Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

No. George needs to play healthy for at least 50 games.

[nate33]

So basically, watch tapes of Chris Matthews and do the opposite. Got it.

In Matthews defense, he asked one of the best questions I've ever heard. He had on some New York politician when Clinton was running for New York's other senate seat. The politician was a lifelong resident of the state and had held several public offices in New York. Matthews' first question: Tell me (whatever the hell the guy's name was) -- Why New York?

Tangent Alert...

When I was in Iowa for the 25th anniversary celebration of the film Field of Dreams, I had the chance to meet Bob Costas. We shook hands and I told him he was number two on my "Top Interviewers" list. Costas says: "That's pretty cool. Who's number one?" I told him it's Terry Gross (NPR's Fresh Air). He nods and says: "Yeah, she's great."

Fresh Air and Ira Glass' This American Life are - or at least have been - the best shows on radio.

Ok, a what if this, this, and that happened trade thought: Say Otto and Beal get off to good solid starts and Indy gets off to a terrible start - with Paul George grumbling about wanting a change? Are you willing to trade Otto, Beal, Nene (filler) and a first for George and Buddinger (expiring)? Then move Oubre to the 2bre. Then next year have George and Durant at the forwards - keeping in mind that George has grown to a solid 6'9? George and Durant together... with Wall... and Gortat and Oubre. Would that be fair?

Tough call. If Otto and Beal get off to "good solid starts", it may start looking like the two of them could pan out to be better than George.

I think I'd rather see if it was possible to obtain Terrence Jones without giving up any of Beal, Porter or Oubre. A lineup of Wall, Beal, Porter, Durant, Jones and Gortat would be the best top 6 in the league. Sato, Oubre and Humphries round out the bench.

[bsilver]

So basically, watch tapes of Chris Matthews and do the opposite. Got it.

In Matthews defense, he asked one of the best questions I've ever heard. He had on some New York politician when Clinton was running for New York's other senate seat. The politician was a lifelong resident of the state and had held several public offices in New York. Matthews' first question: Tell me (whatever the hell the guy's name was) -- Why New York?

Tangent Alert...

When I was in Iowa for the 25th anniversary celebration of the film Field of Dreams, I had the chance to meet Bob Costas. We shook hands and I told him he was number two on my "Top Interviewers" list. Costas says: "That's pretty cool. Who's number one?" I told him it's Terry Gross (NPR's Fresh Air). He nods and says: "Yeah, she's great."

Fresh Air and Ira Glass' This American Life are - or at least have been - the best shows on radio.

Ok, a what if this, this, and that happened trade thought: Say Otto and Beal get off to good solid starts and Indy gets off to a terrible start - with Paul George grumbling about wanting a change? Are you willing to trade Otto, Beal, Nene (filler) and a first for George and Buddinger (expiring)? Then move Oubre to the 2bre. Then next year have George and Durant at the forwards - keeping in mind that George has grown to a solid 6'9? George and Durant together... with Wall... and Gortat and Oubre. Would that be fair?

Love NPR too.
I would do the trade assuming everyone's healthy.
But don't see the Pacers biting. At least with George they have prayer of being good with a maturing Myles Turner, and another free agent down the line. With Beal and Porter instead they're destined for middle of the pack at best. Also, they've invested in Monta Ellis so with Beal probably getting a max deal, there's quite a bit of wasted money.

[fishercob]

So basically, watch tapes of Chris Matthews and do the opposite. Got it.

In Matthews defense, he asked one of the best questions I've ever heard. He had on some New York politician when Clinton was running for New York's other senate seat. The politician was a lifelong resident of the state and had held several public offices in New York. Matthews' first question: Tell me (whatever the hell the guy's name was) -- Why New York?

Tangent Alert...

When I was in Iowa for the 25th anniversary celebration of the film Field of Dreams, I had the chance to meet Bob Costas. We shook hands and I told him he was number two on my "Top Interviewers" list. Costas says: "That's pretty cool. Who's number one?" I told him it's Terry Gross (NPR's Fresh Air). He nods and says: "Yeah, she's great."

Fresh Air and Ira Glass' This American Life are - or at least have been - the best shows on radio.

Ok, a what if this, this, and that happened trade thought: Say Otto and Beal get off to good solid starts and Indy gets off to a terrible start - with Paul George grumbling about wanting a change? Are you willing to trade Otto, Beal, Nene (filler) and a first for George and Buddinger (expiring)? Then move Oubre to the 2bre. Then next year have George and Durant at the forwards - keeping in mind that George has grown to a solid 6'9? George and Durant together... with Wall... and Gortat and Oubre. Would that be fair?

I'd be all over that. This is a superstar league and George is legit. That said, I just can't see Indy trading George. They are so much more functional an organization than Sacto; I just don't see Bird hitting the panic button like that.

[Dat2U]

Thing is Paul George isn't quite at the superstar level. He had about 2 months of superstar play at the beginning of '13-14 season but couldn't maintain his shooting stroke or offensive efficiency. Defensively he's an elite perimeter player, offensively he's a streaky shooter that will carry you some nights and drag you down on others. Plus I want to see him get back that burst before he got hurt. He seemed tentative and cautious at the end of last year.

