Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico
fishercob wrote:
Nene for Thomas Robinson, Dorrell Wright, and Joel Freeland. I doubt we pilfer Leonard or McCollum, but you never know.
fishercob wrote:Nets trade: Kevin Garnett
Wizards trade: Nene
Why would the Nets do this?
Well, even if KG retires and comes off the books immediately, they still have no cap space. Their best bet to replenish their talent is to trade KG. Nene would fit very well there, could play with any of their other bigs, create matchup problems against other East front courts, etc. This makes the Nets better without hurting their reset plans in two years.
Why would KG agree to this, given his no trade clause?
It enables him to take the next several months off and rest -- then decide if he wants to link up with title contender for another run. Given his home in Malibu, and his love of Doc Rivers, you don't have to squint too hard to imagine him joining the Clips as the 3rd big they desperately need. He'd come back ready and refreshed, perhaps having used some of his time off to tour some of Germany's modern "medical clinics." With Pierce's free agency, he may sign there too.
Why would the Wizards do this?
Instant cap space. They can retain Gortat and Ariza with frontloaded deals that minimize their cap hits next year. It greatly increases their chance of landing a big star to play alongside our young core in the next two years. Nene would be replaced by lower cost, shorter term stopgaps -- all names we have discussed. Talking heads who don't understand basketball would freak out, and the Wizards would be fine. They'd win 45 or 47 games, another playoff series, and then roll into next summer with max cap space, a first round pick, and their best opportunity to build a contender in years.
nate33 wrote:fishercob wrote:Nets trade: Kevin Garnett
Wizards trade: Nene
Why would the Nets do this?
Well, even if KG retires and comes off the books immediately, they still have no cap space. Their best bet to replenish their talent is to trade KG. Nene would fit very well there, could play with any of their other bigs, create matchup problems against other East front courts, etc. This makes the Nets better without hurting their reset plans in two years.
Why would KG agree to this, given his no trade clause?
It enables him to take the next several months off and rest -- then decide if he wants to link up with title contender for another run. Given his home in Malibu, and his love of Doc Rivers, you don't have to squint too hard to imagine him joining the Clips as the 3rd big they desperately need. He'd come back ready and refreshed, perhaps having used some of his time off to tour some of Germany's modern "medical clinics." With Pierce's free agency, he may sign there too.
Why would the Wizards do this?
Instant cap space. They can retain Gortat and Ariza with frontloaded deals that minimize their cap hits next year. It greatly increases their chance of landing a big star to play alongside our young core in the next two years. Nene would be replaced by lower cost, shorter term stopgaps -- all names we have discussed. Talking heads who don't understand basketball would freak out, and the Wizards would be fine. They'd win 45 or 47 games, another playoff series, and then roll into next summer with max cap space, a first round pick, and their best opportunity to build a contender in years.
This is genius, fishercob.
Unfortunately, due to the nature of front-loading, I'm not sure how much it can really help us with respect to generating 2015 cap room. With standard contracts, the most you can "frontload" is by starting at a high salary and offering 7.5% decreases. If the goal is to minimize 2015 salary on a 4-year contract, the best thing to do is have a 7.5% decrease for the year 2 salary, and 7.5% increases on year 3 and year 4. Based on what we assume the market value for Gortat and Ariza are, after we sign them to contracts structured like above, we would still need to find a way to unload Webster before having max cap room in 2015. Ultimately, the Garnett Gambit doesn't really help us any more than trading Nene for an ordinary expiring contract.
The one caveat is if we utilized signing bonuses to frontload the contracts of Ariza and Gortat. The cap hit on a signing bonus gets averaged throughout the length of a contract, but only counting guaranteed years. If future years are non-guaranteed, then the cap hit is averaged only through the guaranteed years. If Gortat and Ariza would agree to 4-year contracts where Years 2, 3 and 4 are not guaranteed, then that opens the door for a front-loading gimmick that could really help us. The question is, what would it take for Gortat and Ariza to agree to non-guaranteed deals. We could try a wink wink deal where we informally agree to pay them the duration of their contract even if they get hurt. (That's really their main concern. If we cut them in future years for cap purposes, it won't really hurt them because they would already be making a low salary since their contract was frontloaded. By getting cut, they get an opportunity to sign a more expensive contract with some other team.)
Anyhow, if they agreed to 4-year contracts with Years 2, 3 and 4 non-guaranteed, and Gortat took 4 years, $44M, and Ariza took 4 years, $32M, we could structure their contracts (and cap hits) as follows:
Gortat
$17,125,000
$9,735,625
$8,946,250
$8,156,875
Ariza
$12,475,000
$7,099,375
$6,523,750
$5,948,125
That would leave us with about $16M in cap room in 2015 with Webster still on the roster
LyricalRico wrote:^ I don't think BKN gives up Teletovic, and Kirilenko didn't look that great to me last year. But Nene for KG+Thornton would clear the logjam at SF while giving us a true backup SG. And the extra savings to the Nets in the short term might also get us a 2nd.
