Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

[DCZards]

PIF, where did anyone here judge Simmons based on how many points he does or does not score? I'll answer that question: nowhere.

You really need to stop insulting the rest of us by always suggesting that all we care about--or the only way we judge players--is on the points they score.

Simmons is an above average scorer. We get that. But the only reason we are even discussing a possible Beal-Simmons deal is that Ben's shooting IS a problem. Otherwise, why would the Sixers even consider trading him?

[payitforward]

Ben Simmons is posting a .608 TS% this year. I guess he must be making shots from somewhere, huh?

Still, it's obvious: there's only one way to tell how good a player is, & that is by looking at how many points he scores. Guys who score more points are better than guys who score fewer points. Nothing else matters -- it doesn't matter how many shots it takes to score their points, because more points is better than fewer points. As to the rest of what players do on the floor, come on? What does that matter?

(It is important, however, where they score their points from. For example, if I like a player, & some other player doesn't score as well from the spots where my guy scores well, why that means he's not as good as my guy.)

Let me illustrate. James Harden scores more points per 40 minutes than any other guard in the league. That means he is the best guard in the league. Luka Doncic scores the 2d most points per 40 minutes; that makes him the 2d best guard in the league. He's not as good as Harden -- obviously: he doesn't score as many points.

Third in points per 40 minutes is Trae Young -- that makes him the 3d best guard in the league. & right behind him is Brad Beal, who, obviously, is the 4th best guard in the NBA. How could he not be? He scores the 4th most points; he has to be 4th best.

That's right, isn't it?

I should shut up sometimes, what do you think? & you are right: if Simmons did what he does plus scored like Brad... he'd be Giannis!

Sorry, all; will try to get better -- & thanks to Zards for staying on me.

[prime1time]

Trading Beal for Simmons would be a disaster. Simmons is the same exact player he's been since .he came into his league. If you want Simmons that badly, wait for his value to fall and then pair him with Beal. Beal is just getting started. Coming off arguably the best month of his career. I can't think of one player that has gotten to where Brad is and stops improving. Each night he goes out and carries the offense. And pretty soon he'll have seen all the ways defenses can try to stop him. He is now 13th in the league in PER. And I expect that he will continue to climb. This season has been an adjustment for him due to the new role he's been asked to carry so it should come as no surprise that he's gotten better over time.

Personally I'm not a fan of Simmons. His lack of shooting is disastrous and he's soft. But Simmons' and Beal could potentially work. All in all, nothing has changed in my approach. We build around Beal. Talk of trading him now is even more silly than before. But if we are to trade him, I'd expect an Anthony Davis/Paul George esque return.

In addition, the Simmons Giannis comparisons are bizarre to me. Look at how much Giannis has improved each year. Then look at Simmons.

[Ruzious]

Trading Beal for Simmons would be a disaster. Simmons is the same exact player he's been since .he came into his league. If you want Simmons that badly, wait for his value to fall and then pair him with Beal. Beal is just getting started. Coming off arguably the best month of his career. I can't think of one player that has gotten to where Brad is and stops improving. Each night he goes out and carries the offense. And pretty soon he'll have seen all the ways defenses can try to stop him. He is now 13th in the league in PER. And I expect that he will continue to climb. This season has been an adjustment for him due to the new role he's been asked to carry so it should come as no surprise that he's gotten better over time.

Personally I'm not a fan of Simmons. His lack of shooting is disastrous and he's soft. But Simmons' and Beal could potentially work. All in all, nothing has changed in my approach. We build around Beal. Talk of trading him now is even more silly than before. But if we are to trade him, I'd expect an Anthony Davis/Paul George esque return.

In addition, the Simmons Giannis comparisons are bizarre to me. Look at how much Giannis has improved each year. Then look at Simmons.

I mean... even this season with Beal scoring over 30 a game and Simmons starting out the season poorly and not being a great fit for Philly, Simmons has a 7.1 win share for the season, while Beal has a 4.8. And Simmons is about 3 years younger? Maybe there's a chance Simmons is a little better basketball player going forward?

