Draft Thread Continued. 2011 part two...

[fishercob]

I don't even think all the supposed "mocks" are trying to predict the draft as much as lay out their own opinions on their view of the talent hierarchy. But Chad Ford definitely tries to predict the selection order based on his talks with GMs (who are usually lying to him), so maybe he'd be the ticket. However, for this draft in particular, I doubt anyone is really going to be able to lay it out particularly well.

Thank you for bringing this up. It bears reminding that while Givony is a great scout, Ford obliterated him on DRaft Night last year predicting what was actually going to happen. I do think that Ford gets good info from front offices -- or is at least able to sift through the BS to report/project good stuff. Ford's a good reporter.

And that leads me to what seems to be an interesting development: Kawhi Leonard has passed Vesely on Ford's mocks. He has the Wiz taking him at 4 if the entire lotto holds true to form, or even in some cases if we drop to 6. Ford would appear to believe that Leonard is very much in the mix for the Wiz and has Shawn Marion-type potential.

[fishercob]

To add: I've never seen Leonard play. I'd like a full breakdown from our scouting department: CCJ, Sev, etc!

I know his J is suspect right now, but he seems to be a worker who has already improved. I'd really have no problem with coming away from this draft with the next Shawn Marion...

[Rafael122]

I watched a couple of his tournament games and while I like his game, I wouldn't take him top 4.

[fishercob]

Chad Ford making his case for Leonard as a top-5 pick:

The San Diego State forward remains a bit of an enigma to NBA scouts. He ranked as just the 56th-best high school prospect in the class of 2009 by ESPNU and didn't really come on until his senior year in high school.

As a freshman he drew raves for his athletic ability, motor and rebounding, but scouts struggled to see exactly how he fit at the next level. This year he helped lead the Aztecs to one of the best records in college basketball and drew serious attention from scouts. But after the season, the NBA was still largely split on what his pro potential was.

While we had Leonard in the top 14 of our Big Board most of the year, a number of NBA executives were much more pessimistic about his future. They pointed to his "tweener" status and subpar perimeter shooting as concerns. A few weeks ago, one GM told me he thought Leonard, was, at best, a role player at the next level.

I respectfully disagree, as do a handful of NBA execs and scouts. I was blown away by Leonard at workouts. Not only is his physical profile impressive (huge hands, long wing span, NBA body) but also he's much more skilled then your typical high-energy forward.

Leonard has been working on his jump shot since the season ended and was stroking it from NBA 3-point range the two days I was in the gym. He demonstrated excellent ball handling skills for a player his size -- both are prerequisites for a NBA small forward. He also has the ability to guard the 2, 3 and 4 at the next level.

Leonard proved to be a real gym rat as well. He was the first guy in the gym and the last one to leave both days I was there. On Tuesday I arrived at 9 a.m. and left at 5:30 -- Leonard was there the whole time working on various things; he must have shot 1,000 jumpers.

I've been trying to find a good NBA comp for him all year, and I think the best may be the Blazers' Gerald Wallace. Leonard has the same type of motor and toughness and is more skilled than you think. If he keeps shooting the ball like he did on Tuesday and Wednesday, I believe he could end up being a top-5 pick in the draft. We've moved him up to No. 5 on our Big Board after seeing what he brings to the table.

He may not be a superstar at the next level, but it's hard to figure how he misses as a 10-year NBA player with that work ethic, physical profile and motor.

[GhostsOfGil]

chad ford:

chadfordinsider Chad Ford
Chris Singleton just awesome in 3-on-3. I could see both Charlotte and Utah taking a long look in the lottery.

[Ruzious]

Re Leonard, somehow, a 3 who's never had a jump shot doesn't thrill me with a high pick, but he wouldn't be as vomit-inducing a pick as Vesely would.

How's that for a vote of confidence?

[WizarDynasty]

definitely not a shawn marion clone based on on his poor block shots per game.

[fishercob]

Re Leonard, somehow, a 3 who's never had a jump shot doesn't thrill me with a high pick, but he wouldn't be as vomit-inducing a pick as Vesely would.

How's that for a vote of confidence?

I wouldn't be so dismissive. I'm guessing that Leonard has never had to shoot from the outside very much to be effective given his athleticism and how hard he seems to go. He shot 76% from the line this year, so it's not like he can't shoot -- he just hasn't developed a 3. And Ford is saying he's already done great work on it and is shooting the lights out from NBA distance in workouts. Given his reputation as a tireless worker, this strikes me as definite reason for optimism.

