Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[dckingsfan]

It is just harder to realize that Trump isn't the culprit since he is such an a$$w!pe. It is our baseline budgeting and unwillingness to go after the cost drivers in our social services programs.

Trump isn't the culprit but he's a culprit. He's absolutely making the situation worse and not better by a lot.

I don't disagree. But. If we had to give him a percentage number, it would be .000001.

The damage was done previously and now the programs that we love are going to be cut. No two ways about it and it isn't on Trump.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I don't disagree. But. If we had to give him a percentage number, it would be .000001.

The damage was done previously and now the programs that we love are going to be cut. No two ways about it and it isn't on Trump.

Fair enough. I agree with this. I guess the point here is that he's basically setting things up to have the largest possible cuts targeting the cost drivers the least, that's all. So at least for my own part, it isn't so much about him being the cause, but rather him being in a position to try and make the best of an awful situation and instead attempting to make the worst of it. I mean, this whole tax cuts, wall-building, spending thing has further ramifications. Want gun control? That isn't going to be super expensive compared to other social programs, but with the financial management we see right now... not so much.

And while spending is absolutely out of control, that chart of yours made it pretty clear that those spending spikes were basically entirely driven by corporate welfare until nothing was affordable anymore. Corporate welfare needs to be first on the list of things cut since it's a massive driver of the spending in question, but outrageously, it was just increased.

[nate33]

I've been bombarding you with ideas superior to yours since about 2006. Has it worked? I can't tell.

You've bombarded me with pithy comments like this. But not better ideas. Ending the criminal justice system and doing everything via civil courts? Really?

One thing we know - the war on drugs and the war on crime were/are a disaster. They are only enablers for politicians to get elected. So, we need a better idea than what we have. At this point I would rather go with civil courts.

The fundamental problem with using the civil courts is if you have no money, there are no consequences for crime.

Also, the war on drugs wasn't necessarily a disaster. Drug offenses have been used for years as leverage to get plea bargains and informants to help stop truly violent crime. That said, I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana and other mild drugs. I'm just not convinced it would be wise to legalize heroine and cocaine.

[cammac]

It is just harder to realize that Trump isn't the culprit since he is such an a$$w!pe. It is our baseline budgeting and unwillingness to go after the cost drivers in our social services programs.

Trump isn't the culprit but he's a culprit. He's absolutely making the situation worse and not better by a lot.

I don't disagree. But. If we had to give him a percentage number, it would be .000001.

The damage was done previously and now the programs that we love are going to be cut. No two ways about it and it isn't on Trump.

The problem is that no politician in your great nation will stand up and say Bull Sh_t that our nation is in trouble and there isn't free lunch. Dckingfan you know it has to be done Canada did it other nations have as well. Just balancing a budget even without surpluses will eliminate 20%+ of the national debt within 10 years by the growth of GDP. The current track is unsustainable and will likely incur a period of high inflation which makes the situation worse.

[cammac]

Tick Tock,Tick Tock
When will Kushner be indicted?
I believe that Mueller is targeting him as the 1st. in the family to face charges!
Why he knows what prison is like from his fathers incarceration and since he isn't a blood relative is easily the most easy to flip. His personal and corporate finances are a mess and he likely knows everything about the other members of the family including the Trumpster.

Plus because he can't pass a security clearance Kelly will have to try to fire him.

Special counsel Robert Mueller's interest in Jared Kushner has expanded beyond his contacts with Russia and now includes his efforts to secure financing for his company from foreign investors during the presidential transition, according to people familiar with the inquiry

The White House and a Russian state-owned bank have very different explanations for why the bank’s chief executive and Jared Kushner held a secret meeting during the presidential transition in December

known for advancing the strategic interests of Russian President Vladi­mir Putin and for its role in a past U.S. espionage case, into the center of the controversy enveloping the White House. And it has highlighted the role played by the bank’s 48-year-old chief executive, Sergey Gorkov, a graduate of the academy of the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the domestic intelligence arm of the former Soviet KGB, who was appointed by Putin to the post less than a year before his encounter with Kushner.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/19/1742910/-Mueller-has-his-eye-on-Jared-Kushner-s-desperate-search-for-money-and-one-very-odd-meeting

[cammac]

Mueller lays a new charge today against Van Der Zwaan a associate of Rick Gates.
It is obvious that Gates has flipped and likelihood of more people being charged but still the biggies for Friday surprise.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/374604-mueller-charges-man-who-communicated-with-gates-with-making-false

[nate33]

Mueller lays a new charge today against Van Der Zwaan a associate of Rick Gates.
It is obvious that Gates has flipped and likelihood of more people being charged but still the biggies for Friday surprise.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/374604-mueller-charges-man-who-communicated-with-gates-with-making-false

So far, all that stuff has to do with Manafort and his shady money laundering operations long before he was ever on Trump's campaign. There is nothing we have seen so far that indicates there's a connection to Trump.