[pcbothwel]

Trading Beal for Simmons would be a disaster. Simmons is the same exact player he's been since .he came into his league. If you want Simmons that badly, wait for his value to fall and then pair him with Beal. Beal is just getting started. Coming off arguably the best month of his career. I can't think of one player that has gotten to where Brad is and stops improving. Each night he goes out and carries the offense. And pretty soon he'll have seen all the ways defenses can try to stop him. He is now 13th in the league in PER. And I expect that he will continue to climb. This season has been an adjustment for him due to the new role he's been asked to carry so it should come as no surprise that he's gotten better over time.

Personally I'm not a fan of Simmons. His lack of shooting is disastrous and he's soft. But Simmons' and Beal could potentially work. All in all, nothing has changed in my approach. We build around Beal. Talk of trading him now is even more silly than before. But if we are to trade him, I'd expect an Anthony Davis/Paul George esque return.

In addition, the Simmons Giannis comparisons are bizarre to me. Look at how much Giannis has improved each year. Then look at Simmons.

I mean... even this season with Beal scoring over 30 a game and Simmons starting out the season poorly and not being a great fit for Philly, Simmons has a 7.1 win share for the season, while Beal has a 4.8. And Simmons is about 3 years younger? Maybe there's a chance Simmons is a little better basketball player going forward?

Ruz... prime is making a very serious point when it comes to Simmons. For a guy to be the same player at 23 as he was at 19 is greatly concerning. He has gotten worse across the board. Rebounding, Usage, AST% to TOV%, BPPM, On/Off, etc.

Sure, his TS is a little higher, but thats because he is simply shooting 60% of his FGA come within 3 feet of the basket.
The problem is people always look at Ben Simmons with a glass half full mindset...which is,
"look how good he his and he cant even shoot..."
The counter would be, he is so terrible as a shooter and limited offensively, that any decline either as a playmaker or defensively tanks his value as he cant shoot.
I HATE the comp to Giannis. Giannis has a usage above 30% each of the last 3 years and hasnt been below 20% since he was 20. His FT shooting hasnt been below 70% since he was a rookie and Simmons just crossed 60% this year at a meager 62%.

Simmons is more Kirilenko/Draymond than he is anywhere near Giannis.
His limitations, lack of improvement, and general apathy about being great are HUGE red flags

[Ruzious]

Trading Beal for Simmons would be a disaster. Simmons is the same exact player he's been since .he came into his league. If you want Simmons that badly, wait for his value to fall and then pair him with Beal. Beal is just getting started. Coming off arguably the best month of his career. I can't think of one player that has gotten to where Brad is and stops improving. Each night he goes out and carries the offense. And pretty soon he'll have seen all the ways defenses can try to stop him. He is now 13th in the league in PER. And I expect that he will continue to climb. This season has been an adjustment for him due to the new role he's been asked to carry so it should come as no surprise that he's gotten better over time.

Personally I'm not a fan of Simmons. His lack of shooting is disastrous and he's soft. But Simmons' and Beal could potentially work. All in all, nothing has changed in my approach. We build around Beal. Talk of trading him now is even more silly than before. But if we are to trade him, I'd expect an Anthony Davis/Paul George esque return.

In addition, the Simmons Giannis comparisons are bizarre to me. Look at how much Giannis has improved each year. Then look at Simmons.

I mean... even this season with Beal scoring over 30 a game and Simmons starting out the season poorly and not being a great fit for Philly, Simmons has a 7.1 win share for the season, while Beal has a 4.8. And Simmons is about 3 years younger? Maybe there's a chance Simmons is a little better basketball player going forward?

Ruz... prime is making a very serious point when it comes to Simmons. For a guy to be the same player at 23 as he was at 19 is greatly concerning. He has gotten worse across the board. Rebounding, Usage, AST% to TOV%, BPPM, On/Off, etc.

Sure, his TS is a little higher, but thats because he is simply shooting 60% of his FGA come within 3 feet of the basket.
The problem is people always look at Ben Simmons with a glass half full mindset...which is,
"look how good he his and he cant even shoot..."
The counter would be, he is so terrible as a shooter and limited offensively, that any decline either as a playmaker or defensively tanks his value as he cant shoot.
I HATE the comp to Giannis. Giannis has a usage above 30% each of the last 3 years and hasnt been below 20% since he was 20. His FT shooting hasnt been below 70% since he was a rookie and Simmons just crossed 60% this year at a meager 62%.

