Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[tontoz]

EG sucks and needs to go but let's not pretend that Noel is proving that teams were wrong in passing on him. His offense has been a complete train wreck. He is last in the entire NBA in offensive RPM.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... /sort/ORPM

[Dark Faze]

He hasn't proven it yet, but its trending that way. Nerlens being bad offensively isn't a big deal. His job is defense and rim protection, which he's trending towards being very good at.

[FAH1223]

Only 12 games left, we got to tank and hope for a humiliating playoff series.

[closg00]

Only 12 games left, we got to tank and hope for a humiliating playoff series.

It is our best hope, but it isn't a gimme considering Ted's relationship with Ernie. Also, attendance has been good which is all Ted really cares about anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[fishercob]

For Grunfeld and Wizards, Trade Was a 'No-Brainer'

Grunfeld said the move was not an indictment of the 2009 draft class. "All along, we've been saying we like the draft and we can get a player. I didn't know how long it would take for this player to develop. I didn't feel like there was anybody at the five spot who could fit into our rotation," Grunfeld said. "I don't think there are any guarantees in the draft and people are saying this is a weaker draft than normal, so for us to be able to turn the No. 5 pick into two players who can help us immediately and help us for years to come, we felt very good about it."

Grunfeld added that it wasn't necessary to wait and see which player fell to the team at No. 5. "We knew who was going to be at the five spot and we felt that these players were going to help us a lot more than anybody we would've gotten in the draft," Grunfeld said. "A lot of times what happens, when you wait on situations, the other team might get better offers along the way. Then the trade might go away. We felt good about this."

Foye, Miller and Curry's stats in '09-'10

Miller and Foye were both in the final year of their contracts.

People like to say, "ah, that;s ancient history," or to blame Abe Pollin's win-now mandate for this deal. But that is a specious and ridiculous. Let's unpack these ridiculous quotes -- and then wonder how on earth Ted Leonsis thought keeping Ernie was in the franchise's best interest.


I didn't know how long it would take for this player to develop: Well, no one knows for sure. But it wouldn't be that hard to look at historical trends and make a reasonable prediction. Are you saying that history tells you that by the time this player develops, it will be "too late?" Okay. If so, say that.

I didn't feel like there was anybody at the five spot who could fit into our rotation: As you can see from the stats above, Curry was better than Foye the moment he stepped on an NBA floor. So what Ernie "felt" was obviously wrong.

I don't think there are any guarantees in the draft and people are saying this is a weaker draft than normal People are saying? PEOPLE ARE SAYING? What people? Chad Ford? Jonny Givony? People under your employ? You? What people, Ernie? See, it's your JOB to figure out and decide how to manage the team's resources -- entirely independent of what "people are saying." Assclown.

so for us to be able to turn the No. 5 pick into two players who can help us immediately If you had a mandate to trade the pick for guys that didn't need ramp up time, fine. But any GM worth half a sh*t had to know that any "help" Miller and Foye was going to provide was going to be marginal. Both were "just guys," never needle-movers.

and help us for years to come WHAT?!?!?! Miller was in the final year of his contract? Foye had a team option coming off a rookie deal that was ultimately declined. Why/how could anyone think that these guys were going to help for years to come. It defies all logic and reason.

We knew who was going to be at the five spot and we felt that these players were going to help us a lot more than anybody we would've gotten in the draft: WRONG.

A lot of times what happens, when you wait on situations, the other team might get better offers along the way. Then the trade might go away. We felt good about this." Classic Ernie. Did it ever occur to you to see if you might get better offers for your lottery pick?


How how how how how how how could Ted read these quotes and decide to keep this guy?

[tontoz]

For Grunfeld and Wizards, Trade Was a 'No-Brainer'

Grunfeld said the move was not an indictment of the 2009 draft class. "All along, we've been saying we like the draft and we can get a player. I didn't know how long it would take for this player to develop. I didn't feel like there was anybody at the five spot who could fit into our rotation," Grunfeld said. "I don't think there are any guarantees in the draft and people are saying this is a weaker draft than normal, so for us to be able to turn the No. 5 pick into two players who can help us immediately and help us for years to come, we felt very good about it."

