Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[cammac]

The war on drugs and crime were disasters for our growth, GDP and state budgets (deficits). There is no disputing the financial impact. It is stupid and needs to stop. Eventually (like California) we won't be able to afford the incarceration. So, it is coming to an end one way or the other - might as well do it the intelligent way.

Your assertion that the USA is one of the most highly taxed nations is simply untrue in fact it is one of the lowest taxed nations as a % of the GDP. The OCED average is 34% of GDP and USA is 26% only Korea, Chile, Ireland and Mexico are lower.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

We are at over 40%!!!! this is such a misleading brief. If they add in State and Local taxes it just isn't true. And notice the trend. And a good deal of the local and state spending is due to programs that the fed mandates and the states have to implement.

This doesn't include State/Provincial Taxes or Municipal Taxes in any of these countries so not misleading.
I bought a new SUV for about $70,000 I had 13% added on HST of which 5% was Federal and 7% Provincial added $9,000 to the price of the vehicle. You know better dckingfan those figures are just federal portions of GDP.

[Zonkerbl]

You've bombarded me with pithy comments like this. But not better ideas. Ending the criminal justice system and doing everything via civil courts? Really?

One thing we know - the war on drugs and the war on crime were/are a disaster. They are only enablers for politicians to get elected. So, we need a better idea than what we have. At this point I would rather go with civil courts.

The fundamental problem with using the civil courts is if you have no money, there are no consequences for crime.

Also, the war on drugs wasn't necessarily a disaster. Drug offenses have been used for years as leverage to get plea bargains and informants to help stop truly violent crime. That said, I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana and other mild drugs. I'm just not convinced it would be wise to legalize heroine and cocaine.

Yeah, my thoughts on that have evolved somewhat - decriminalization definitely makes more sense on the user side, it being a victimless crime. The economics on the supplier side are trickier - the taxes you would have to impose, if heroin were legal, to keep consumption down to acceptable levels would be so high that you might as well prohibit it and be done with it. Don't have that problem with milder drugs.

And the use of cocaine and heroin for rehabilitation should be permitted.

Furthermore, penalizing someone with 100% of their disposable income is a *greater* penalty than penalizing them with 10%. Civil penalties hurt rich people less. Prison sentences destroy human capital and is an abysmally stupid way to punish people when civil penalties would work just as well.

[Kanyewest]

It is hard to take Cassidy too seriously on his ethics after what he tried to pass as his health care bill.

Watch on YouTube

It also remains unclear how strong Trump is against Russia because it took him a few months to finally approve of the sale. Now, let's see if Trump can pass the veto proof sanctions imposed by Congress because it seems like Trump is appeasing the Russians and they do not seem to respond well to Trump being nice to Putin and meeting Russian diplomats in private, which gets reported by the Russian media.

Trump also told Russians that firing 'Nut Job" Comey easead Pressure from investigation. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/us/politics/trump-russia-comey.html

Trump said in an interview that part of the reason he fired Comey was that he was implicating him in collusion. While I can see why people haven't implicated because the evidence isn't there yet, it is not a great look for Trump to fire people who have reported Russian meddling like Sally Yates and Comey. Ultimately, the more Trump interferes in an investigation (and he has had notions of firing Mueller), then Trump is going to look guilty, even if there is the possibility he has done nothing that should get him impeached. People will start to believe more that that the Steele dossier is real if Trump doesn't let the investigation run its course.

[cammac]

Good article in 538 on General Kelly and how he fooled the media that he would be the adult in the room rather than the ALT RIGHT zealot that he is.

But the media got it wrong, myself included. Kelly seems to have deeply-held views, particularly on immigration, that he has asserted — and they are not those of the McCain-like GOP establishment. Unlike past chiefs of staff, he hasn’t been careful to avoid bombastic comments. There was the attack on Wilson. But more recently, Kelly suggested that undocumented immigrants who had not yet signed up for the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program were “lazy.” He has also praised Confederate general Robert E. Lee. You might even call Kelly’s rhetoric Trumpian.

“Kelly is very different in style to President Trump, but similar in terms of the substance of his beliefs and positions on national security and immigration,” Bell said. “Kelly’s tenure at the Department of Homeland Security should have made that clear.”

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-the-media-bungled-the-john-kelly-story/

[FAH1223]

Your assertion that the USA is one of the most highly taxed nations is simply untrue in fact it is one of the lowest taxed nations as a % of the GDP. The OCED average is 34% of GDP and USA is 26% only Korea, Chile, Ireland and Mexico are lower.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

We are at over 40%!!!! this is such a misleading brief. If they add in State and Local taxes it just isn't true. And notice the trend. And a good deal of the local and state spending is due to programs that the fed mandates and the states have to implement.