Simmons is more Kirilenko/Draymond than he is anywhere near Giannis.
His limitations, lack of improvement, and general apathy about being great are HUGE red flags

No, this is third season in the NBA - his first was ridiculously good - Giannis wasn't as good as Ben's rookie year until his 4th season. Beal wasn't even in the vicinity until his 5th season. It's like saying - What happened to Dan Marino - after he nearly won a Super Bowl as a rookie and never improved on that? Forget the Giannis comp - you don't have to look at it to understand how good Simmons is. How many people in NBA history had better rookie years than Simmons? And you're basically using that against him... see how I think that's kind of odd?

[nate33]

Ruz... prime is making a very serious point when it comes to Simmons. For a guy to be the same player at 23 as he was at 19 is greatly concerning. He has gotten worse across the board. Rebounding, Usage, AST% to TOV%, BPPM, On/Off, etc.

Sure, his TS is a little higher, but thats because he is simply shooting 60% of his FGA come within 3 feet of the basket.
The problem is people always look at Ben Simmons with a glass half full mindset...which is,
"look how good he his and he cant even shoot..."
The counter would be, he is so terrible as a shooter and limited offensively, that any decline either as a playmaker or defensively tanks his value as he cant shoot.
I HATE the comp to Giannis. Giannis has a usage above 30% each of the last 3 years and hasnt been below 20% since he was 20. His FT shooting hasnt been below 70% since he was a rookie and Simmons just crossed 60% this year at a meager 62%.

Simmons is more Kirilenko/Draymond than he is anywhere near Giannis.
His limitations, lack of improvement, and general apathy about being great are HUGE red flags

I think a big problem this year is that Philly constructed a roster even less suited to coexist with Simmons than the roster of last year.

In Simmons' rookie year, he had that long stretch with Embiid out and Redick, Bellineli, Covington and Ilyasova to spread the floor for him. That's why he was so good. This current roster is a terrible fit for Simmons. It's bad enough to pair him with Embiid, but at least give him a shooter better than Josh Richardson.

Look at how much Westbrook has played ever since Houston committed to a 5-out offense. Simmons would do the same.

[Meliorus]

Ruz... prime is making a very serious point when it comes to Simmons. For a guy to be the same player at 23 as he was at 19 is greatly concerning. He has gotten worse across the board. Rebounding, Usage, AST% to TOV%, BPPM, On/Off, etc.

Sure, his TS is a little higher, but thats because he is simply shooting 60% of his FGA come within 3 feet of the basket.
The problem is people always look at Ben Simmons with a glass half full mindset...which is,
"look how good he his and he cant even shoot..."
The counter would be, he is so terrible as a shooter and limited offensively, that any decline either as a playmaker or defensively tanks his value as he cant shoot.
I HATE the comp to Giannis. Giannis has a usage above 30% each of the last 3 years and hasnt been below 20% since he was 20. His FT shooting hasnt been below 70% since he was a rookie and Simmons just crossed 60% this year at a meager 62%.

Simmons is more Kirilenko/Draymond than he is anywhere near Giannis.
His limitations, lack of improvement, and general apathy about being great are HUGE red flags

I think a big problem this year is that Philly constructed a roster even less suited to coexist with Simmons than the roster of last year.

In Simmons' rookie year, he had that long stretch with Embiid out and Redick, Bellineli, Covington and Ilyasova to spread the floor for him. That's why he was so good. This current roster is a terrible fit for Simmons. It's bad enough to pair him with Embiid, but at least give him a shooter better than Josh Richardson.

Look at how much Westbrook has played ever since Houston committed to a 5-out offense. Simmons would do the same.

The concern with Simmons is not his talent level, or his impact on the game. This is a potential 1st team All-Defense player too. Build a team around him and it would be incredible. There are just questions about his love for the game, and that's more concerning.

[Ruzious]

Ruz... prime is making a very serious point when it comes to Simmons. For a guy to be the same player at 23 as he was at 19 is greatly concerning. He has gotten worse across the board. Rebounding, Usage, AST% to TOV%, BPPM, On/Off, etc.