Grunfeld added that it wasn't necessary to wait and see which player fell to the team at No. 5. "We knew who was going to be at the five spot and we felt that these players were going to help us a lot more than anybody we would've gotten in the draft," Grunfeld said. "A lot of times what happens, when you wait on situations, the other team might get better offers along the way. Then the trade might go away. We felt good about this."

Foye, Miller and Curry's stats in '09-'10

Miller and Foye were both in the final year of their contracts.

People like to say, "ah, that;s ancient history," or to blame Abe Pollin's win-now mandate for this deal. But that is a specious and ridiculous. Let's unpack these ridiculous quotes -- and then wonder how on earth Ted Leonsis thought keeping Ernie was in the franchise's best interest.


I didn't know how long it would take for this player to develop: Well, no one knows for sure. But it wouldn't be that hard to look at historical trends and make a reasonable prediction. Are you saying that history tells you that by the time this player develops, it will be "too late?" Okay. If so, say that.

I didn't feel like there was anybody at the five spot who could fit into our rotation: As you can see from the stats above, Curry was better than Foye the moment he stepped on an NBA floor. So what Ernie "felt" was obviously wrong.

I don't think there are any guarantees in the draft and people are saying this is a weaker draft than normal People are saying? PEOPLE ARE SAYING? What people? Chad Ford? Jonny Givony? People under your employ? You? What people, Ernie? See, it's your JOB to figure out and decide how to manage the team's resources -- entirely independent of what "people are saying." Assclown.

so for us to be able to turn the No. 5 pick into two players who can help us immediately If you had a mandate to trade the pick for guys that didn't need ramp up time, fine. But any GM worth half a sh*t had to know that any "help" Miller and Foye was going to provide was going to be marginal. Both were "just guys," never needle-movers.

and help us for years to come WHAT?!?!?! Miller was in the final year of his contract? Foye had a team option coming off a rookie deal that was ultimately declined. Why/how could anyone think that these guys were going to help for years to come. It defies all logic and reason.

We knew who was going to be at the five spot and we felt that these players were going to help us a lot more than anybody we would've gotten in the draft: WRONG.

A lot of times what happens, when you wait on situations, the other team might get better offers along the way. Then the trade might go away. We felt good about this." Classic Ernie. Did it ever occur to you to see if you might get better offers for your lottery pick?


How how how how how how how could Ted read these quotes and decide to keep this guy?

It sure was a no-brainer. Only a GM without a brain would make that trade.

[closg00]

My new sig:

#FireGrunfeld ~ Because he believed that Stephen Curry couldn't help us and Jan Vesely could.

[gambitx777]

Fire him now, he did nothing to win this year! he had the chance to make trades happen or pick up players, or to cut dead weight. He did nothing.

[TGW]

He and Wittman should be gone after the first round exit....PERIOD.

[TheSecretWeapon]

and help us for years to come WHAT?!?!?! Miller was in the final year of his contract? Foye had a team option coming off a rookie deal that was ultimately declined. Why/how could anyone think that these guys were going to help for years to come. It defies all logic and reason.

Plus, Miller was 29 years old, and was coming off a down year. He actually did bounce back slightly in Washington, but was pretty average -- PPA: 117. And his production declined from there.

Foye was still young, but had been...well...not very good. Looking back, it's a Maynor-esque acquisition. Grunfeld thought he was getting a guy who'd contribute "for years to come," but the guy wasn't any good. Foye had played three seasons. His PPA in each: 68, 74, 79. In PPA, 100 = average and higher is better. In Washington, he posted a 71. Last season was the best of his career -- PPA: 95.

[FAH1223]

I wish Morey was the Wizards GM

He finds young players and stashes them in the D-League all year and when its time they step up

Nick Johsnon played good D on Wall

[hands11]

Picking Noel was a complete no-brainer.