This doesn't include State/Provincial Taxes or Municipal Taxes in any of these countries so not misleading.
I bought a new SUV for about $70,000 I had 13% added on HST of which 5% was Federal and 7% Provincial added $9,000 to the price of the vehicle. You know better dckingfan those figures are just federal portions of GDP.

Read on Twitter

Interesting.

[Ruzious]

I know none of you are interested in any other perspective other than your echo chamber, but just in case, I suggest you read this article about Trump not being soft on Russia:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/is-president-trump-much-tougher-on-russia-than-obama/article/2649509

Trump hasn't imposed sanctions because he is reserving it as a threat. However, Trump has armed the Ukranians, which is a much more aggressively anti-Russian stance than anything Obama did. Did your precious NY Times or Washington Post mention that?

If you were an outsider with no bone to pick, that would make absolutely no sense to you. He removed sanctions. Even you have to admit that the perception to any casual observer would be suspicion as to his motivations. I think most Republicans understand this - not just Democrats - so this is no echo chamber situation. You don't remove penalties for crimes to a convict because you want to reserve them as a threat. We're talking very basic common sense.

[dckingsfan]

Your assertion that the USA is one of the most highly taxed nations is simply untrue in fact it is one of the lowest taxed nations as a % of the GDP. The OCED average is 34% of GDP and USA is 26% only Korea, Chile, Ireland and Mexico are lower.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

We are at over 40%!!!! this is such a misleading brief. If they add in State and Local taxes it just isn't true. And notice the trend. And a good deal of the local and state spending is due to programs that the fed mandates and the states have to implement.

This doesn't include State/Provincial Taxes or Municipal Taxes in any of these countries so not misleading.
I bought a new SUV for about $70,000 I had 13% added on HST of which 5% was Federal and 7% Provincial added $9,000 to the price of the vehicle. You know better dckingfan those figures are just federal portions of GDP.

Then compare apples to apples

Brookings is being intentionally misleading. The US isn't undertaxed and they know it. They are trying to justify their social initiatives and are finding they aren't getting implemented - why? No money - so this is their answer.

You can't take federal taxes out of context - well, you can it just isn't correct. Also, look at the trend line - are our taxes going down?

[FAH1223]

I know none of you are interested in any other perspective other than your echo chamber, but just in case, I suggest you read this article about Trump not being soft on Russia:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/is-president-trump-much-tougher-on-russia-than-obama/article/2649509

Trump hasn't imposed sanctions because he is reserving it as a threat. However, Trump has armed the Ukranians, which is a much more aggressively anti-Russian stance than anything Obama did. Did your precious NY Times or Washington Post mention that?

If you were an outsider with no bone to pick, that would make absolutely no sense to you. He removed sanctions. Even you have to admit that the perception to any casual observer would be suspicion as to his motivations. I think most Republicans understand this - not just Democrats - so this is no echo chamber situation. You don't remove penalties for crimes to a convict because you want to reserve them as a threat. We're talking very basic common sense.

I dislike Trump as much anyone. But what Russian sanctions were removed? The ones Obama put before leaving office in late 2016 haven't been removed. The 2014 ones after Crimea became part of Russia are still in effect.

The ones passed by the US House and Senate and signed into law by Trump last year haven't been implemented.

One thing I've mentioned earlier is that sooner rather than later, sanctions are going to become toothless as more and more countries like Russia, China, Iran operate outside of the dollar system and trade in gold/mutual currencies. Now cryptos are becoming a thing with Venezuela.

[cammac]

We are at over 40%!!!! this is such a misleading brief. If they add in State and Local taxes it just isn't true. And notice the trend. And a good deal of the local and state spending is due to programs that the fed mandates and the states have to implement.

This doesn't include State/Provincial Taxes or Municipal Taxes in any of these countries so not misleading.
I bought a new SUV for about $70,000 I had 13% added on HST of which 5% was Federal and 7% Provincial added $9,000 to the price of the vehicle. You know better dckingfan those figures are just federal portions of GDP.

Then compare apples to apples

Brookings is being intentionally misleading. The US isn't undertaxed and they know it. They are trying to justify their social initiatives and are finding they aren't getting implemented - why? No money - so this is their answer.

You can't take federal taxes out of context - well, you can it just isn't correct. Also, look at the trend line - are our taxes going down?

You must compare apples to apples hell countries like Denmark pay more in Federal tax than USA does in total. The USA isn't a highly taxed country!

