ImageImageImageImageImage

Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1461 » by Induveca » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:25 pm

Nivek wrote:Which of Obama's ideas are "too radical"?


- Ridiculously expensive government healthcare program during extreme domestic and global financial turmoil.
- Plans for the private sector to create "new factories" and "new manufacturing jobs" while doubling up taxation (literally 100%) on those he expects to build the factories/pay the staff to make that happen. It will close the few factories that are left. US factories can't compete internationally already, how can they compete when the price of doing business in the US skyrockets?
- Calling for new jobs in general, while proposing taxation structure which will ensure layoffs.

Call it radical, extreme, unconventional....whatever word fits. But the policies he's pushing are fairy tales. No one in the country can afford them with the current economy. I'd be more open to this approach being implemented, but not when you NEED the support of the businessmen/politicians he's vilifying to his constituents.
closg00
RealGM
Posts: 24,743
And1: 4,587
Joined: Nov 21, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1462 » by closg00 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:26 pm

Wasn't W Bush a businessman?
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1463 » by Induveca » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:31 pm

closg00 wrote:Wasn't W Bush a businessman?


He was also a complete idiot who was reviled around the world for a reason. Expand beyond the American two party system for a moment and look at the realities of the situation in the US without speaking through a political filter.

See my above post for my major issues, if someone can explain how these aren't fairy tales I'll calm down a bit...but for now I have no idea why I'd create my next business in the US?

And please don't give me the "patriotism" stuff. US banks/state/local governments compete for local and foreign investment with every other major country in the world.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1464 » by Nivek » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:54 pm

Induveca wrote:
Nivek wrote:Which of Obama's ideas are "too radical"?


- Ridiculously expensive government healthcare program during extreme domestic and global financial turmoil.
- Plans for the private sector to create "new factories" and "new manufacturing jobs" while doubling up taxation (literally 100%) on those he expects to build the factories/pay the staff to make that happen. It will close the few factories that are left. US factories can't compete internationally already, how can they compete when the price of doing business in the US skyrockets?
- Calling for new jobs in general, while proposing taxation structure which will ensure layoffs.

Call it radical, extreme, unconventional....whatever word fits. But the policies he's pushing are fairy tales. No one in the country can afford them with the current economy. I'd be more open to this approach being implemented, but not when you NEED the support of the businessmen/politicians he's vilifying to his constituents.


The healthcare program is supposed to reduce healthcare costs over the long run.

The tax plan he's proposed is essentially what was in effect before the Bush tax cut. As I recall, the "Clinton" tax rates didn't cause widespread layoffs or economic calamity.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
Severn Hoos
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,443
And1: 223
Joined: May 09, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1465 » by Severn Hoos » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:03 am

Too bad he doesn't have Al Gore as his VP to invent the internet and fuel a boom/bubble to sustain those higher rates...
"A society that puts equality - in the sense of equality of outcome - ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom. The use of force to achieve equality will destroy freedom" Milton Friedman, Free to Choose
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1466 » by Induveca » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:54 am

Nivek,

Apply the same analytical mind you apply to basketball. You're forgetting multiple variables in your equation.

Current deficit
Rate of printing money
Foreclosures
EU markets

To compare the wealth of the mid to late 90s to today is a disservice to this discussion. 1921 looked damn good compared to 1935 as well.

Again HOW are these "manufacturing" jobs created and the factories which house them created by the "Wealthy" who are already unable to compete with foreign competition TODAY due to cost? Combine that with raising their dividend tax by 100%, it's a Robin Hood-esque fairy tale.

Romney truly pissed me off by not asking these questions. Unfortunately the conversation is not a true intellectual debate, it's an attempt to sway the clueless masses. The US has reached 3rd world politics in this election. "TAKE FROM THE RICH, GIVE TO THE POOR!"

Extremely dangerous path to tread. If you said "take from the silver spoons, give to the poor...." I might agree. Unfortunately no such distinction can be made when speaking to the layman (and I mean the common debate viewer, not the intelligent people inhabiting this board).
barelyawake
Head Coach
Posts: 6,099
And1: 685
Joined: Aug 07, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1467 » by barelyawake » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:43 am

Hate commenting on this post because it gets no one anywhere. But, after awhile of listening to this trickle down garbage long enough, one must comment.