Eats up the immediate cap savings for us, though.
fishercob wrote:LyricalRico wrote:^ I don't think BKN gives up Teletovic, and Kirilenko didn't look that great to me last year. But Nene for KG+Thornton would clear the logjam at SF while giving us a true backup SG. And the extra savings to the Nets in the short term might also get us a 2nd.
Eats up the immediate cap savings for us, though.
Nene for KG+Thornton doesn't work under the CBA. We'd have to include Webster, and upon some thought I'm not sure that Webster-for-Thornton really appeals to BKN.
BUt Kirilenko has a player option. So despite AK "not looking that great," if we trade for him, he may well decline his option and then we're really in business.
fishercob wrote:LyricalRico wrote:^ I don't think BKN gives up Teletovic, and Kirilenko didn't look that great to me last year. But Nene for KG+Thornton would clear the logjam at SF while giving us a true backup SG. And the extra savings to the Nets in the short term might also get us a 2nd.
Eats up the immediate cap savings for us, though.
Nene for KG+Thornton doesn't work under the CBA. We'd have to include Webster, and upon some thought I'm not sure that Webster-for-Thornton really appeals to BKN.
BUt Kirilenko has a player option. So despite AK "not looking that great," if we trade for him, he may well decline his option and then we're really in business.
In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:
For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player immediately, either by himself or without aggregating his salary with other salaries. This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap. (Also see question number 87.)
When the trade deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.
verbal8 wrote:fishercob wrote:LyricalRico wrote:^ I don't think BKN gives up Teletovic, and Kirilenko didn't look that great to me last year. But Nene for KG+Thornton would clear the logjam at SF while giving us a true backup SG. And the extra savings to the Nets in the short term might also get us a 2nd.
Eats up the immediate cap savings for us, though.
Nene for KG+Thornton doesn't work under the CBA. We'd have to include Webster, and upon some thought I'm not sure that Webster-for-Thornton really appeals to BKN.
BUt Kirilenko has a player option. So despite AK "not looking that great," if we trade for him, he may well decline his option and then we're really in business.
You can't trade for a guy who is going in to an option year(team or player option).
CBAFAQ.com:In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:
For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player immediately, either by himself or without aggregating his salary with other salaries. This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap. (Also see question number 87.)
When the trade deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.
fishercob wrote:Thanks verbal. Could AK exercise his option and the Wiz then trade for him?
nate33 wrote:thricethefun wrote:dckingsfan wrote:
I just see absolutely no way that OKC trades Adams. Adams/Ibaka is their FC future.
I disagree. OKC is in win now mode. They have 2 years left to try to win a championship or Durant walks. And Nene could be the guy to put them over the hump. OKC is in win now mode. I could definitely see them giving up a long term prospect like Adams if it meant getting Nene.
As I said before, if they lose both Adams and Perkins in the process of acquiring Nene, it's questionable if they are any better at all. What exactly are they going to do when Nene misses 30 games due to injury? All they would have accomplished is to get older, more expensive, and more injury prone.
Adams is part of their "win now mode". They're not going to trade him unless it's for a full-time, top 10ish starting center, capable of playing 2800 minutes in a season.
dckingsfan wrote:nate33 wrote:thricethefun wrote:
I disagree. OKC is in win now mode. They have 2 years left to try to win a championship or Durant walks. And Nene could be the guy to put them over the hump. OKC is in win now mode. I could definitely see them giving up a long term prospect like Adams if it meant getting Nene.
As I said before, if they lose both Adams and Perkins in the process of acquiring Nene, it's questionable if they are any better at all. What exactly are they going to do when Nene misses 30 games due to injury? All they would have accomplished is to get older, more expensive, and more injury prone.
Adams is part of their "win now mode". They're not going to trade him unless it's for a full-time, top 10ish starting center, capable of playing 2800 minutes in a season.
Yep, Adams is a solid C right now - better than Perkins. They would probably do Perkins for Nene - but that is about it. Good chance that he is a top 20 C next year.
+ don't forget that our FO loves Nene - count on him being here next year...
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Question.
Had we drafted Adams, given Randy's preference for seasoned vets and his win or else ultimatum, would the young man have played enough for us to know what we have?
dckingsfan wrote:nate33 wrote:thricethefun wrote:
I disagree. OKC is in win now mode. They have 2 years left to try to win a championship or Durant walks. And Nene could be the guy to put them over the hump. OKC is in win now mode. I could definitely see them giving up a long term prospect like Adams if it meant getting Nene.
As I said before, if they lose both Adams and Perkins in the process of acquiring Nene, it's questionable if they are any better at all. What exactly are they going to do when Nene misses 30 games due to injury? All they would have accomplished is to get older, more expensive, and more injury prone.
Adams is part of their "win now mode". They're not going to trade him unless it's for a full-time, top 10ish starting center, capable of playing 2800 minutes in a season.