Sure, his TS is a little higher, but thats because he is simply shooting 60% of his FGA come within 3 feet of the basket.
The problem is people always look at Ben Simmons with a glass half full mindset...which is,
"look how good he his and he cant even shoot..."
The counter would be, he is so terrible as a shooter and limited offensively, that any decline either as a playmaker or defensively tanks his value as he cant shoot.
I HATE the comp to Giannis. Giannis has a usage above 30% each of the last 3 years and hasnt been below 20% since he was 20. His FT shooting hasnt been below 70% since he was a rookie and Simmons just crossed 60% this year at a meager 62%.

Simmons is more Kirilenko/Draymond than he is anywhere near Giannis.
His limitations, lack of improvement, and general apathy about being great are HUGE red flags

I think a big problem this year is that Philly constructed a roster even less suited to coexist with Simmons than the roster of last year.

In Simmons' rookie year, he had that long stretch with Embiid out and Redick, Bellineli, Covington and Ilyasova to spread the floor for him. That's why he was so good. This current roster is a terrible fit for Simmons. It's bad enough to pair him with Embiid, but at least give him a shooter better than Josh Richardson.

Look at how much Westbrook has played ever since Houston committed to a 5-out offense. Simmons would do the same.

The concern with Simmons is not his talent level, or his impact on the game. This is a potential 1st team All-Defense player too. Build a team around him and it would be incredible. There are just questions about his love for the game, and that's more concerning.

https://apnews.com/df03a85509ea4a16a3b985ef76fb9f39

[nate33]

The concern with Simmons is not his talent level, or his impact on the game. This is a potential 1st team All-Defense player too. Build a team around him and it would be incredible. There are just questions about his love for the game, and that's more concerning.

There is some risk. I won't deny that. But if he was an absolutely sure bet to be an MVP caliber player, then he wouldn't be available for just Beal. I'm saying the potential upside is worth the downside risk.

And I'm not really that worried about the motivations of a guy who seems to care so much about defense.

[pcbothwel]

The concern with Simmons is not his talent level, or his impact on the game. This is a potential 1st team All-Defense player too. Build a team around him and it would be incredible. There are just questions about his love for the game, and that's more concerning.

There is some risk. I won't deny that. But if he was an absolutely sure bet to be an MVP caliber player, then he wouldn't be available for just Beal. I'm saying the potential upside is worth the downside risk.

And I'm not really that worried about the motivations of a guy who seems to care so much about defense.

Nate... Id like to get your opinion after the playoffs. I think Simmons will fill up the stat box, but will mostly be shutdown and will be even hard to watch... so we'll see

[nate33]

The concern with Simmons is not his talent level, or his impact on the game. This is a potential 1st team All-Defense player too. Build a team around him and it would be incredible. There are just questions about his love for the game, and that's more concerning.

There is some risk. I won't deny that. But if he was an absolutely sure bet to be an MVP caliber player, then he wouldn't be available for just Beal. I'm saying the potential upside is worth the downside risk.

And I'm not really that worried about the motivations of a guy who seems to care so much about defense.

Nate... Id like to get your opinion after the playoffs. I think Simmons will fill up the stat box, but will mostly be shutdown and will be even hard to watch... so we'll see

I'm hoping he has a lousy playoffs. If he has a great playoffs, Philly won't deal him for Beal.

I readily cede that he's an unusual player that can't easily fit onto every team. You need to build the right kind of team around him. I think we have many of those components already (in particular, stretch bigs), though we would still need a defensive guard with a deadly perimeter shot - a younger version of George Hill.

[payitforward]

Ruz... prime is making a very serious point when it comes to Simmons. For a guy to be the same player at 23 as he was at 19 is greatly concerning. He has gotten worse across the board. Rebounding, Usage, AST% to TOV%, BPPM, On/Off, etc.

Sure, his TS is a little higher, but thats because he is simply shooting 60% of his FGA come within 3 feet of the basket.
The problem is people always look at Ben Simmons with a glass half full mindset...which is,
"look how good he his and he cant even shoot..."
The counter would be, he is so terrible as a shooter and limited offensively, that any decline either as a playmaker or defensively tanks his value as he cant shoot.
I HATE the comp to Giannis. Giannis has a usage above 30% each of the last 3 years and hasnt been below 20% since he was 20. His FT shooting hasnt been below 70% since he was a rookie and Simmons just crossed 60% this year at a meager 62%.