A) The problem with the US economy is customers. Customers are the "job creators." Customers say to a business they need more of x product, so a company hires more people to develop, sell and market x product. Without customers, there is no need to hire more workers.

B) Our customers have no money because they are spending it all on healthcare. Our government is going bankrupt because of healthcare costs as well.

C) There is three trillion sitting on the sidelines, and the stock market has doubled. There is plenty of investment money, if we had customers. You build from the middle out, not top down (because the money never trickles down).

D) We have the largest market in the world. Never forget that. We are not a third world country where we have to beg business. Small businesses will be fine if and when there are customers (a middle class with disposable income).

E) If you want to talk about radical, here's radical. Romney has the same neocons in his cabinet who got us into two wars without paying for them. If you think they won't start more wars once back in control, you are extremely naive. Romney offers more war, no solution to health care, tax cuts for the rich, and no solutions for a vanishing middle class (the very folks who are would be customers).
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1468 » by Induveca » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:52 am

barelyawake wrote:Hate commenting on this post because it gets no one anywhere. But, after awhile of listening to this trickle down garbage long enough, one must comment.

A) The problem with the US economy is customers. Customers are the "job creators." Customers say to a business they need more of x product, so a company hires more people to develop, sell and market x product. Without customers, there is no need to hire more workers.

B) Our customers have no money because they we spending it all on healthcare. Our government is going bankrupt because of healthcare costs as well.

C) There is three trillion sitting on the sidelines, and the stock market has doubled. There is plenty of investment money, if we had customers. You build from the middle out, not top down (because the money never trickles down).

D) We have the largest market in the world. Never forget that. We are not a third world country where we have to beg business. Small businesses will be fine if and when there are customers (ie middle class with disposable income).

E) If you want to talk about radical, here's radical. Romney has the same neocons in his cabinet who got us into two wars without paying for them. If you think they won't start more wars once back in control, you are extremely naive. Romney offers more war, no solution to health care, tax cuts for the rich, and no solutions for a vanishing middle class (the very folks who are would be customers).


Again, cut off the partisan shades. No one is answering the specific questions I have....

How does Obama pay for these factory/manufacturing pipe dreams when taxing the businessmen who would create them 100% more? They've already been undercut by overseas firms for a decade now.

It's pure bull.

It has NOTHING to do with individuals, political parties, perceptions of candidates or otherwise. It has to do with that simple question. HOW THE **** do American manufacturers compete in an economy where they're paying 5x wages, 5x taxes and access to 5x LESS market.

It's foolish, and a fairy tale.

The garment business moved overseas a long time ago, it would prove beneficial for all here to study the reason why. How do you compete with an economic foe who can undercut you on wages and production capacity? It's not by taxing the rich!
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,136
And1: 4,792
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1469 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:58 am

Induveca wrote:
Nivek wrote:Which of Obama's ideas are "too radical"?


- Ridiculously expensive government healthcare program during extreme domestic and global financial turmoil.
- Plans for the private sector to create "new factories" and "new manufacturing jobs" while doubling up taxation (literally 100%) on those he expects to build the factories/pay the staff to make that happen. It will close the few factories that are left. US factories can't compete internationally already, how can they compete when the price of doing business in the US skyrockets?
- Calling for new jobs in general, while proposing taxation structure which will ensure layoffs.

Call it radical, extreme, unconventional....whatever word fits. But the policies he's pushing are fairy tales. No one in the country can afford them with the current economy. I'd be more open to this approach being implemented, but not when you NEED the support of the businessmen/politicians he's vilifying to his constituents.


Stop right there. We already have ridiculously expensive government healthcare. When you show up at the emergency room, the doctor has to look at you. Once he does, s/he's responsible for your health, whether you've got insurance or not. If you turn that person away, and they die, the deceased's family can sue. So we're paying for it already. All Obamacare does is pay for it less stupidly. Like Kevin says, it will in fact save us money.