Yep, Adams is a solid C right now - better than Perkins. They would probably do Perkins for Nene - but that is about it. Good chance that he is a top 20 C next year.
+ don't forget that our FO loves Nene - count on him being here next year...
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:dckingsfan wrote:nate33 wrote:As I said before, if they lose both Adams and Perkins in the process of acquiring Nene, it's questionable if they are any better at all. What exactly are they going to do when Nene misses 30 games due to injury? All they would have accomplished is to get older, more expensive, and more injury prone.
Adams is part of their "win now mode". They're not going to trade him unless it's for a full-time, top 10ish starting center, capable of playing 2800 minutes in a season.
Yep, Adams is a solid C right now - better than Perkins. They would probably do Perkins for Nene - but that is about it. Good chance that he is a top 20 C next year.
+ don't forget that our FO loves Nene - count on him being here next year...
Nene for Perkins might not be a bad idea.
Works in trade checker. OKC could be down, would give them a big time talent upgrade as they make another championship push.
For Wiz it saves immediate money allowing them to keep Gortat and Ariza, and perhaps sign a FA like McRoberts. Perkins would be a solid backup for Gortat, and he only has 1 yr left in place of Nene 2 yrs left on his massive deal.
We could probably also come out with OKC's #29 (they also have 21). At 29 we could possibly come away with Napier, McGary or Stokes.
Dark Faze wrote:I've thinking more and more about innovative schemes and breaking the mold of traditional basketball. It started with me arguing with a fan about Love going to Phoenix with Melo--I thought it could work if Love bulked up to play C full time. It probably would be great in the East due to not having to kill yourself against elite competition every night, but they'd probably break down by time the post season came.
The more I watch the Heat play and while watching the Hawks/Pacers series, I'm convinced that the future is having an elite shooting stretch 5, and making up for the lack of size with a Miami Heat sort of defense in regards to their rotations--soft zone schemes, immediately flooding and triple teaming any sort of penetration, hard tough closeouts on shooters, switching on PNR's--just a completely team focused defense rather than putting a ton of faith on a rim protecting C. There are times where Miamis defense is simply stifling despite their lack of size--and it's all because of how locked in they are in terms of their defensive concepts. They'll triple team duncan and then still find ways to rate in a way to get to shooters.
And it makes much more sense for us when you consider a guy like Wall, who's talents are being nullified by our system where you have Nene and Gortat constantly occupying the paint.
Give me someone like Ryan Anderson or Frye at the 5. Ariza at the 4. Webster at the 3. Just for a few games to see what it would be like for Wall to have all that open court space and to be able to kick out to shooters with his elite vision and ability to make cross court passes. We make up for it defensively by running a scheme where we pack the paint and force teams to take the open jumpshots and make them at a high percentage.
It will never happen though, but damn its something I'd like to see at least once.
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:dckingsfan wrote:nate33 wrote:As I said before, if they lose both Adams and Perkins in the process of acquiring Nene, it's questionable if they are any better at all. What exactly are they going to do when Nene misses 30 games due to injury? All they would have accomplished is to get older, more expensive, and more injury prone.
Adams is part of their "win now mode". They're not going to trade him unless it's for a full-time, top 10ish starting center, capable of playing 2800 minutes in a season.
Yep, Adams is a solid C right now - better than Perkins. They would probably do Perkins for Nene - but that is about it. Good chance that he is a top 20 C next year.
+ don't forget that our FO loves Nene - count on him being here next year...
Question.
Had we drafted Adams, given Randy's preference for seasoned vets and his win or else ultimatum, would the young man have played enough for us to know what we have?
nate33 wrote:SUPERBALLMAN wrote:dckingsfan wrote:
Yep, Adams is a solid C right now - better than Perkins. They would probably do Perkins for Nene - but that is about it. Good chance that he is a top 20 C next year.
+ don't forget that our FO loves Nene - count on him being here next year...
Nene for Perkins might not be a bad idea.
Works in trade checker. OKC could be down, would give them a big time talent upgrade as they make another championship push.
For Wiz it saves immediate money allowing them to keep Gortat and Ariza, and perhaps sign a FA like McRoberts. Perkins would be a solid backup for Gortat, and he only has 1 yr left in place of Nene 2 yrs left on his massive deal.
We could probably also come out with OKC's #29 (they also have 21). At 29 we could possibly come away with Napier, McGary or Stokes.
Yes, I've been championing this trade for a while. Though I wouldn't use the savings to immediately sign a free agent like McRoberts (unless it's for a 1-year deal). With Nene gone and Gortat and Ariza resigned to reasonable deals, we would be within sniffing distance of having max cap room next year (depending on the cost of Gortat and Ariza, and the amount the salary cap increases). That would give us a chance of signing Love outright (if he chooses to go to a team like Sacramento as a 1-year rental), or it gives us a ton of leverage to negotiate a Love S&T with extremely favorable terms (if Love stays with Minnesota).