding. Interior defenders are not being killed with fouls when perimeter attackers drive into their chest. The ability of exterior defenders to play closer to their man (without fear of giving up a foul on a 3pt shot) slows the action a hair longer for Bigs to recover when they do drive. In addition we see fewer 3 second calls from bigs on the interior.

This means higher percentage plays should tend to slide back to what they used to be: the big guys near the basket. League average blocks per game are up. Dunks again rise to the most efficient shot in the game.

https://runrepeat.com/82-stats-on-dunks-in-the-nba#PositionDistribution

Yes teams with skilled bigs find success, especially if they also have a 2nd Big who can hold down the paint on defense. You want to be able to go Big or go Skilled, but have the flexibility to do both.

East Standings:
Giannis + Lopez. Lopez is the ranged attacker on one end and the immobile interior defender on the other.
Horford + Robert Williams
Embiid + Tucker. Though Embiid is a force both inside and out. Tucker is pretty much solely dirty work.
Mobley + Jarret
Randle + Robinson

If you can force Giannis to be a jumpshooter. Or Tatum. Or even Embiid. You can blunt the best weapon of the top teams. I expect you will see it most pronounced in the postseason, where fouls get called less and less. The team that rebounds and dunks will have an advantage over teams that rely on 'skilled' shooting. As a corrollary I think teams with a true playmaking PG will once again have an edge, if they can get the ball to the interior to take advantage of the higher percentage plays. The era of the combo guard is not over, but is in decline.

We see these unicorns showing up, I'm skeptical they will win. IF they do, it looks to me like each of these finesse giants will need to have a dirty-work big who can play with them. Otherwise their health is endangered. One reason KP has picked up fewer minutes lost to injury in DC is because Wes has played him primarily away from the traffic underneath, where he can pick and choose when he attacks the lanes. We have had success with Gafford as our interior big, allowing KP to float above the FT line for most of his minutes.

Okay, sure, you think Edey is as immobile as Big Country. Maybe it's the games I've caught, but I've seen his lumbering-looking strides cover a ton of ground to cut off attack angles and keep in front of much quicker players. Lumbering or not his footwork, anticipation, stride length, and use of his size have helped him defend smalls even when I thought he was beat. What is more hopeful to me though has been the development of his game. I noticed him playing behind Trevion WIlliams then taking his starters minutes. And noticed him suddenly not picking up foul calls, while still defending every shot.

I'm not saying he will be a game-changing giant, singlehandedly revitalizing the position of the super-big. I am saying unless you have reliable interior size, you are going to struggle against the teams that sneakily have been growing their own Big front court. Tall ball is a real weapon. Our starters have been winning with it, until Gafford gets foul trouble and goes to the bench. Or our finesse Big stops hitting his shots. Then we give up the big leads we earned early in the game.

I think I'm seeing something, the same way I saw the small ball era coming from the offensive success of the Twan + Gil pairing. (Stretch forwards + combo guards. I just wanted a passing/defending Big with a jumper above the FT line to round out the trio). Dunks and rebounds will matter more than outside shots and fouls forced by attacking guards. Could be wrong, but it looks like we trend that way.

Unless of course if you have Stef Curry on your team. Because he is supernatural. Shrug.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#152 » by doclinkin » Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:03 pm

But yeah I've got 6 or so players I'm intrigued by. And if I could get Edey on a trade down and still get another pick I like, awesome. If he was there in the late lotto and I'm looking at other candidates less interesting, I don't hate the pick. Not 3rd best in the draft, that's not the hill I'm picking to defend, me, but there's a solid chance Edey will have a better career than most of the top half of the first round.

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#153 » by daSwami » Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:12 pm

I'm sensing a lot of anti-peach-fuzz moustache bias out there, and frankly, it's disheartening.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#154 » by NatP4 » Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:45 pm

Besides Jokic&Embiid, the most impactful players in the NBA are shot creators/ball handlers/switchable players. You can only play one true C/drop coverage big at any given time, and even then, in crunch time/playoffs, teams will just high pick and roll that guy to death.