We're going around in circles now. For me, my position hasn't changed since I posted this back in August 2011:

1) Raze EPA to the ground and rewrite the Clean Air Act to require [edit: the agency that replaces] EPA to consider job losses and international competitiveness impacts when writing rules. Require EPA to consider market based alternatives whenever possible instead of when it solves a political problem. Forbid the courts from using the "arbitrary and capricious" standard when considering EPA rules -- use the formal rulemaking process where EPA experts can be cross-examined. Same for OSHA. For all rulemaking agencies create an Agency for Economic Analysis where the costs and benefits of rules are analyzed by a separate cabinet agency from the one who wrote it so the foxes aren't in charge of the henhouse.

2) Create a mechanism that makes it possible to fire Federal workers who are incompetent, while preventing them from being fired for political reasons (don't know if this is possible, unfortunately).

3) Replace the entire tax code with a VAT.

4) Add a true public option to the health reform legislation so the underlying market failure is truly addressed. Reform malpractice liability. [Edit: Well, I may have changed my mind on this. I think the Heritage Foundation's tax/penalty approach currently built into Obamacare is better than a public option]

5) Put a fossil energy tax on fuels and electricity to encourage the creation and adoption of energy saving technology. Then end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan since the funding source for terrorists, our purchases of oil, will dry up.

6) Push back the retirement age for Social Security to the expected death rate, which is where it was set back when it was created. Do the same for Medicare eligibility.

7) Legalize all drugs, ESPECIALLY the really dangerous ones so we have control over their quality and can get addicts out of jail and into rehab. Set excise taxes on them so they cost the same as before. Now the U.S. treasury gets the money instead of drug kingpins in Central and South America and Afghanistan.

8) Invest, invest, invest in education. Pour as much money as you can into the public university system and then when you think you've done enough, put in some more.

9) Free up immigration completely, but raise the cost of a visa [edit: green card visa, not a tourist visa] to $3,000 (or whatever coyotes are charging). Allow for waivers for international graduate students who score in the top 1% of the GRE.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
barelyawake
Head Coach
Posts: 6,099
And1: 685
Joined: Aug 07, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1470 » by barelyawake » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:03 am

As I said, there is tons of investment money on the sidelines (and the stock market has doubled). The problem is not oppressive tax or lack of wealth at the top. Obama is lowering taxes on corporations and small businesses. He wants to increase taxes on individuals who have made out like bandits and have their money on the sidelines currently. That money is on the sidelines due to lack of customers and lack of certainly. More war and more debt certainly won't help the certainty. And rising healthcare costs means less customers.

The Bush tax cuts hurt the economy and didn't lead to more jobs. Trickle down does not work.
User avatar
pancakes3
General Manager
Posts: 9,593
And1: 3,023
Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1471 » by pancakes3 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:06 am

Trickle down doesn't mean the business takes its profits and gives all of its employees raises. Trickle down means business take profits and expands. When companies expand, they hire scientists to R&D new tech. They hire engineers to take that tech and make something marketable with it. They hire marketing people to sell that product. They hire contractors to make new factories. They hire workers to work in those factories. They hire truckers to ship those goods. Then retail hires more teenagers to sell that product. Yes a few bills here and there goes towards 7 figure bonuses, corporate retreats, and greasing politicians' palms but you can't completely deny the trickle-down effect wholesale.
Bullets -> Wizards
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,582
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1472 » by Ruzious » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:09 am

And these commercials the Republicans put out about small businesses getting hurt by the Obama administration's tax increases are such lying garbage. Small businesses and large have been able to deduct the cost of capital assets quicker than in any point in history due to changes during Obama's first 4 years as President, and tax rates have not gone up. When you see a Republican commercial with yet another old fart actor saying he can't take another 4 years of Obama trying to kill his small business, change the channel.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1473 » by Induveca » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:36 am

I don't even know how to respond. SPECIFIC issues for the CURRENT election have been summarized into talking points over the past 5 elections.

It's sad, I was raised to believe the US was above the poilitics I grew up around in the 3rd world. Apparently many of you fall for the same talking points of those in rural parts of the 3rd world. But US politicans do wrap those same issues in fancy multiple syllable words!

It's not about the parties, it's about the actual problems facing the country and the ability to comprehend the true motivations of each candidate once they're in power.

Socialism when you're broke? Really? Let's split up something we don't have.

Romney says create jobs, empower job creators. It's a longshot but better than splitting a piece of bread 10 ways.