I totally agree about Vesely -- huge red flag that he shoots so poor from the line. But you know, Scottie Pippen shot 27% from three over his first 7 years in the league. Let's not dismiss this kid because he's not Larry Bird yet.

[fishercob]

definitely not a shawn marion clone based on on his poor block shots per game.

There's more to defense than blocking shots. But you may be 100% correct -- but just b/c he's not a "marion clone" doesn't mean he can't be a great defender. His block numbers in college are more in line with Gerald Wallace's.

[spaceman_E]

I don't understand any Leonard hype.

Hustler, good athlete. Too small to be a 4, but very long. Can't shoot or finish. Decent ball handler/passer.

Without looking you'd think this was a 2nd round/fringe prospect.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

DWill/Kanter - first pick

Singleton/Faried/Morris - second pick

Smith/Jenkins - third pick

wet dream

Derrick Williams, Justin Harper, Ben Hansbrough is my dream draft at this point!

Williams steps in as the starting 3, with solid vet Lewis to backup and mentor.

Blatche (if he's still here) starts opposite at the 4, with offense/defense subs Harper/Booker.

McGee and Seraphin remain at center... Blatche also gets run at the 5, as well as Williams/Lewis some pt at pf, Nick Young some time at sf as well as starting sg, backed by Crawford. Wall at point of course, backed by Crawford & Hansbrough.

But I like the size and rebounding of our forwards with Blatche/Williams, Booker, Lewis, Harper. I like the perimeter shooting we now can surround Wall with Williams, Harper, Lewis, Young.

Not thrilled with the center collection of McGee, Blatche, Seraphin, NDiaye.. maybe we can address it in free agency, maybe we can deal Blatche for a center, or maybe McGee will step up this year.


But I really like Derrick Williams for this team. He's got all the best qualities of The Captain & Tough Juice rolled into one. I think he and Wall would give us the 2 true building blocks we need.

Justin Harper at 18 would be a steal, and a guy who could have starting ability at PF. A sweet shooter, can knock down 3's with anyone, nice size and length. He immediately provides an alternative to Booker off the bench.

Hansbrough gives us a hard-nosed smart backup point who can knock the 3. Kinda reminds me of when we had Brent Price coming in off the bench for Robert Pack, but Hansbrough plays harder and will be a better pro than BPrice.

[Dark Faze]

And that leads me to what seems to be an interesting development: Kawhi Leonard has passed Vesely on Ford's mocks. He has the Wiz taking him at 4 if the entire lotto holds true to form, or even in some cases if we drop to 6. Ford would appear to believe that Leonard is very much in the mix for the Wiz and has Shawn Marion-type potential.

Leonard?

That is just laughable. I'm just going to ignore Ford...

[thinker07]

DWill/Kanter - first pick

Singleton/Faried/Morris - second pick

Smith/Jenkins - third pick

wet dream

Derrick Williams, Justin Harper, Ben Hansbrough is my dream draft at this point!

Williams steps in as the starting 3, with solid vet Lewis to backup and mentor.

Blatche (if he's still here) starts opposite at the 4, with offense/defense subs Harper/Booker.

McGee and Seraphin remain at center... Blatche also gets run at the 5, as well as Williams/Lewis some pt at pf, Nick Young some time at sf as well as starting sg, backed by Crawford. Wall at point of course, backed by Crawford & Hansbrough.

But I like the size and rebounding of our forwards with Blatche/Williams, Booker, Lewis, Harper. I like the perimeter shooting we now can surround Wall with Williams, Harper, Lewis, Young.

Not thrilled with the center collection of McGee, Blatche, Seraphin, NDiaye.. maybe we can address it in free agency, maybe we can deal Blatche for a center, or maybe McGee will step up this year.


But I really like Derrick Williams for this team. He's got all the best qualities of The Captain & Tough Juice rolled into one. I think he and Wall would give us the 2 true building blocks we need.

Justin Harper at 18 would be a steal, and a guy who could have starting ability at PF. A sweet shooter, can knock down 3's with anyone, nice size and length. He immediately provides an alternative to Booker off the bench.