[dckingsfan]

The study compares to other OECD countries? It only looks at federal taxes - it is a VERY flawed study.

And if France, Italy and the Scandinavian countries are your model, then no thanks. They are also overtaxed and it has been killing their economies as well.

Also, please do the research on what happened when Canada lowered their corporate tax rate. Did total revenue go up or down?

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

[TGW]

I know none of you are interested in any other perspective other than your echo chamber, but just in case, I suggest you read this article about Trump not being soft on Russia:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/is-president-trump-much-tougher-on-russia-than-obama/article/2649509

Trump hasn't imposed sanctions because he is reserving it as a threat. However, Trump has armed the Ukranians, which is a much more aggressively anti-Russian stance than anything Obama did. Did your precious NY Times or Washington Post mention that?

If you were an outsider with no bone to pick, that would make absolutely no sense to you. He removed sanctions. Even you have to admit that the perception to any casual observer would be suspicion as to his motivations. I think most Republicans understand this - not just Democrats - so this is no echo chamber situation. You don't remove penalties for crimes to a convict because you want to reserve them as a threat. We're talking very basic common sense.

I dislike Trump as much anyone. But what Russian sanctions were removed? The ones Obama put before leaving office in late 2016 haven't been removed. The 2014 ones after Crimea became part of Russia are still in effect.

The ones passed by the US House and Senate and signed into law by Trump last year haven't been implemented.

One thing I've mentioned earlier is that sooner rather than later, sanctions are going to become toothless as more and more countries like Russia, China, Iran operate outside of the dollar system and trade in gold/mutual currencies. Now cryptos are becoming a thing with Venezuela.

Yep. Those countries don't use the petrodollar...they don't play by American rules.

[gtn130]

Read on Twitter

Point #1 is false. Their aim was to cause chaos.

Wrong. What planet do you live on? Have you read the indictment?

Here's a summary:

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.

The document, which spells out in detail how the Russians worked to support Trump’s campaign, alleges that on or about Feb. 10, 2016, the Russians internally circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted on social media accounts.

“Specialists were instructed to post content that focused on ‘politics in the USA’ and to ‘use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them),’” the indictment said.

The anti-Trump protests inspired by Russian bots happened after the election. Maybe they did it to better cover their tracks and disguise their intentions or maybe they wanted to pivot to broadly sowing discord - I don't know, but it really holds no bearing on the election or what the Russian trolls were trying to accomplish. It's spelled out very clearly in the indictment.

[Ruzious]

I know none of you are interested in any other perspective other than your echo chamber, but just in case, I suggest you read this article about Trump not being soft on Russia:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/is-president-trump-much-tougher-on-russia-than-obama/article/2649509

Trump hasn't imposed sanctions because he is reserving it as a threat. However, Trump has armed the Ukranians, which is a much more aggressively anti-Russian stance than anything Obama did. Did your precious NY Times or Washington Post mention that?

If you were an outsider with no bone to pick, that would make absolutely no sense to you. He removed sanctions. Even you have to admit that the perception to any casual observer would be suspicion as to his motivations. I think most Republicans understand this - not just Democrats - so this is no echo chamber situation. You don't remove penalties for crimes to a convict because you want to reserve them as a threat. We're talking very basic common sense.

I dislike Trump as much anyone. But what Russian sanctions were removed? The ones Obama put before leaving office in late 2016 haven't been removed. The 2014 ones after Crimea became part of Russia are still in effect.

The ones passed by the US House and Senate and signed into law by Trump last year haven't been implemented.

One thing I've mentioned earlier is that sooner rather than later, sanctions are going to become toothless as more and more countries like Russia, China, Iran operate outside of the dollar system and trade in gold/mutual currencies. Now cryptos are becoming a thing with Venezuela.

My fault, but the attempt was made http://www.newsweek.com/trump-white-house-secret-efforts-lift-russia-sanctions-putin-619508 and certainly Trump's men - Flynn and Manafort - were doing everything in their power to get them lifted.

[stilldropin20]

Read on Twitter

Point #1 is false. Their aim was to cause chaos.

Wrong. What planet do you live on? Have you read the indictment?

Here's a summary:

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.

The document, which spells out in detail how the Russians worked to support Trump’s campaign, alleges that on or about Feb. 10, 2016, the Russians internally circulated an outline of themes for future content to be posted on social media accounts.

“Specialists were instructed to post content that focused on ‘politics in the USA’ and to ‘use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them),’” the indictment said.