Welcome to the 2nd world. Sad. I can't stand either candidate, I'm aiming for 2016. 4 more years of deadlock results in zero manufacturing jobs for a generation. A service economy with nothing to service is not a good thing.

Americans need to dump their credit cards, welfare, food stamps, pell grants, deductions, write-offs and take RISKS. Socialism isn't a risk, it's a pathetic/lazy excuse for capitalism.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,595
And1: 10,057
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1474 » by penbeast0 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:02 am

Just to piss off both sides . . .

(a) Cut the minimum wage to $5.00/hour (or get rid of it altogether) but have the U.S. government match that $5.00 per hour for all U.S. Citizens that work for up to 40 hours per week.
(b) Include a special provision allowing married American citizens to also take that $5.00/hour matching rate for stay-at-home mothers with children under 18
(c) Pay for it by eliminating all programs that have any income eligibility . . . instead put programs in place with no incentives for poverty. If you put government sponsered food kitchens out there and Bill Gates wants to eat at it . . . fine.
(d) Eliminate ALL tax deductions except the personal deduction and make it a flat tax but that flat tax should include paying for social security -- no capping this rate. This eliminates regressive taxation while not creating punitive tax rates that would encourage our most productive citizens to live overseas as used to happen with the high millionaire tax rates in the old days.
(e) Eliminate all government requirements for businesses to provide health insurance for workers but mandate that all parents MUST have a certain minimum level of health insurance for their children under 18 and to fail to do so is a prima facie case of child neglect (prima facie means you can disprove it if you have legitimate reasons not to provide it). On the flip side of this, require all children of seniors (defined for this and social security as is most appropriate) to also carry a certain minimum level of health insurance for their parents. If the parents choose to pay for it, fine -- if not, the family should pay for it as most of our families do without having to artificially impoverish seniors to qualify for federal supports.


-----


And, in an unrelated note. Lower the drinking age to 18 or HS graduation (whichever comes first) but raise the driving age to 3 years after eligibility for drinking. This has several benefits. (a) No HS student I know has the slightest difficulty getting their hands on either alcohol or some other mind altering substance -- I didn't when I went to school here either; getting their hands on a car if they have no license is a lot harder. (b) It will reduce the very high death rate among teenage drivers who kill themselves and others. Whether it's maturity (hard to believe they can be more immature than we were trying to drive Burdette Rd. at 70mph to see if we could get all 4 wheels off the ground on hills -- in a residential neighborhood), texting while driving, or just hitting 21 (or getting a fake ID) so you can first go to bars and experiment, teenage drivers are killing themselves and their great potential at far too high a rate. (c) it will force kids without chauffers to actually learn to use bus/subway/etc. systems during their early working/college years when most seem to spend all their money paying insurance rates thus promoting green habits and providing more ridership for less fuel comsumptive transportation methods.

There . . . . that would lose the election for either candidate by pissing off a good 30% of the swing voters fast.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
barelyawake
Head Coach
Posts: 6,099
And1: 685
Joined: Aug 07, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1475 » by barelyawake » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:15 am

We are not broke. As I said, there are trillions on the sidelines. Wealth is too concentrated in a few hands.

Our government is underfunded by design. You are right that we need to look at decades. Over decades, Republicans have continued to cut taxes on the very rich to defund the government (because they wanted an excuse to cut the government). This was all done by design. Bush's tax cuts, and two unfunded wars, were by design. The goal was to starve government.

And "trickle down" economics means individuals at the top get tax cuts (usually at the expense of middle class programs), and by getting those cuts the theory is they supposedly will create more and better jobs for the middle. It never works. The money never trickles down. That is why Bush sr. called the theory voodoo economics. You build a healthy economy by building the middle class (expanding the number of customers). Not by helping the top, at the expense of the middle, who then have no one to sell to.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1476 » by Nivek » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:48 pm

Indu: I'm not sure how to respond to you because your posts seem based on emotion and personal experience. Which is fine -- folks can cast their vote, throw their support...whatever...based on whatever criteria they want. I do not mean that as a criticism. I haven't had your experiences so, I can't really address much of what you're saying in a constructive way.

I do agree with your thoughts on the US party system. It's artificially polarizing and creates an illusion of choice. I don't think there's truly that much difference between Obama and Romney. Although it's kinda tough to tell with Romney because of his ever-changing positions.

