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How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be?

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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#141 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 19, 2025 2:49 pm

GatherStepGuru wrote:Im concerned that we had 3 1st round picks last year and 1 the year before, and I still don’t see a convincing candidate to build around moving forward from now.

To be fair, last year's draft was one of the worst in this century.

Bilal looks like a keeper, albeit probably not a centerpiece. It's too soon to tell about the others. None of them are sure bets to be quality starters, but none of them are sure busts either. They still look fairly good relative to their draft class.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#142 » by payitforward » Sun Jan 19, 2025 5:31 pm

TBH, I don't understand this whole thread.

Did anyone think we would be "good" this year? Did anyone think we would be "better" than last year? I can't imagine either of those ideas.

Yeah, it would have been great to move Kuz at the deadline. But, the truth is that we don't know what got in the way of that. If Kuz invoked his salary kicker, that might have killed the deal -- & we might still have presented it as "we gave him the choice, & he wanted to stay."

But, other than not trading Kuz I can't think of a thing that could have gone differently with a better result.

Above all not the sequence of deals by which Beal was turned into Poole & a ton of draft capital. We didn't go into that sequence with the goal of acquiring Jordan Poole! He was who we could get. If he becomes tradable, great. Otherwise, he is the cost of giving Bradley Beal a no-trade clause. Period.

For the rest it's all about the boo-hooing pursuant on our having traded Deni. Yet, I'm pretty sure that any GM in the league would have taken 2 R1 picks, 2 R2 picks, & Malcolm Brogdon in return for him.

This is gonna be a loooong haul. We're not building a title contender in 3 years.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#143 » by FAH1223 » Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:48 pm

payitforward wrote:TBH, I don't understand this whole thread.

Did anyone think we would be "good" this year? Did anyone think we would be "better" than last year? I can't imagine either of those ideas.

Yeah, it would have been great to move Kuz at the deadline. But, the truth is that we don't know what got in the way of that. If Kuz invoked his salary kicker, that might have killed the deal -- & we might still have presented it as "we gave him the choice, & he wanted to stay."

But, other than not trading Kuz I can't think of a thing that could have gone differently with a better result.

Above all not the sequence of deals by which Beal was turned into Poole & a ton of draft capital. We didn't go into that sequence with the goal of acquiring Jordan Poole! He was who we could get. If he becomes tradable, great. Otherwise, he is the cost of giving Bradley Beal a no-trade clause. Period.

For the rest it's all about the boo-hooing pursuant on our having traded Deni. Yet, I'm pretty sure that any GM in the league would have taken 2 R1 picks, 2 R2 picks, & Malcolm Brogdon in return for him.

This is gonna be a loooong haul. We're not building a title contender in 3 years.


And that's what Michael Winger keeps saying when he has a mic.

It is about building a sustainable contending team.

Will Dawkins at the onset of the season said we are still in the deconstruction mode.

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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#144 » by payitforward » Sun Jan 19, 2025 10:24 pm

Exactly.

Of course, you can still wish they'd traded Kuz (leaving aside the unknowns in that potential Dallas trade). & you can still have a negative view of the Deni trade (though I don't, & also I don't think the facts support a negative view), & you can still have the wide range of irrational views that are the privilege of every fan. Goes w/o saying.

But the fact is that we are years away from being any good, & there are no shortcuts. Hence "concerned -- or alarmed" makes no sense whatever.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#145 » by The Consiglieri » Mon Jan 20, 2025 6:12 pm

tontoz wrote:I am definitely concerned about how bad Sarr and Bub are at finishing inside.


I don't know if this would make any sense argumentatively, but these were considered issues going in, right? I think it was even featured in an athletic story about Bub or something, that Bub was really short, and had a huge growth spurt like the past 18-24 months or whatever, and as a result of that diminutive height, hadn't really been a guard who worked much inside in high school. So he should be raw as hell inside, just from that, at least according to the context of the article. For Sarr, it really does seem like a case where it could be softness, but it could also be: dude needs 18-24 months of NBA level weight training to build an NBA body for NBA play.

For me anyway, the lack of inside game for both seems explicable as something other than "fundamentally flawed player,"of course, maybe Bub stays always crap inside, because of the limited athleticism, which would suck, and I'll concede that, and maybe Sarr is a soft mentality guy, and so he's always soft as butter in the paint and that sucks too. I'll concede that both are possible, hell, maybe even likely to some extent, but I think the fact that both are totally understandable issues in context, could provide some degree of help that they'll move the needle at least to "adequate" given time, and maybe better. Hoping anyway (and I think there is at least some hope).
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#146 » by payitforward » Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:02 pm

"Hope" is a perfectly sensible way to think about those who are young. Especially when there is much more to point to than hope.