Simmons is more Kirilenko/Draymond than he is anywhere near Giannis.
His limitations, lack of improvement, and general apathy about being great are HUGE red flags

No, this is third season in the NBA - his first was ridiculously good - Giannis wasn't as good as Ben's rookie year until his 4th season. Beal wasn't even in the vicinity until his 5th season. It's like saying - What happened to Dan Marino - after he nearly won a Super Bowl as a rookie and never improved on that? Forget the Giannis comp - you don't have to look at it to understand how good Simmons is. How many people in NBA history had better rookie years than Simmons? And you're basically using that against him... see how I think that's kind of odd?

Ruz is correct in every way. But, the key point here isn't only the under-estimation of Ben Simmons, it's also the over-estimation of Beal.

Bradley Beal is a terrific basketball player, an outstanding NBA guard & a terrific scorer. But, in his career, he has never approached the level of productivity Simmons posted as a rookie! He hasn't gotten close.

Don't take that as a ding on Brad, because it isn't. Not at all. Nor am I "anti-Brad." In fact, I thought he was a great pick in 2012, & when a whole lot of people here were busy calling him a bust 2-3 years into his career (I assume you remember that), I defended him.

Nor did he improve overall in his first four years in the league. In fact, the first year Brad started delivering on his promise was 2016-17 -- his 5th season. & neither that year, nor any year since, has he come close to producing what Simmons produced as a rookie.

Again, that's not a criticism of Bradley Beal! There's a very large group of very good players about whom one would say exactly the same thing!

[Meliorus]

I think a big problem this year is that Philly constructed a roster even less suited to coexist with Simmons than the roster of last year.

In Simmons' rookie year, he had that long stretch with Embiid out and Redick, Bellineli, Covington and Ilyasova to spread the floor for him. That's why he was so good. This current roster is a terrible fit for Simmons. It's bad enough to pair him with Embiid, but at least give him a shooter better than Josh Richardson.

Look at how much Westbrook has played ever since Houston committed to a 5-out offense. Simmons would do the same.

The concern with Simmons is not his talent level, or his impact on the game. This is a potential 1st team All-Defense player too. Build a team around him and it would be incredible. There are just questions about his love for the game, and that's more concerning.

https://apnews.com/df03a85509ea4a16a3b985ef76fb9f39

Why is this happening in the first place though? Why does he need to fall in love with basketball, should already be an obsession (given that you're in the NBA!). Really makes me question a player if they don't have the desire to max out on their natural talent (see Kobe).

[payitforward]

Nate... Id like to get your opinion after the playoffs. I think Simmons will fill up the stat box, but will mostly be shutdown and will be even hard to watch... so we'll see

How can someone "fill up the stat box" but "mostly be shut down?"

There is also no such thing as "fill up the stat box" but not contribute to winning. Doesn't exist. Here's why. At the end of a game, the team with fewer points loses, the team with more points wins.

There are only 2 ways to be "the team with more points," two & no other. Either you score the ball at a higher TS%, or you get more opportunities to score than your opponent (more shots/FTs). That's it.

In fact, if you do both those things you cannot lose. It's mathematically impossible. & if you do neither of those things, you cannot win. Again, it's mathematically impossible.

The way you do the first thing is you "fill up the stat sheet." The way you do the second is you "fill up the stat sheet." If you shoot a higher TS%, that helps your team's TS%. If you are outstanding at the composite of rebounds/blocks/steals/turnovers/fouls, you give your team more opportunities to score. If you do both, so much the better.

(Yes, there is also a marginal effect of spacing -- be in touch as soon as you can quantify it in some way.)

If you are also a good defender, then that should show in your opponent's TS% being held down.

Ben does all those things. That's why he's a great player; it's also why his team wins lots of games. But, he doesn't run the FO, & that's why Philly isn't as good this year. Their GM was a very good basketball player; he's not good at his current job.

[payitforward]

...Why does he need to fall in love with basketball, should already be an obsession (given that you're in the NBA!). Really makes me question a player if they don't have the desire to max out on their natural talent (see Kobe).