[cammac]

Mueller lays a new charge today against Van Der Zwaan a associate of Rick Gates.
It is obvious that Gates has flipped and likelihood of more people being charged but still the biggies for Friday surprise.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/374604-mueller-charges-man-who-communicated-with-gates-with-making-false

So far, all that stuff has to do with Manafort and his shady money laundering operations long before he was ever on Trump's campaign. There is nothing we have seen so far that indicates there's a connection to Trump.

Yes Nate Trump is being considered for "Sainthood" it is the drip,drip,drip of gathering evidence against Manafort who was responsible for the Republicans changes in the platform about the Ukraine. If Manafort flips it will be because he has concrete evidence on Kushner, Don Jr, & likely Trump.
Your pathetic attempts to distract people is futile on this board except with your cohort SD20. I wonder how the two of you would interact in real life?
Your white bias and his inter-racial background.

[Ruzious]

Mueller lays a new charge today against Van Der Zwaan a associate of Rick Gates.
It is obvious that Gates has flipped and likelihood of more people being charged but still the biggies for Friday surprise.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/374604-mueller-charges-man-who-communicated-with-gates-with-making-false

So far, all that stuff has to do with Manafort and his shady money laundering operations long before he was ever on Trump's campaign. There is nothing we have seen so far that indicates there's a connection to Trump.

And that may be perfectly fine. The problem is when Trump continually makes it out to be that the whole thing is about him, and all his efforts go into discrediting the investigation. When someone does that, it naturally raises suspicions. The biggest problem in this whole investigation may very well be that he simply won't just shut the hell up, because all his protests might be the biggest red flag that the FBI sees. We have a lot of protesters now in the US, but nobody protests like our president - it's literally unprecedented. And we'sall thinks he dust protest way too much.

[dckingsfan]

I don't disagree. But. If we had to give him a percentage number, it would be .000001.

The damage was done previously and now the programs that we love are going to be cut. No two ways about it and it isn't on Trump.

Fair enough. I agree with this. I guess the point here is that he's basically setting things up to have the largest possible cuts targeting the cost drivers the least, that's all. So at least for my own part, it isn't so much about him being the cause, but rather him being in a position to try and make the best of an awful situation and instead attempting to make the worst of it. I mean, this whole tax cuts, wall-building, spending thing has further ramifications. Want gun control? That isn't going to be super expensive compared to other social programs, but with the financial management we see right now... not so much.

And while spending is absolutely out of control, that chart of yours made it pretty clear that those spending spikes were basically entirely driven by corporate welfare until nothing was affordable anymore. Corporate welfare needs to be first on the list of things cut since it's a massive driver of the spending in question, but outrageously, it was just increased.

I agree with the rest of what you said - but the chart has nothing to do with corporate welfare. It only has to do with spending and spending percentages. It is the reason that those programs described previously are being cut.

Corporate welfare had nothing to do with the percentage changes in WHERE we spent our money. And if you want to know if we raised taxes in the country, see the figure below. We absolutely did - to where we are one of the highest taxed countries in the world.

Now, if you are saying that our tax system is broken - violent agreement. Show me the politician that wants to cut all the carveouts and I will follow him. But both parties love their carveouts and vilify the other side for theirs.

Again - this isn't about Trump other than he has ZERO idea of how to get us out of the hole. But then, neither Bernie or Hillary had a plan either.

[dckingsfan]

You've bombarded me with pithy comments like this. But not better ideas. Ending the criminal justice system and doing everything via civil courts? Really?

One thing we know - the war on drugs and the war on crime were/are a disaster. They are only enablers for politicians to get elected. So, we need a better idea than what we have. At this point I would rather go with civil courts.

The fundamental problem with using the civil courts is if you have no money, there are no consequences for crime.

Also, the war on drugs wasn't necessarily a disaster. Drug offenses have been used for years as leverage to get plea bargains and informants to help stop truly violent crime. That said, I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana and other mild drugs. I'm just not convinced it would be wise to legalize heroine and cocaine.

The war on drugs and crime were disasters for our growth, GDP and state budgets (deficits). There is no disputing the financial impact. It is stupid and needs to stop. Eventually (like California) we won't be able to afford the incarceration. So, it is coming to an end one way or the other - might as well do it the intelligent way.

[cammac]

One thing we know - the war on drugs and the war on crime were/are a disaster. They are only enablers for politicians to get elected. So, we need a better idea than what we have. At this point I would rather go with civil courts.

The fundamental problem with using the civil courts is if you have no money, there are no consequences for crime.

Also, the war on drugs wasn't necessarily a disaster. Drug offenses have been used for years as leverage to get plea bargains and informants to help stop truly violent crime. That said, I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana and other mild drugs. I'm just not convinced it would be wise to legalize heroine and cocaine.