I don't see Obama as a socialist or a radical. I'm skeptical that a modest tax increase is going to cause businesses to flee, manufacturers to eschew America, and lead to the death of the American economy. I think businesses will locate where it's advantageous to locate, and that equation will surely involve more than just looking at the tax code. Maybe it'll be more advantageous for YOU to conduct your business elsewhere, but I'm wary of generalizing from anyone's personal experience, including my own.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,722
And1: 23,218
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1477 » by nate33 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:10 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Just to piss off both sides . . .

(a) Cut the minimum wage to $5.00/hour (or get rid of it altogether) but have the U.S. government match that $5.00 per hour for all U.S. Citizens that work for up to 40 hours per week.
(b) Include a special provision allowing married American citizens to also take that $5.00/hour matching rate for stay-at-home mothers with children under 18
(c) Pay for it by eliminating all programs that have any income eligibility . . . instead put programs in place with no incentives for poverty. If you put government sponsered food kitchens out there and Bill Gates wants to eat at it . . . fine.
(d) Eliminate ALL tax deductions except the personal deduction and make it a flat tax but that flat tax should include paying for social security -- no capping this rate. This eliminates regressive taxation while not creating punitive tax rates that would encourage our most productive citizens to live overseas as used to happen with the high millionaire tax rates in the old days.
(e) Eliminate all government requirements for businesses to provide health insurance for workers but mandate that all parents MUST have a certain minimum level of health insurance for their children under 18 and to fail to do so is a prima facie case of child neglect (prima facie means you can disprove it if you have legitimate reasons not to provide it). On the flip side of this, require all children of seniors (defined for this and social security as is most appropriate) to also carry a certain minimum level of health insurance for their parents. If the parents choose to pay for it, fine -- if not, the family should pay for it as most of our families do without having to artificially impoverish seniors to qualify for federal supports.

I agree with several of these concepts. The idea is to provide a decent "safety net" for low income workers without disincentivizing work.

I don't think some of these plans would work to well in practice, however. For example, your proposal to have government match all minimum wage workers dollar for dollar would only result in employers paying only the minimum wage and nothing more (until the worker was worth more than $10 an hour). The end result would be a huge cost to the taxpayer.

I'd do it like this:

- Everyone pays a 20% flat tax, starting on the first dollar earned.
- Every adult gets a $5000 tax credit just for being an American citizen not in jail.
- All other federal programs are eliminated except for health care which is a different subject
- Minimum wage is $5.00 per hour.
- Business tax rate is 0% (or maybe up to 10%).

A married couple with a family, with nobody working, would still get 10 grand a year from government. That's enough for a roof over their head and the bare minimum of food. (States could supplement this system if their voters decided to do so.)

If Dad gets a minimum wage job for 2000 hours a year, he earns $10,000 and pays $2000 in taxes. Effectively, his $5000 tax credit dropped to $3000. (His wife still gets her $5000 tax credit.) Dad's total government subsidy decreased, but not by enough to be a disincentive to work. After all, $18,000 a year for the family is better than $10,000.

Once an individual earns $25,000, or a couple earns $50,000, their tax payments would equal their tax credit, and their effective tax rate is zero. All marginal income thereafter is taxed at 20%. There are no other deductions.

The numbers might need to be tweaked a bit to balance the books. Maybe a $4000 tax credit is more appropriate, plus another $1000 for each kid. Or maybe the tax rate might need to be 22% or so, with a higher supertax bracket of 28% once income exceeds $150,000.

The idea is to have a relatively low tax environment to attract investment, and for businesses to be able to afford entry level wages that can compete with China and other low cost countries. Effectively, the tax system subsidizes low income workers, rather than subsidizing laziness and unemployment.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,722
And1: 23,218
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1478 » by nate33 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:11 pm

barelyawake wrote:We are not broke. As I said, there are trillions on the sidelines. Wealth is too concentrated in a few hands.

Our government is underfunded by design. You are right that we need to look at decades. Over decades, Republicans have continued to cut taxes on the very rich to defund the government (because they wanted an excuse to cut the government). This was all done by design. Bush's tax cuts, and two unfunded wars, were by design. The goal was to starve government.