He would have complemented the bigs Washington already had on the roster, and could have developed alongside Wall and Beal to take over when Nene's contract ran out.

Then again, from the way Washington has handled Porters development, who knows how he would have turned out.

This front office scouted Porter so heavily that they felt he had more potential than Noel, and their first order of business was to give him a taste of professional basketball by playing him out of position at shooting guard.

Absurd, but that's how things go with this franchise.

Seems to be their go to play. Draft player... Change their position and ask them to do things they aren't good at while not focusing on things they are good at. Mess players head up. Lose asset.

Mack.. SG.. turn into PG
Singleton 3&D SF... turn into PF
Ves transition SF.. turn into PF and Center
GR3 SF gunner .. turn into 3&D

If there was ever an overwhelming reason to fire EG, this would be it. Good pick or bad pick, the last thing you want to do is not maximize the skills of that good or bad pick. This goes to a basic cluelessness about people and how they are wired.

And while many might not agree, I actually find the GR3 pick the most troubling of the group. It was EGs falling off the wagon pick. I thought he had learned his lesson regarding players like that.

I'm feeling like there is a higher chance then not that we get a new front office this off season. EG does ok with trades and sometimes does very good with them. But if you want to be the best, you need to more complete GM. That includes drafting the right players and then using them properly. Not being good at that is kind of a big deal.

And while I can blame some of that on the coach, and having a great coach would likely mask or fix some of that, that still doesn't explain GR3. That's my Canary in the coal mine.

EG was ranked as one of the worst GMs under Abe. Since Ted has come on board, EG has risen to 20th with Ted at 16th already as one of the newer owners. Randy. He is 26th. So getting a great coach would likely raise Ted up into the low teens and EG to just about average or just above that. Which is were some of us said he belongs. But at that point, he will be the low hanging fruit of the group, so why not just skip that step and go right to elite GM and coach ? We don't want to waste the Wall years.

The good news. I think the team is in the best position it has been in for over 25 year to actually make the move and upgrade. They didn't trade away all their assets. They aren't cap strapped. They have some young prospects. And their imagine is vastly improved. And they have WallStar. Plus Ted is a vastly better owner then Abe. They should be able to pick from the best out there. That's important to take from all of this because it wasn't the case before.

I can understand Ted wanting to keep EG around for this part of the rebuild. But at this point, he needs to look at this with fresh eyes. Now would be a good transition point and personally, I think Ted had this point in mind which is how he structured EGs contract. EG was a comfortable transition GM for Ted as a new majority owner so I get him keeping him around in his first years. But now its time for Ted to step up as owner and get in with the big boys.

After many years and 100s of posts, I think this thread title might finally be accurate.

I think we are in the Countdown to a new GM. But since EG is not under contract, it won't be framed as a firing. Just a transition to a new GM.

[McFilthy]

I am not a hocky fanatic, but I am rooting hard for the Capitals to make the playoffs and make some noise there this season because it could validate making changes for the Wizards as well. After the 2013-14 season, the Capitals had a disappointing year. They had a looooong-time GM who was widely panned by fans for not improving the player personnel enough and a coach who could not seem to get as much out of the talent that the team had. The result was a new GM and new head coach, despite Leonsis' seemingly infinite patience. From what I can gather, people seem to respect the Capital's coach more (Trotz) though I haven't heard much about the new GM.

I know there are differences in the situations of the last year's Caps and this year's Wizards, but if the Capitals do well this year, I pray Ted will consider acting in a similar way to make changes to the general manager and head coach of the Bullets

I was planning on going to a Wizards playoff game or two this year, but maybe I shouldn't as a tiny protest of EG/Wittman.

[FAH1223]

I am not a hocky fanatic, but I am rooting hard for the Capitals to make the playoffs and make some noise there this season because it could validate making changes for the Wizards as well. After the 2013-14 season, the Capitals had a disappointing year. They had a looooong-time GM who was widely panned by fans for not improving the player personnel enough and a coach who could not seem to get as much out of the talent that the team had. The result was a new GM and new head coach, despite Leonsis' seemingly infinite patience. From what I can gather, people seem to respect the Capital's coach more (Trotz) though I haven't heard much about the new GM.