These guys are professionals. They do what they do as professionals, not as amateurs.

OTOH, you and I are fans. What we say "should already be" one way or another really doesn't matter much. When I say "we should have traded down & picked..." whoever, it doesn't mean squat. When you say that basketball "should already be an obsession" if you're in the NBA, that doesn't mean squat either.

What matters is results. How does Simmons play? How do we do as a team making the draft picks we do make?

Of course, you and I have a right to our opinions!

When I disapprove of a draft pick or a trade or whatever, b/c I can see what we could or couldn't have done differently, for sure I get to say that the move "really makes me question" our FO.

&, if you feel like questioning Simmons b/c you think you can see into him & know what he does or doesn't desire, why sure -- you get to say how you think things ought to be.

But, neither what I say nor what you say means anything at all. What means something is results -- what happens on the court. & on the court, Ben Simmons -- as a rookie, his second year, & this year -- has been one of the very very most productive players in the game. On the court.

[Ruzious]

The concern with Simmons is not his talent level, or his impact on the game. This is a potential 1st team All-Defense player too. Build a team around him and it would be incredible. There are just questions about his love for the game, and that's more concerning.

https://apnews.com/df03a85509ea4a16a3b985ef76fb9f39

Why is this happening in the first place though? Why does he need to fall in love with basketball, should already be an obsession (given that you're in the NBA!). Really makes me question a player if they don't have the desire to max out on their natural talent (see Kobe).

Kobe, seriously - like the talent Kobe had the desire to maximize in Denver? Do you think Beal has the kind of basketball talent that Kobe had? Otherwise, why bring him up instead of someone like Joe Ingles?

[pcbothwel]

...Why does he need to fall in love with basketball, should already be an obsession (given that you're in the NBA!). Really makes me question a player if they don't have the desire to max out on their natural talent (see Kobe).

These guys are professionals. They do what they do as professionals, not as amateurs.

OTOH, you and I are fans. What we say "should already be" one way or another really doesn't matter much. When I say "we should have traded down & picked..." whoever, it doesn't mean squat. When you say that basketball "should already be an obsession" if you're in the NBA, that doesn't mean squat either.

What matters is results. How does Simmons play? How do we do as a team making the draft picks we do make?

Of course, you and I have a right to our opinions!

When I disapprove of a draft pick or a trade or whatever, b/c I can see what we could or couldn't have done differently, for sure I get to say that the move "really makes me question" our FO.

&, if you feel like questioning Simmons b/c you think you can see into him & know what he does or doesn't desire, why sure -- you get to say how you think things ought to be.

But, neither what I say nor what you say means anything at all. What means something is results -- what happens on the court. & on the court, Ben Simmons -- as a rookie, his second year, & this year -- has been one of the very very most productive players in the game. On the court.

PIF... So he "Fell in Love" again, yet he is an even worse shooter in every way on even lower usage.

[Ruzious]

...Why does he need to fall in love with basketball, should already be an obsession (given that you're in the NBA!). Really makes me question a player if they don't have the desire to max out on their natural talent (see Kobe).

These guys are professionals. They do what they do as professionals, not as amateurs.

OTOH, you and I are fans. What we say "should already be" one way or another really doesn't matter much. When I say "we should have traded down & picked..." whoever, it doesn't mean squat. When you say that basketball "should already be an obsession" if you're in the NBA, that doesn't mean squat either.

What matters is results. How does Simmons play? How do we do as a team making the draft picks we do make?

Of course, you and I have a right to our opinions!

When I disapprove of a draft pick or a trade or whatever, b/c I can see what we could or couldn't have done differently, for sure I get to say that the move "really makes me question" our FO.

&, if you feel like questioning Simmons b/c you think you can see into him & know what he does or doesn't desire, why sure -- you get to say how you think things ought to be.

But, neither what I say nor what you say means anything at all. What means something is results -- what happens on the court. & on the court, Ben Simmons -- as a rookie, his second year, & this year -- has been one of the very very most productive players in the game. On the court.

PIF... So he "Fell in Love" again, yet he is an even worse shooter in every way on even lower usage.

Except for the shots he actually takes. Everyone's made their points several times - it's probably a good idea to drop it.

[payitforward]

The voice of reason....