The war on drugs and crime were disasters for our growth, GDP and state budgets (deficits). There is no disputing the financial impact. It is stupid and needs to stop. Eventually (like California) we won't be able to afford the incarceration. So, it is coming to an end one way or the other - might as well do it the intelligent way.

Your assertion that the USA is one of the most highly taxed nations is simply untrue in fact it is one of the lowest taxed nations as a % of the GDP. The OCED average is 34% of GDP and USA is 26% only Korea, Chile, Ireland and Mexico are lower.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

[gtn130]

Mueller lays a new charge today against Van Der Zwaan a associate of Rick Gates.
It is obvious that Gates has flipped and likelihood of more people being charged but still the biggies for Friday surprise.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/374604-mueller-charges-man-who-communicated-with-gates-with-making-false

So far, all that stuff has to do with Manafort and his shady money laundering operations long before he was ever on Trump's campaign. There is nothing we have seen so far that indicates there's a connection to Trump.

[gtn130]

Read on Twitter

[nate33]

Read on Twitter

Point #1 is false. Their aim was to cause chaos.

[closg00]

Mueller lays a new charge today against Van Der Zwaan a associate of Rick Gates.
It is obvious that Gates has flipped and likelihood of more people being charged but still the biggies for Friday surprise.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/374604-mueller-charges-man-who-communicated-with-gates-with-making-false

So far, all that stuff has to do with Manafort and his shady money laundering operations long before he was ever on Trump's campaign. There is nothing we have seen so far that indicates there's a connection to Trump.

You are correct, but there is a bit of smoke and many areas to be explored re: Trump


*Trump aide J.D. Gordon initially said that Trump directed him to support weakening party platform with-respect the Ukraine, Putin's position. This was the only part of the platform Trump changed. Gordon later back-tracked on his statement when it got hot, we'll have to see what he told Mueller

*Micheal Flynn took that call from the Russian Ambassador and talked the Russian's down from retaliating for Obama throwing Russian's out of the U.S. Flynn was reporting to someone, he doesn't make-up foreign policy. Again this is another area where we'll have to wait and see who was directing pro Putin actions, it's gonna be Manafort or Trump.

There is definitely some smoke, the Russians were actively supporting Trump, was it out of the kindness of their hearts? Trump still won't enact the sanctions.

[dckingsfan]

The fundamental problem with using the civil courts is if you have no money, there are no consequences for crime.

Also, the war on drugs wasn't necessarily a disaster. Drug offenses have been used for years as leverage to get plea bargains and informants to help stop truly violent crime. That said, I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana and other mild drugs. I'm just not convinced it would be wise to legalize heroine and cocaine.

The war on drugs and crime were disasters for our growth, GDP and state budgets (deficits). There is no disputing the financial impact. It is stupid and needs to stop. Eventually (like California) we won't be able to afford the incarceration. So, it is coming to an end one way or the other - might as well do it the intelligent way.

Your assertion that the USA is one of the most highly taxed nations is simply untrue in fact it is one of the lowest taxed nations as a % of the GDP. The OCED average is 34% of GDP and USA is 26% only Korea, Chile, Ireland and Mexico are lower.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

We are at over 40%!!!! this is such a misleading brief. If they add in State and Local taxes it just isn't true. And notice the trend. And a good deal of the local and state spending is due to programs that the fed mandates and the states have to implement.

[closg00]

Read on Twitter

Point #1 is false. Their aim was to cause chaos.

You obviously have not read the indictment, the Russian effort was to help Trump, and hurt Clinton.

Defendants? operations included
supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump (?Trump Campaign?) and
disparaging Hillary Clinton. Defendants made various expenditures to carry out those activities,

On or about February 10, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators internally
circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted to
social media accounts. Specialists were instructed to
post content that focused on ?politics in the and to ?use any opportunity to
criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump?we support them).?

Read the indictment
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/text-full-mueller-indictment-on-russian-election-case-415670

[nate33]

Read on Twitter

Point #1 is false. Their aim was to cause chaos.

You obviously have not read the indictment, the Russian effort was to help Trump, and hurt Clinton.

Defendants? operations included
supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump (?Trump Campaign?) and
disparaging Hillary Clinton. Defendants made various expenditures to carry out those activities,

On or about February 10, 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators internally
circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted to
social media accounts. Specialists were instructed to
post content that focused on ?politics in the and to ?use any opportunity to
criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump?we support them).?

Read the indictment
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/text-full-mueller-indictment-on-russian-election-case-415670

So what exactly was the point of the anti-Trump protests they organized?

[nate33]

I know none of you are interested in any other perspective other than your echo chamber, but just in case, I suggest you read this article about Trump not being soft on Russia:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/is-president-trump-much-tougher-on-russia-than-obama/article/2649509

Trump hasn't imposed sanctions because he is reserving it as a threat. However, Trump has armed the Ukranians, which is a much more aggressively anti-Russian stance than anything Obama did. Did your precious NY Times or Washington Post mention that?