I know there are differences in the situations of the last year's Caps and this year's Wizards, but if the Capitals do well this year, I pray Ted will consider acting in a similar way to make changes to the general manager and head coach of the Bullets

I was planning on going to a Wizards playoff game or two this year, but maybe I shouldn't as a tiny protest of EG/Wittman.

If the Caps play the Rangers, they won't make it out of Round 1

Will lose a Game 7 in New York

[DCZards]

And while many might not agree, I actually find the GR3 pick the most troubling of the group. It was EGs falling off the wagon pick. I thought he had learned his lesson regarding players like that.

I'm feeling like there is a higher chance then not that we get a new front office this off season. EG does ok with trades and sometimes does very good with them. But if you want to be the best, you need to more complete GM. That includes drafting the right players and then using them properly. Not being good at that is kind of a big deal.

And while I can blame some of that on the coach, and having a great coach would likely mask or fix some of that, that still doesn't explain GR3. That's my Canary in the coal mine.

I still don't have a problem with the GR Jr. pick. He was widely considered to have first round talent. So picking him in the second round was a risk worth taking, imo.

Hopefully, the GR Jr. gets his act together and makes it back to the NBA.

[dckingsfan]

We had just come off the knucklehead era - I agree with hands on this one... troubling.

[queridiculo]

The good news. I think the team is in the best position it has been in for over 25 year to actually make the move and upgrade. They didn't trade away all their assets. They aren't cap strapped. They have some young prospects. And their imagine is vastly improved. And they have WallStar. Plus Ted is a vastly better owner then Abe. They should be able to pick from the best out there. That's important to take from all of this because it wasn't the case before.

You're about as delusional about the state of this franchise as Grunfail and Leonsis themselves.

This franchise is absolutely barren with respect to assets, and this cap space you speak off won't be available until 2016/17 when more than half of the teams in the league will be flush with cash to reload their rosters.

How much of a free agency destination do you expect the Wizards to be with three NBA starters, a backup PF and a NBA hopeful on the roster?

To suggest that this team is in the best situation in 25 years is a **** joke.

This franchise has no identity, no direction, and as constructed, not a prayer to sustain or build on the recent success they've had.

You can continue with your shameful theory about Pollin being to blame for Grunfelds subpar management of this team, but any objective analysis of Ernie's moves leading up to this season paints a different picture.

Heading into the 2016 season the Wizards are a candidate for a thorough rebuild, from top to bottom.

[payitforward]

Picking Noel was a complete no-brainer.

He would have complemented the bigs Washington already had on the roster, and could have developed alongside Wall and Beal to take over when Nene's contract ran out.

Then again, from the way Washington has handled Porters development, who knows how he would have turned out.

This front office scouted Porter so heavily that they felt he had more potential than Noel, and their first order of business was to give him a taste of professional basketball by playing him out of position at shooting guard.

Absurd, but that's how things go with this franchise.

Seems to be their go to play. Draft player... Change their position and ask them to do things they aren't good at while not focusing on things they are good at. Mess players head up. Lose asset.

Mack.. SG.. turn into PG
Singleton 3&D SF... turn into PF
Ves transition SF.. turn into PF and Center
GR3 SF gunner .. turn into 3&D

If there was ever an overwhelming reason to fire EG, this would be it. Good pick or bad pick, the last thing you want to do is not maximize the skills of that good or bad pick. This goes to a basic cluelessness about people and how they are wired.

And while many might not agree, I actually find the GR3 pick the most troubling of the group. It was EGs falling off the wagon pick. I thought he had learned his lesson regarding players like that.

I'm feeling like there is a higher chance then not that we get a new front office this off season. EG does ok with trades and sometimes does very good with them. But if you want to be the best, you need to more complete GM. That includes drafting the right players and then using them properly. Not being good at that is kind of a big deal.

And while I can blame some of that on the coach, and having a great coach would likely mask or fix some of that, that still doesn't explain GR3. That's my Canary in the coal mine.

