Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[DCZards]

Trump supporters are fine with Russia paying to have US troops killed. Nate is fine with killing off US troops if it gets us closer to a MAGA ethnostate

This is a cheap shot, imo, especially given that Nate rarely posts here nowadays and we don't know his opinion on this Russia issue, which is totally unrelated to the idea of an "ethnostate."

[Ruzious]

I think the reality is - It's really hard to have a politics thread in a sports board. I used to loathe this thread - particularly when a poster named Greendale dominated it. This thread has lasted forever because we have Mods here (including nate) that have done a terrific job, imo.

The terrific mods let SD20 turn this thread into his personal right wing fan fiction blog for about a year.

It's cool that Nate was a good mod in your mind, but is that really a reason to excuse racism? Pretty bizarre moral framework you've cooked up here.

I think you're jumping to conclusions there.

[gtn130]

Trump supporters are fine with Russia paying to have US troops killed. Nate is fine with killing off US troops if it gets us closer to a MAGA ethnostate

This is a cheap shot, imo, especially given that Nate rarely posts here nowadays and we don't know his opinion on this Russia issue, which is totally unrelated to the idea of an "ethnostate."

It doesn't strike me as remotely unfair when it's 100% correct and nobody doubts it. He's free to set the record straight if he cares to.

[montestewart]

You're just poking me to get me to say crazy stuff aren't you doc

Yeah, cause you need some incentive

[Zonkerbl]

I grew up in a Jewish household where basically the *only* Jewish thing we did was talk about the Holocaust, how it happened in Jewish history over and over and over again, and how if you accomplish one thing in life, it should be preventing something like that from ever happening again, *to anybody.* I'm not going to apologize for being true to my self. Preventing another Holocaust is *the* number one priority for me. It Trumps (hardyhar) everything else.

I will chase wannabe Nazis out of this thread until my dying breath.

[bsilver]

If anyone hasn't seen this yet, it's definitely worth reading. The beginning:

NASHVILLE — I have rape-colored skin. My light-brown-blackness is a living testament to the rules, the practices, the causes of the Old South.

If there are those who want to remember the legacy of the Confederacy, if they want monuments, well, then, my body is a monument. My skin is a monument.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/opinion/confederate-monuments-racism.html

[doclinkin]

I grew up in a Jewish household where basically the *only* Jewish thing we did was talk about the Holocaust, how it happened in Jewish history over and over and over again, and how if you accomplish one thing in life, it should be preventing something like that from ever happening again, *to anybody.* I'm not going to apologize for being true to my self. Preventing another Holocaust is *the* number one priority for me. It Trumps (hardyhar) everything else.

I will chase wannabe Nazis out of this thread until my dying breath.

Whereas I think violence is the language of the inarticulate, and feel like, when combined with a democracy that is working, the FIrst amendment and right to protest are what inoculates us against in part against dangerous and seething hidden resentments. This to me is the sort of thing that gave rise to Brownshirts. People who felt silenced and marginalized within their own country, suffering economic downturn, then looked for causes of resentment. A demagogue pointing out scapegoats was the easy answer. Personally I think that goes both ways. It is way too easy to find enemies, but pitting working people against struggling people is not healthy. I'd rather have dialogue. In the case of Nate I've actually seen him cede an argument when presented with facts, and reconsider a strongly held position. That intrigues me and is what actually drew me into this thread ofter years of avoiding it.

The same way I wouldn't presume to silence a zonker -- hell no, because yes I will happily poke you just to watch you rage and bang on the bars of your cage I would prefer to hear from and understand people whose viewpoints I disagree with.

It's doc's maxim: "If not for the internet, the Unibomber".

If we can have dialogue over the difficult isssues without attacking and destroying and doxxing each other, then maybe we can live up to the BEST ideals of our founding documents. The Founders themselves may have been flawed, but their hopes and visions provided a framework that someday just might work at bringing a lasting and dynamic fellowship among people of wildly different backgrounds and beliefs.

Civilization.

It's worth trying at some point. For all that I have been protesting since birth, I'm a Patriot. I love NBA basketball, I follow the Wizards. The Wizards don't succeed if the sport fails. If Humanity is the sport, America is my team. I think we ought to live up to our best ideals and spread them and share them and encourage them throughout civilization. Including here on a message board with people who disagree with me.

[Wizardspride]

Trump supporters are fine with Russia paying to have US troops killed. Nate is fine with killing off US troops if it gets us closer to a MAGA ethnostate

This is a cheap shot, imo, especially given that Nate rarely posts here nowadays and we don't know his opinion on this Russia issue, which is totally unrelated to the idea of an "ethnostate."

It doesn't strike me as remotely unfair when it's 100% correct and nobody doubts it. He's free to set the record straight if he cares to.

He's not going to "set the record straight" because you're spot on...and he knows it.

[Zonkerbl]

In the case of Nate I've actually seen him cede an argument when presented with facts, and reconsider a strongly held position. That intrigues me and is what actually drew me into this thread ofter years of avoiding it.