Hansbrough gives us a hard-nosed smart backup point who can knock the 3. Kinda reminds me of when we had Brent Price coming in off the bench for Robert Pack, but Hansbrough plays harder and will be a better pro than BPrice.

I like Harper, but he really isn't an NBA 4. I'm a GW/Atlantic-10 guy and I've watched him for years now. Earlier this year I watched him and happened to be sitting next to an NBA scout (Eastern Conference) who was there specifically scouting Harper. He broke down Harper's game for me and he just didn't see the strength or toughness. He said that with his physique he should be averaging about 4 more rebounds per game. Harper really isn't an inside banger - he prefers to drift around the perimeter and isn't a high energy guy. He is tall but not very big. But he definitely has a great shooting touch.

He might fit with the Wiz pretty well - but oddly as kind of a stretch 3. I also don't think he fits as well with DWill as a pick because neither has much of a post game. I think a Kanter/Harper combo fits what the Wiz want. If we somehow get DWill, then I think we might be more likely to take a bigger player like Trey Thompkins/Markieff Morris/Singleton or more of a 2/3 swing guy like Klay Thompson/Jordan Hamilton/Marshon Brooks.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

DWill/Kanter - first pick

Singleton/Faried/Morris - second pick

Smith/Jenkins - third pick

wet dream

Derrick Williams, Justin Harper, Ben Hansbrough is my dream draft at this point!

Williams steps in as the starting 3, with solid vet Lewis to backup and mentor.

Blatche (if he's still here) starts opposite at the 4, with offense/defense subs Harper/Booker.

McGee and Seraphin remain at center... Blatche also gets run at the 5, as well as Williams/Lewis some pt at pf, Nick Young some time at sf as well as starting sg, backed by Crawford. Wall at point of course, backed by Crawford & Hansbrough.

But I like the size and rebounding of our forwards with Blatche/Williams, Booker, Lewis, Harper. I like the perimeter shooting we now can surround Wall with Williams, Harper, Lewis, Young.

Not thrilled with the center collection of McGee, Blatche, Seraphin, NDiaye.. maybe we can address it in free agency, maybe we can deal Blatche for a center, or maybe McGee will step up this year.


But I really like Derrick Williams for this team. He's got all the best qualities of The Captain & Tough Juice rolled into one. I think he and Wall would give us the 2 true building blocks we need.

Justin Harper at 18 would be a steal, and a guy who could have starting ability at PF. A sweet shooter, can knock down 3's with anyone, nice size and length. He immediately provides an alternative to Booker off the bench.

Hansbrough gives us a hard-nosed smart backup point who can knock the 3. Kinda reminds me of when we had Brent Price coming in off the bench for Robert Pack, but Hansbrough plays harder and will be a better pro than BPrice.

I like Harper, but he really isn't an NBA 4. I'm a GW/Atlantic-10 guy and I've watched him for years now. Earlier this year I watched him and happened to be sitting next to an NBA scout (Eastern Conference) who was there specifically scouting Harper. He broke down Harper's game for me and he just didn't see the strength or toughness. He said that with his physique he should be averaging about 4 more rebounds per game. Harper really isn't an inside banger - he prefers to drift around the perimeter and isn't a high energy guy. He is tall but not very big. But he definitely has a great shooting touch.

He might fit with the Wiz pretty well - but oddly as kind of a stretch 3. I also don't think he fits as well with DWill as a pick because neither has much of a post game. I think a Kanter/Harper combo fits what the Wiz want. If we somehow get DWill, then I think we might be more likely to take a bigger player like Trey Thompkins/Markieff Morris/Singleton or more of a 2/3 swing guy like Klay Thompson/Jordan Hamilton/Marshon Brooks.

True, I like Markieff Morris really, but I doubt with the draft now that he'll still be there. I also expect Singleton to be gone. Faried is another I'd be interested in who may be an option.

A Leonard/Faried/Hansbrough draft would certainly boost the effort and energy of this team!

[Benjammin]

Ford is clearly drinking the Leonard kool-aid. I wouldn't mind him at 8-10 or so. To be fair, this draft is so weak, that it doesn't take much for someone to bubble up into the top ten.

My list as of today...

1. Derrick Williams
2. Kyrie Irving (for his trade value)
3. Enes Kanter (maybe I'm drinking the kool-aid)
4-7 take your pick---Jonas Valanciunas, Bismack Biyombo, Kemba Walker--it's pretty painful--obviously I'd be open to dealing the pick for the right deal.