The anti-Trump protests inspired by Russian bots happened after the election. Maybe they did it to better cover their tracks and disguise their intentions or maybe they wanted to pivot to broadly sowing discord - I don't know, but it really holds no bearing on the election or what the Russian trolls were trying to accomplish. It's spelled out very clearly in the indictment.

Dude, give it a rest. We’re talking about 13 Internet trolls that spent 50 K on Facebook and like 50 K on Twitter.

They supported Bernie Stein and Trump. And per the FBICIA and NSA Obama himself and now Trump they moved no needles.


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[FAH1223]

If you were an outsider with no bone to pick, that would make absolutely no sense to you. He removed sanctions. Even you have to admit that the perception to any casual observer would be suspicion as to his motivations. I think most Republicans understand this - not just Democrats - so this is no echo chamber situation. You don't remove penalties for crimes to a convict because you want to reserve them as a threat. We're talking very basic common sense.

I dislike Trump as much anyone. But what Russian sanctions were removed? The ones Obama put before leaving office in late 2016 haven't been removed. The 2014 ones after Crimea became part of Russia are still in effect.

The ones passed by the US House and Senate and signed into law by Trump last year haven't been implemented.

One thing I've mentioned earlier is that sooner rather than later, sanctions are going to become toothless as more and more countries like Russia, China, Iran operate outside of the dollar system and trade in gold/mutual currencies. Now cryptos are becoming a thing with Venezuela.

Yep. Those countries don't use the petrodollar...they don't play by American rules.

The Chinese are thinking of launching a petro-yuan.

The US Dollar isn't going to be the world reserve currency during our lifetimes. IMO, next 20 years.

And its all due to terrible policy especially the idiotic ones done by the Bush Administration.

[stilldropin20]

If you were an outsider with no bone to pick, that would make absolutely no sense to you. He removed sanctions. Even you have to admit that the perception to any casual observer would be suspicion as to his motivations. I think most Republicans understand this - not just Democrats - so this is no echo chamber situation. You don't remove penalties for crimes to a convict because you want to reserve them as a threat. We're talking very basic common sense.

I dislike Trump as much anyone. But what Russian sanctions were removed? The ones Obama put before leaving office in late 2016 haven't been removed. The 2014 ones after Crimea became part of Russia are still in effect.

The ones passed by the US House and Senate and signed into law by Trump last year haven't been implemented.

One thing I've mentioned earlier is that sooner rather than later, sanctions are going to become toothless as more and more countries like Russia, China, Iran operate outside of the dollar system and trade in gold/mutual currencies. Now cryptos are becoming a thing with Venezuela.

My fault, but the attempt was made http://www.newsweek.com/trump-white-house-secret-efforts-lift-russia-sanctions-putin-619508 and certainly Trump's men - Flynn and Manafort - were doing everything in their power to get them lifted.

Trump and his team wanted to take another swipe at Russia. No doubt


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[dckingsfan]

Hahahaha - the king of the carveout. I know how to spend money better in my nonprofit than the government - this is soooo rich.

Read on Twitter

[closg00]

My fault, but the attempt was made http://www.newsweek.com/trump-white-house-secret-efforts-lift-russia-sanctions-putin-619508 and certainly Trump's men - Flynn and Manafort - were doing everything in their power to get them lifted.

There's your billowing smoke of collusion fire. The incoming administration, fully aware that Russia had attacked us and that Obama had retaliated throwing Russian's out of several U.S.properties, were operating behind the scenes both before and after the election, to give Putin exactly what he wanted and against the United States. This is the reason why the dossier and everything involving it must be destroyed by Nunes. Read the allegations as it pertains to Manafort. The dossier nails Trump, Manafort, Page, and the entire treasonous operation.

In-order for Mueller to be able to roll-out the entire criminal enterprise, Manafort has to break, so-far he isn't. You have to think there will be a pot of gold waiting for him if he maintains his "loyalty"


READ: (Weird, it won't link, look it up on Wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump–Russia_dossier_allegations

This one is good too, but Wika has a very nice layout of the allegations
https://themoscowproject.org/explainers/steele-dossier-assessment-allegations/

[Zonkerbl]

I'm pretty sure there were highly ranked people in Trump's campaign staff who coordinated the release of stolen emails strategically in exchange for ease of sanctions. I'm sure Trump knew about it and gave orders to do it. Trump's increasing panic is proof that he's guilty, to me anyway. The only drama now is can Mueller collect enough evidence to prove it and can he implicate Trump directly.

Anything else anyone says is just spreading alt-right echo chamber propaganda. We'll see how it turns out. I have high hopes for Mueller, even though he's an evil Republican FBI spook. Or maybe because he's an evil Republican FBI spook.