Both these kids have gifts; there's a lot to work with.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#147 » by DCZards » Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:26 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:
I don't know if this would make any sense argumentatively, but these were considered issues going in, right? I think it was even featured in an athletic story about Bub or something, that Bub was really short, and had a huge growth spurt like the past 18-24 months or whatever, and as a result of that diminutive height, hadn't really been a guard who worked much inside in high school. So he should be raw as hell inside, just from that, at least according to the context of the article.

The lack of an inside game is an issue for Bub and was reportedly a concern prior to the draft. That should improve with experience, coaching, and strength-training.

On the other hand, I hope Bub is paying close attention to Brogdon and Butler and the way they are able to get into the paint for layups and floaters.

Brogdon and Butler almost always rely on guile and shiftiness—and not athleticism—to get to the rim.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#148 » by badinage » Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:58 pm

There is a new regime, and that regime has had two drafts. And in those two drafts it has drafted 5 players.

Some of those players may pan out as pieces. Ideally, pieces that are part of the eventual “foundation.”

Right now, there are only some glimmers. Even of Bilal.

Is that tragic? No.

But two years is not nothing. Even if those drafts were not said to be special.

A large part of the reason Dawkins is here is that he is believed to be gifted in identifying talent. Grunfeld is derided on here — and rightly — for having whiffed outside the Top 3. But we’re all saying that the rebuild will really get into gear with this draft and the next, when we can — maybe — draft a stud of a player. Or — we hope, we hope — two studs back to back.

If this rebuild is to result in what was promised — a “generational” team that competes for a title for 6-7 years, wins a couple, and routinely racks up 60-win seasons — it’s going to require Dawkins to hit (and hit big) outside of the “easy,” star picks. And so far, who knows? Yes, it’s going to take time to see what we have in them. But it’s not unreasonable to wonder whether anything of great value will have come out of these past two years.

And if it doesn’t, then — and I know some will say this is preposterous — it might have been better to have punted altogether on both drafts, using the future, stockpiled picks to stack the odds for drafts that are more promising.

Given the way the past two years have gone, what would have been the downside? To win only 3 games? If we’re going to be so obvious in our tankitude, then who cares, really? Mock the very notion of winning. Just lose, baby. Make it fun — or at least funny. Compete only when you want to. Operate only on your own terms, the league be damned.

ANYway …

There is a lot of benefit of the doubt being extended right now. I get it. I’m extending it too. I want to believe. And I like these 4 young-uns.

But there’s very, very little to hang hope on right now.

Well, no. There IS something to hang hope on. The unfortunately slight prospect of landing Flagg or Bailey in the next draft.

So, yeah, I’m a believer — or a hoper. But I see no reason not to also be an angster.

Finally: I know the sports are completely different, but the Team Formerly Known as Redskins got a new owner, a new GM, and a boatload of new players … and are in the conference final. Yes, yes, of course — they drafted a breathtaking star. And all of this is dependent, largely, upon his magic. Yes. Of course. But the idea that we need to give this 4-5 more years — that’s … that’s a different kind of breathtaking.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#149 » by tontoz » Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:09 pm

Bub averages 1.1 free throw attempts per 36 minutes.

I know the scouting report on Bub in college was that he struggles to finish inside but I wasn't expecting him to be this bad. He seems scared to drive and when he does drive I can't help but cringe expecting something bad to happen.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#150 » by payitforward » Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:20 pm

Not just "a breathtaking star" but "a breathtaking star Quarterback" -- there is no equivalent position in basketball, one where a single exceptional player can have that kind of effect on a team.

Unless we specifically whiffed on someone in the '23 or '24 draft there's just nothing to take apart here -- & I can't come up with an error of that magnitude in either draft -- tho Vukcevic gives no appearance so far of being an adequate NBA player.

But I'm sure that whiffing on Vukcevic at #42 in the draft doesn't weigh heavily in your judgement or uncertainty.

As to being an "Angster" -- honestly, I can't see it. After decades of misery, I give the new guys a ton of runway.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#151 » by doclinkin » Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:43 pm

payitforward wrote:Not just "a breathtaking star" but "a breathtaking star Quarterback" -- there is no equivalent position in basketball, one where a single exceptional player can have that kind of effect on a team.


Nikola Jokic says hello.

Likewise before him: LeBj. Stef Curry. Shaq. MJ.

I think it’s been clearly shown that having an MVP caliber player makes all the difference in wins and losses. And it takes extraordinary circumstances for a team to win it all without that player on their squad. There have only been a few teams that won Championship rings with superior teamwork/ roster construction without a guy who is in the conversation of the best of the best. Usually, that happens when the MVP contenders are suffering a down year, or the next generational player needs a few seasons to grow into the role.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#152 » by payitforward » Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:49 pm

badinage wrote:...two years is not nothing....