EG was ranked as one of the worst GMs under Abe. Since Ted has come on board, EG has risen to 20th with Ted at 16th already as one of the newer owners. Randy. He is 26th. So getting a great coach would likely raise Ted up into the low teens and EG to just about average or just above that. Which is were some of us said he belongs. But at that point, he will be the low hanging fruit of the group, so why not just skip that step and go right to elite GM and coach ? We don't want to waste the Wall years.

The good news. I think the team is in the best position it has been in for over 25 year to actually make the move and upgrade. They didn't trade away all their assets. They aren't cap strapped. They have some young prospects. And their imagine is vastly improved. And they have WallStar. Plus Ted is a vastly better owner then Abe. They should be able to pick from the best out there. That's important to take from all of this because it wasn't the case before.

I can understand Ted wanting to keep EG around for this part of the rebuild. But at this point, he needs to look at this with fresh eyes. Now would be a good transition point and personally, I think Ted had this point in mind which is how he structured EGs contract. EG was a comfortable transition GM for Ted as a new majority owner so I get him keeping him around in his first years. But now its time for Ted to step up as owner and get in with the big boys.

After many years and 100s of posts, I think this thread title might finally be accurate.

I think we are in the Countdown to a new GM. But since EG is not under contract, it won't be framed as a firing. Just a transition to a new GM.

I sure hope you are right!!

[payitforward]

And while many might not agree, I actually find the GR3 pick the most troubling of the group. It was EGs falling off the wagon pick. I thought he had learned his lesson regarding players like that.

I'm feeling like there is a higher chance then not that we get a new front office this off season. EG does ok with trades and sometimes does very good with them. But if you want to be the best, you need to more complete GM. That includes drafting the right players and then using them properly. Not being good at that is kind of a big deal.

And while I can blame some of that on the coach, and having a great coach would likely mask or fix some of that, that still doesn't explain GR3. That's my Canary in the coal mine.

I still don't have a problem with the GR Jr. pick. He was widely considered to have first round talent. So picking him in the second round was a risk worth taking, imo.

Hopefully, the GR Jr. gets his act together and makes it back to the NBA.

You can make an argument for it on those terms if you want. A R2 pick is always a risk, and because it's a cheap risk it's one that's always worth taking.

And there's the problem. If you rate NBA GMs over the last decade just on how well they manage R2 of the draft -- leave everything else out -- you get to put Ernie Grunfeld at the bottom of the list (where he is on just about every other meaningful metric too). I.e. it's not "a problem with the GR Jr. pick". It's a problem with the GM doing the picking.

As to Rice being "widely considered to have first round talent" -- please note all the guys *not* so considered, taken by other GMs in R2 that year and every year, who go on to have outstanding, productive NBA careers.

[Nigel Tufnel]

From time to time, I like to torture myself by checking up on Jordan Clarkson's progress. This seemed like a good time given his buzzer-beater yesterday. A couple of weeks ago, in response to fans clammoring for the Lakers to lose so they can lock in a top five draft pick, Clarkson said, "I am the pick." Gotta love it. Oh Ernie, after 20 years of underwhelming performance, isn't it time to get your head out of your butt and move on? Or at least hire someone with a track record of success in the draft!

By Month GP MIN FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FT% REB AST BLK STL PTS
October 3 14.0 .308 0.7-1.3 .500 .833 2.0 1.3 0.0 0.3 5.0
November 7 11.4 .440 0.1-0.4 .333 .800 1.1 0.4 0.1 0.7 5.0
December 6 9.5 .300 0.3-0.7 .500 .625 1.2 0.7 0.2 0.5 3.2
January 9 23.8 .413 0.2-1.4 .154 .870 2.3 2.0 0.3 0.7 9.8
February 10 27.5 .477 1.0-2.7 .370 .846 3.6 4.0 0.0 1.1 13.8
March 16 32.4 .452 0.7-2.6 .268 .846 4.8 5.2 0.3 0.8 15.8