Pics or it didn't happen . As someone who actually saw a diehard creationist change his mind over the course of a few years of earnest discussion, I think I would have noticed this if Nate had ever done it. Maybe it was before my time. It's one of the reasons I'm so impatient with him, is because he *never* admits he's wrong, just quietly disappears for awhile and then comes back with the same wrong arguments, hoping I won't be there to correct him. C'mon man.

Nate, the reason why I am always, always, always up in your face smacking your arguments out of the park is because they are, very often, wrong, wrong, wrong. I expect more from you. I'm anxious to hear a genuine conservative perspective on things, but it is irritating as *hell* when the stuff you say can be disproven with a 30 second google search.

I genuinely enjoyed the discussion we had about crime statistics, for example. The bias in those numbers are nuanced and difficult to disprove, and I learned a lot from researching how they were wrong and then pointing it out to you. Btw it was something my daughter was studying at the time and we bonded over it. It was an interesting back and forth that cemented to me the need for the abolition, or at least drastic defunding, of prisons (and therefore the police also).

If I'm a jerk about it I'm sorry. You're the one with the majority opinion and I feel like I'm punching up when I'm talking to you, that you can take it knowing you have all of white society backing your views. Makes me kinda mad thinking about it, but I shouldn't take it out on you, the messenger.

[payitforward]

Politically, I disagree with nate on pretty much everything. Moreover, I don't think it's just that he's "wrong" or "incorrect." I think he holds opinions that are odious & dangerous.

Leaving aside his opinions for a moment, his predictions of political fact & outcomes have proven to be wrong as well -- on significant issues. For example, in the 2016 Presidential campaign he claimed that as President, Donald Trump would not be a social conservative. That prediction was, obviously, entirely wrong. I'd be impressed if nate recognized his own error & pointed to it explicitly. I'd have been especially impressed if he did that without being prompted on the subject, as I have just done, but doing it at all would be a good thing on its own.

It would be good, because recognizing that an empirical fact has been radically different from what you expected & predicted is a first step towards correcting one's belief in, commitment to, a radical ideology.

I.e. the next step is to wonder what else you might be wrong about. &, of course, wherever/however light gets in, it's a good thing.

The mention of "light" puts me in mind of the reason I don't have any interest in censoring nate. It was Justice Brandeis (a Jew like me & Zonk) who wrote "sunlight is... the best disinfectant." I'd rather see "opinions that are odious & dangerous" freely expressed, brought into the light, than for them to be guarded in some dark privacy.

Moreover, just talking about nate for a moment, it must be obvious that political opinions can be in very substantial contradiction with the way one lives. nate closely follows the "blackest" of American professional sports. He has mentioned a "man crush" on Brad Beal. He plays pick up basketball twice a week (& therefore is likely to play with & against African Americans).

IOW, he's a complicated guy. Being complicated is a good thing -- it means that you have lots of stuff going on in your head. & that means there are lots of places to address your fixed opinions, lots of ways to dialog with you. Good. & that's my goal: dialogue.

[Zonkerbl]

I am the sunlight that disinfects, when people come to this page to express their 1st amendment protected rights to state vile odious things. To get chased out of this thread after exposing your hideous inner thoughts, you have to show up to speak your vile thoughts in the first place. This is the market place of ideas and I will cash you out.

[Zonkerbl]

I am *the bat.*

[payitforward]

Well... it does look like we are done with "daoneandonly." That's a good thing! -- whoever/whatever chased him away.

[montestewart]

I am the sunlight that disinfects

DC

I will cash you out.

Marvel

[montestewart]

In the case of Nate I've actually seen him cede an argument when presented with facts, and reconsider a strongly held position. That intrigues me and is what actually drew me into this thread ofter years of avoiding it.

Pics or it didn't happen . As someone who actually saw a diehard creationist change his mind over the course of a few years of earnest discussion, I think I would have noticed this if Nate had ever done it. Maybe it was before my time.

Rare as it might be, I could swear he conceded a point or two to you. You do tend to have your economics points lined up well.

[Ruzious]

I am the sunlight that disinfects

DC

Or DT. He wants to try injecting patients with sunlight... if chlorox doesn't work.

Speaking of that family of clowns: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/eric-trumps-tweet-vanishes-after-his-attempt-to-spread-clinton-epstein-connection-backfires/ar-BB16jhE1?li=BBnbfcL

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

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[Zonkerbl]

Well... it does look like we are done with "daoneandonly." That's a good thing! -- whoever/whatever chased him away.

Wasn't me - he drove me away for a but

[Zonkerbl]

In the case of Nate I've actually seen him cede an argument when presented with facts, and reconsider a strongly held position. That intrigues me and is what actually drew me into this thread ofter years of avoiding it.

Pics or it didn't happen . As someone who actually saw a diehard creationist change his mind over the course of a few years of earnest discussion, I think I would have noticed this if Nate had ever done it. Maybe it was before my time.

Rare as it might be, I could swear he conceded a point or two to you. You do tend to have your economics points lined up well.

Bah, that doesn't count

[FAH1223]

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