18. Chris Singleton, Jimmer Fredette (yeah I know he'll probably go earlier, but I think he'd be a good sub with his shooting ability), Tobias Harris, Kenneth Faried, one of the Morris twins (although neither might be there), Justin Harper

2nd Round pick---best Euro stash available, Charles Jenkins

[Dat2U]

For Kawhi Leonard, the two comps I kept coming up with were Joey Graham & Kirk Snyder.

I didn't see all this skill Ford raves about in games this year. Leonard also is a very good athlete but I don't think he's the hyper athletic freak Shawn Marion is. How many athletic modestly skilled SFs are out there? Guys like that are a dime-a-dozen. I don't see what separates Leonard from the rest.

I could live with him if he somehow fell to the Atlanta pick (is that an endorsement?) but top 4-6? I'm not a happy camper.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Dwill/faried/diebler

or

kanter/singleton/diebler

or

Tristan Thompson/Jordan Hamilton/Jordan Williams

I could live with any of these combos... The first pick should dictate the next two... Draft position will dictate the first pick

[verbal8]

Re Leonard, somehow, a 3 who's never had a jump shot doesn't thrill me with a high pick, but he wouldn't be as vomit-inducing a pick as Vesely would.

How's that for a vote of confidence?

I wouldn't be so dismissive. I'm guessing that Leonard has never had to shoot from the outside very much to be effective given his athleticism and how hard he seems to go. He shot 76% from the line this year, so it's not like he can't shoot -- he just hasn't developed a 3. And Ford is saying he's already done great work on it and is shooting the lights out from NBA distance in workouts. Given his reputation as a tireless worker, this strikes me as definite reason for optimism.

Marions 3 point shooting over his career is interesting. He started out a poor 3 point shooter. His 3rd year his accuracy picked up. His 4th year was very good(1.7 made/game .387 3PT%). The rest of his time in Phoenix he was average making a little over a shot a game. Since then he hasn't been much of a 3 point shooter(in attempts or accuracy).

[closg00]

Per the earlier discussion, here are Jordan Williams measurements.

Williams heard that feedback loud and clear from NBA scouts when he decided to leave school and he's spent the past six weeks in Vegas working on his body. The results are pretty impressive, as you can see here in this photo I tweeted Tuesday. He's lost 10 pounds, dropped from 13 percent body fat to 8 percent and really hasn't lost any strength but has gained quickness, explosiveness and agility in the process. He's also improved his jump shot over the course of the past six weeks as well. Williams might be slightly undersized for a center (he measured 6-8 3/4 in socks, 6-10 in shoes at Impact), but he's got a 6-11½ wingspan, is physical and is a proven commodity on the boards.

So at 6"9 -6"10 250, Jordan would be comparable to Kris Humpries +10-15 Lbs. We need a rebounder, but Willam's isn't a fit right now unless he drops to our 2nd round pick.....highly unlikely.

[Ruzious]

Per the earlier discussion, here are Jordan Williams measurements.

Williams heard that feedback loud and clear from NBA scouts when he decided to leave school and he's spent the past six weeks in Vegas working on his body. The results are pretty impressive, as you can see here in this photo I tweeted Tuesday. He's lost 10 pounds, dropped from 13 percent body fat to 8 percent and really hasn't lost any strength but has gained quickness, explosiveness and agility in the process. He's also improved his jump shot over the course of the past six weeks as well. Williams might be slightly undersized for a center (he measured 6-8 3/4 in socks, 6-10 in shoes at Impact), but he's got a 6-11½ wingspan, is physical and is a proven commodity on the boards.

So at 6"9 -6"10 250, Jordan would be comparable to Kris Humpries +10-15 Lbs. We need a rebounder, but Willam's isn't a fit right now unless he drops to our 2nd round pick.....highly unlikely.

That's an interesting comparison - since Humphries was an offensive-minded player in college where he put up big numbers. It took him something like 7 years in the NBA to become what he is - a banger who concentrates on doing the dirty work moreso than scoring. How long will it take for Williams to realize that he's never going to be a 20/10 guy in the NBA, so he has to concentrate on being the guy who does the dirty work and play defense? Gotta be very impressed by how Jordan changed his body so quickly.