Combine that with the fact that 4-5 NBA caliber true Cs are available in every draft and the wizards already have two on the roster.

Go down the list, the most impactful players on each of those teams:

Celtics: Derrick White&Jayson Tatum.
Bucks: Giannis&Jrue Holiday
Sixers: Embiid&Harden
Cavs: Garland&Mitchell
Knicks: Brunson&Hart&Quickley

Mitchell Robinson/Horford/Robert Williams/Jarret Allen are all solid rotation players, but the only two true Cs in the NBA that are elite impact guys are Embiid/Jokic.

If your argument is that Edey is the next Embiid/Jokic, then fine, but I definitely do not see that. Wembanyama is actually one of those freaks.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#155 » by FAH1223 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:13 am

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#156 » by AFM » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:17 am

we suck ass!!!! LETS GOOO!!!!!!!
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#157 » by gesa2 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:29 pm

AFM wrote:we suck ass!!!! LETS GOOO!!!!!!!


The real truth is that there is a path to a very good team if we luck into Wembayama or Scoot Henderson. It’s our best (only?) chance at it over the next couple years.
Making extreme statements like "only" sounds like there are "no" Jokics in this draft? Jokic is an engine that was drafted in the 2nd round. Always a chance to see diamond dropped by sloppy burgular after a theft.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#158 » by payitforward » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:56 pm

NatP4 wrote:Besides Jokic&Embiid, the most impactful players in the NBA are shot creators/ball handlers/switchable players. You can only play one true C/drop coverage big at any given time, and even then, in crunch time/playoffs, teams will just high pick and roll that guy to death.

Combine that with the fact that 4-5 NBA caliber true Cs are available in every draft and the wizards already have two on the roster.

Go down the list, the most impactful players on each of those teams:

Celtics: Derrick White&Jayson Tatum.
Bucks: Giannis&Jrue Holiday
Sixers: Embiid&Harden
Cavs: Garland&Mitchell
Knicks: Brunson&Hart&Quickley

Mitchell Robinson/Horford/Robert Williams/Jarret Allen are all solid rotation players, but the only two true Cs in the NBA that are elite impact guys are Embiid/Jokic.

If your argument is that Edey is the next Embiid/Jokic, then fine, but I definitely do not see that. Wembanyama is actually one of those freaks.

This is both intelligent & thoughtful, Nat. Hanging around with me is proving to be really good for you -- I'm glad!
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#159 » by daSwami » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:31 pm

NatP4 wrote:Besides Jokic&Embiid, the most impactful players in the NBA are shot creators/ball handlers/switchable players. You can only play one true C/drop coverage big at any given time, and even then, in crunch time/playoffs, teams will just high pick and roll that guy to death.

Combine that with the fact that 4-5 NBA caliber true Cs are available in every draft and the wizards already have two on the roster.

Go down the list, the most impactful players on each of those teams:

Celtics: Derrick White&Jayson Tatum.
Bucks: Giannis&Jrue Holiday
Sixers: Embiid&Harden
Cavs: Garland&Mitchell
Knicks: Brunson&Hart&Quickley

Mitchell Robinson/Horford/Robert Williams/Jarret Allen are all solid rotation players, but the only two true Cs in the NBA that are elite impact guys are Embiid/Jokic.

If your argument is that Edey is the next Embiid/Jokic, then fine, but I definitely do not see that. Wembanyama is actually one of those freaks.


You may not see it, but a lot of people do. Edey is a freak: he's an efficiency freak, and that matters. https://theathletic.com/4080952/2023/01/12/zach-edey-purdue-defense/https://theathletic.com/4080952/2023/01/12/zach-edey-purdue-defense/
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#160 » by FAH1223 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:18 pm

Zach Edey is currently mocked 2nd round. Don't mind taking him.
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