Yes it is. & anyway it's only been 19 months!

The Rockets went 44-28 in '19-20 then began to rebuild. In their first 4 years of rebuilding they won a total of 100 games -- & 41 of those 100 wins came in the 4th season! :)

At this writing they are 28-15 in '24-25 -- the 5th year of the rebuilding process.

& they had more to work with than we did when the total rebuild began -- we weren't exactly coming off a 44-28 season!

badinage wrote:...there’s very, very little to hang hope on right now.

Hope is not a strategy.
Hope is not a methodology.
Hope is not a stance.
Hope is nothing.

Dawkins isn't employing hope in his work.

You can learn a lot from ancient Greek history: http://academics.wellesley.edu/ClassicalStudies/CLCV102/Thucydides--MelianDialogue.html
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#153 » by payitforward » Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:08 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:Not just "a breathtaking star" but "a breathtaking star Quarterback" -- there is no equivalent position in basketball, one where a single exceptional player can have that kind of effect on a team.


Nikola Jokic says hello.

Likewise before him: LeBj. Stef Curry. Shaq. MJ.

I think it’s been clearly shown that having an MVP caliber player makes all the difference in wins and losses. And it takes extraordinary circumstances for a team to win it all without that player on their squad. There have only been a few teams that won Championship rings with superior teamwork/ roster construction without a guy who is in the conversation of the best of the best. Usually, that happens when the MVP contenders are suffering a down year, or the next generational player needs a few seasons to grow into the role.

All good points, of course. Then again, LeBron won his first title in his 9th season, & it wasn't in Cleveland.

& it took a lot more than 4-5 years for Jokic to lead Denver to a title. So...

I'll stick with my point: no way Lebron affected Cleveland as strikingly as Daniels has affected the Commanders.

edit:
The commanders went 4-13 last season -- that's a 19 or 20 wins translated to the NBA's 82 game season. This year they went 12-5. Translates to a 58-win NBA season.

Obviously, JD wasn't 100% the reason for such a transformation, but all the same it's hard to imagine adding one player to an NBA team & going from 20-62 to 58-24 immediately.

Then again... Wilt did have 43 points & 28 rebounds in his first NBA game! :)
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#154 » by AFM » Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:17 pm

Jokic would not make us contenders. Maybe we'd be .500 at best. Doubtful.

There's only one player that would make us instant contenders and his name is:
Spoiler:
Deni Avdija
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#155 » by doclinkin » Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:48 pm

badinage wrote:If this rebuild is to result in what was promised — a “generational” team that competes for a title for 6-7 years, wins a couple, and routinely racks up 60-win seasons — it’s going to require Dawkins to hit (and hit big) outside of the “easy,” star picks.

...

But there’s very, very little to hang hope on right now.

Well, no. There IS something to hang hope on. The unfortunately slight prospect of landing Flagg or Bailey in the next draft.

...

Finally: I know the sports are completely different, but the Team Formerly Known as Redskins got a new owner, a new GM, and a boatload of new players … and are in the conference final. Yes, yes, of course — they drafted a breathtaking star. And all of this is dependent, largely, upon his magic. Yes. Of course.


This. See my post above. The only thing that matters in the next 2 years is dodging the loss of our lotto pick, and escaping the aftereffects of the Westbrook-for-Wall trade.

In the NBA it's nearly impossible to win a chip with a collection of role players. PIF will argue that you CAN find all stars lower down, and that in every draft there are players drafted late who prove better than those at the top. But studies show that the curve is pretty steep after the first 5 players, and the hit rate at the top is better. The best of the best are often identified really early. People knew Wemby was coming. LeBron. Shaq. And for a few years now scouts have been touting the next two years as particularly strong at the top. The factor most likely to turn a team around is to draft a franchise guy at the top of the draft. A team cannot afford to waste those assets.

But we have declining protections on those two years. it is imperative to lose the next 2 years or else waste the opportunity of our losses. And ship our assets to an Eastern Conference rival.

Therefore it seems to me you can't really assess the team, the players, or even the drafting ability of the front office. While they are matrix-dodging choices made by the prior front office. Dawkins and crew deliberately selected long term projects. Young players and late growth spurt guys who will require time and seasoning. They did not take accomplished instant professionals like Zach Edey. Upperclassmen or accomplished box score heroes. They took projects.

Bub and Bilal were among the youngest players in their draft classes. Bub is a half year younger than Baby Deni was as a rookie. Sarr was noted as being a raw prospect, who of all the guys at the top of his class was the one most likely to need seasoning, at a position that takes longer to develop. Long time 'guard' Kyshawn is in the middle of a growth spurt that may top out at 6'10", when drafted it was known he needs conditioning and strength training. Even Vuk was a young talent on a team of professionals in Europe.