And "trickle down" economics means individuals at the top get tax cuts (usually at the expense of middle class programs), and by getting those cuts the theory is they supposedly will create more and better jobs for the middle. It never works. The money never trickles down. That is why Bush sr. called the theory voodoo economics. You build a healthy economy by building the middle class (expanding the number of customers). Not by helping the top, at the expense of the middle, who then have no one to sell to.

We are broke. The wealth on the sidelines pales in comparison to the debt. If you raise rates on the wealthy, you will have capital flight and even more poverty and economic stagnation.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,136
And1: 4,792
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1479 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:31 pm

Replace social security payments and income tax with a VAT. That's a flat tax that doesn't disincentivize anything.

What's the point of minimum wage anyway? Who gets it besides teenagers? I tried to get a babysitter in MD and couldn't find anyone who would accept less than $15/hr.

Are we broke? As the strongest economy in the world, people are willing to pay a premium for U.S. bonds. The result is that when we loan money abroad, we get a higher interest rate than we have to pay when we borrow from abroad. Last time I did the math, it was for 1992 and the difference was about $100 billion a year, enough to finance about $2 trillion of the debt in perpetuity basically for free. I don't know what the amount is now.

As technology advances and productivity increases, it becomes easier to raise money in the future to pay down debt than it is today. So there's another chunk of debt that "pays for itself" based on expected future increases in productivity.

Most countries carry debt from year to year that's between 25-75% of their GDP. When the Mexico financial crisis occurred, its debt was about 125% of GDP, similarly for the Asian financial crises and if memory serves the Russian financial crisis as well. The IMF recommends that everybody try to keep their debt below 75% of GDP.

Up until recently our debt was below 75% of GDP. We are above 100% now. The current debt is $16 trillion. GDP is about $15 trillion, so we want the debt to be below $11 trillion. So when Nate says we're "broke," what he means is that we're in the kind of territory where we have observed other countries defaulting on their debt. It's entirely possible, if we don't all work together to work something out, that we could default on our debt. Imagine what happened in Greece, and the effect that had on the world economy. Greece's GDP is $0.3 trillion. The U.S. economy is 50 times bigger. So yeah, we need to work something out.

Obama and his Dem counterparts in Congress had negotiated a deal with Republican leaders that would lower the debt by $5 trillion eventually. The Tea Partiers rejected it. So, whose fault is that? Democrats want as little of the debt reduction as possible to come out of Social Security and Medicare, and the Republicans want as little debt reduction as possible to come out of the military and tax increases. Is it so unreasonable to propose a deal that reaches a compromise? Isn't that what representative democracy is about, so that you don't just screw one side of the country for the benefit of the other? Tea Partiers decided to use the threat of forcing a worldwide economic meltdown to short-circuit the democratic process in order to screw the Dems, and they've threatened to do it again. That's terrorism.

In the sixties, MLK Jr. forced action on civil rights by leading a march on Washington DC and keeping it peaceful and dignified, proving wrong everybody who thought the timing was wrong and bad things could happen (including JFK). You can lead boldly without holding the world economy hostage. We just don't have those kinds of leaders anymore. Everybody's afraid to make mistakes, rather than having confidence in their ability to take risks and to hold everything together by being positive and inspiring. I don't see that from the Tea Party. I see a bunch of fear-mongering terrorists. If we have to rely on them to bring our debt back under control, G-d help us all.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,582
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1480 » by Ruzious » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:13 pm

Playing devil's advocate re flat tax and VAT ideas:
What happens to charitable organizations - when the tax incentive to give to charities goes away?
What happens to the housing industry when the mortgage interest deduction goes away and interest rates go up?
What happens to people's savings when there is no tax incentive to contribute to 401k's and IRA's?
What happens to the banking industry because of the previous 2 issues?
If you switch to a flat tax, exceptions are inevitable, and eventually you end up with a tax code just as cumbersome as what you have today.
Does the VAT include a tax on food and/or medicines? If yes, it's probably going to end up being a regressive tax. If not, what rate would it have to be to raise adequate funds for the nation? Is the rate going to be so high that low and mid class people buy less - meaning the economy contracts and there are fewer jobs?
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Return to Washington Wizards