They weren't drafting the Corey Kispert and Johnny Davis types who came into the league as developed as they were going to be.

So. The point is not that they have to have hit on winners in the guys they drafted. They had a trickier proposition, they have to pick great talents and hope that they break out some time AFTER we draft surefire All Star prospects. The 'hope' aspect only exists in our luck in our lottery. But even there they are minimizing our risks and shoring up our percentages. We are playing our rookies heavy minutes, letting Jordan Poole captain the team, held on to Kuzma and shipped out the only guy on our roster who has had a positive effect on our +/- box score results. We HAVE punted to the future.

I like the talents we have selected. I think they could develop well. Brogdon and JV seemed like the right sort of vets to put around them. We have effort and energy guys at the back end of the bench. We stay scrappy even in double digit losses. But the thing that matters most is not to hope that our youth all become stars, but that we do not lose the only asset that we can actually 'win' by harvesting all these losses.

It's not nothing, but if you had a better than 1-in-10 chance of taking the next Larry Bird (or whomever the best comp is for Flagg) as a long time Wizards fan I think you'd be happy with those odds. As of today we have a 100% chance of a top 5 player this year. 40% of a top 3 guy. And next year, if we don't ship our pick to New York we get our lotto balls plus all of Phoenix' if they miss the playoffs.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#156 » by payitforward » Tue Jan 21, 2025 12:57 am

In short, there is no reason to be "concerned -- or alarmed." Instead, there is every reason to be excited -- & nervous! of course!

Above all, given that we are doing something altogether NEW for the franchise, there is reason to be engaged! To enjoy this novel experience.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#157 » by badinage » Tue Jan 21, 2025 4:19 pm

payitforward wrote:
badinage wrote:...two years is not nothing....

Yes it is. & anyway it's only been 19 months!

The Rockets went 44-28 in '19-20 then began to rebuild. In their first 4 years of rebuilding they won a total of 100 games -- & 41 of those 100 wins came in the 4th season! :)

At this writing they are 28-15 in '24-25 -- the 5th year of the rebuilding process.

& they had more to work with than we did when the total rebuild began -- we weren't exactly coming off a 44-28 season!

badinage wrote:...there’s very, very little to hang hope on right now.

Hope is not a strategy.
Hope is not a methodology.
Hope is not a stance.
Hope is nothing.

Dawkins isn't employing hope in his work.

You can learn a lot from ancient Greek history: http://academics.wellesley.edu/ClassicalStudies/CLCV102/Thucydides--MelianDialogue.html


The Rockets are not one to cite, if we're talking about a major rebuilding success.

28-15: a nice record, and with room to grow. But I don't see the kind of team there that Winger has talked about creating here -- a "generational" team, that perennially wins 60 games over a 6-7 year span, is a contender every year, wins a couple of chips.

They're better right now than Orlando and Detroit, who also have been rebuilding for eons, but that's not saying a lot. They have talent, but no superstar, no galvanizing force. They'll need a trade or trades.

And this is year 5. If this is what we have to look forward to -- oof. Is it better than the treadmill we were on? Sure. But, again -- Winger talked about a generational team, and I'm holding him to that. As should we all.

It's way, way too early to tell whether that has even a glimmer of a chance of becoming true, and of course this franchise would need something it hasn't had a lot of in 45 years: luck.

But I won't be happy with the "success" of that Beal-Wall-Porter team: a good showing in the second round. You can build teams many, many ways -- a deep rebuild through 5 years of the draft is only one route.

I wonder: how many great teams (not even generational teams, but just great, sustained great) have been built this way over the past 40 years? It would be interesting to explore.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#158 » by dckingsfan » Tue Jan 21, 2025 4:58 pm

Reminder, as a fan that has no control over the strategy, tactics and logistics - hope is all we have.

And a second reminder, when the tactics and logistics don't align with the strategy, hope can be dashed on the rocks (like it has for decades for this franchise).
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#159 » by AFM » Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:00 pm

28-15 is on pace for 54 wins. Something we have never done since 1978, matter of fact we've only won 54 games 3 times in franchise history. Time to temper expectations.

Your last question is kind of misleading. We aren't in the same boat as MIA or LAL or NYK. Top tier players will never force a trade to WAS. We aren't that type of franchise. We have to build from the ground up through the draft.
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Re: How Concerned — or Alarmed — Should We Be? 

Post#160 » by DCZards » Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:12 pm

Of course the goal should be a “generational team,” but that’s just FO/GM talk. If you’re expecting a generational team in 4-5 yrs you might be disappointed. (I’d like to be wrong.)

I’d be happy with a very good team that is consistently in the mix for the ECF and maybe wins a chip or two. But that’s easier said than done.

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