[Ruzious]

Meh, he's definitely a superstar at both ends of the court - if... he's 100% recovered. He showed that in his matchups with Lebron. Fisher said it exactly right - It's a supastar league when it comes to being a championship contender. That's why Indy likely doesn't pull the trigger. CCJ is probably right to wait - though I think 50 games is too long. If he's back 100%, we'll be able to tell before then.

[fishercob]

Every way I look at this, I value George more than Cousins -- even with the injury.

He's been soooo much more productive than Cousins has over the course of his career. They are the same age.

I'd include Porter in a George trade, but not in a Cousins one.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Meh, he's definitely a superstar at both ends of the court - if... he's 100% recovered. He showed that in his matchups with Lebron. Fisher said it exactly right - It's a supastar league when it comes to being a championship contender. That's why Indy likely doesn't pull the trigger. CCJ is probably right to wait - though I think 50 games is too long. If he's back 100%, we'll be able to tell before then.

Thirty games?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Every way I look at this, I value George more than Cousins -- even with the injury.

He's been soooo much more productive than Cousins has over the course of his career. They are the same age.

I'd include Porter in a George trade, but not in a Cousins one.

No, I disagree.

Boogie and John went to a Final Four together. The kicked butt in a rookie sophomore game. They complement one another.

Adding George would mean subtracting rookie contract Otto Porter. The way I see it Otto might darn near hold is own against George.

I think all the Wizards need to do is figure a way to keep both Cousins and Gorat with Wall, Porter and the shooters they have; and this is a championship contender.

[Ruzious]

Every way I look at this, I value George more than Cousins -- even with the injury.

He's been soooo much more productive than Cousins has over the course of his career. They are the same age.

I'd include Porter in a George trade, but not in a Cousins one.

No, I disagree.

Boogie and John went to a Final Four together. The kicked butt in a rookie sophomore game. They complement one another.

Adding George would mean subtracting rookie contract Otto Porter. The way I see it Otto might darn near hold is own against George.

I think all the Wizards need to do is digit a way to keep both Cousins and Gorat with Wall, Porter and the shooters they have; and this is a championship contender.

Why do you think there wouldn't be a spacing problem with Cousins and Gortat playing together?

Re George v Otto, George is much stronger and a much more explosive athlete. He can be one of the top few forwards in the NBA for years to come. Durant and George teamed up could be the top forward pairing of this century.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Thing is Paul George isn't quite at the superstar level. He had about 2 months of superstar play at the beginning of '13-14 season but couldn't maintain his shooting stroke or offensive efficiency. Defensively he's an elite perimeter player, offensively he's a streaky shooter that will carry you some nights and drag you down on others. Plus I want to see him get back that burst before he got hurt. He seemed tentative and cautious at the end of last year.

I agree -- I don't think George stayed at an elite level even before the injury. He looked bad in the very little time he played at the end of last year.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Every way I look at this, I value George more than Cousins -- even with the injury.

He's been soooo much more productive than Cousins has over the course of his career. They are the same age.

I'd include Porter in a George trade, but not in a Cousins one.

No, I disagree.

Boogie and John went to a Final Four together. The kicked butt in a rookie sophomore game. They complement one another.

Adding George would mean subtracting rookie contract Otto Porter. The way I see it Otto might darn near hold is own against George.

I think all the Wizards need to do is digit a way to keep both Cousins and Gorat with Wall, Porter and the shooters they have; and this is a championship contender.

Why do you think there wouldn't be a spacing problem with Cousins and Gortat playing together?

Re George v Otto, George is much stronger and a much more explosive athlete. He can be one of the top few forwards in the NBA for years to come. Durant and George teamed up could be the top forward pairing of this century.

Gortat is as mobile as most PFs. Cousins is more mobile than Nene and twice the passer. Boogie can defend PF or C. He's a good defender. Those reasons. They would dominate. Big to big passes would be near unstoppable. Their rebounding would be dominant.

George and Durant and Wall will never be teammates unless KD is very old and playing for the minimum.

[Ruzious]

No, I disagree.

Boogie and John went to a Final Four together. The kicked butt in a rookie sophomore game. They complement one another.

Adding George would mean subtracting rookie contract Otto Porter. The way I see it Otto might darn near hold is own against George.

I think all the Wizards need to do is digit a way to keep both Cousins and Gorat with Wall, Porter and the shooters they have; and this is a championship contender.

Why do you think there wouldn't be a spacing problem with Cousins and Gortat playing together?

Re George v Otto, George is much stronger and a much more explosive athlete. He can be one of the top few forwards in the NBA for years to come. Durant and George teamed up could be the top forward pairing of this century.

Gortat is as mobile as most PFs. Cousins is more mobile than Nene and twice the passer. Boogie can defend PF or C. He's a good defender. Those reasons. They would dominate. Big to big passes would be near unstoppable. Their rebounding would be dominant.

George and Durant and Wall will never be teammates unless KD is very old and playing for the minimum.

Mobility isn't the issue I'm getting at. Clogging the lane on offense is the issue. We know Gortat has very limited range, and if I had Cousins, I wouldn't want him shooting long jump shots - as that's exactly what defenses would want him to do. That leaves defenses not guarding either one of them on the perimeter - allowing 2 defenders to cover whoever gets the ball in the lane. This is the same problem that Gortat and Nene had - even before Nene had his foot problems. You got to have better spacing in today's NBA.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Ruzious, pace and space is a fad that is trending but not the only way to win. Ultimately, the teams who can force others to stop try and stop them will win.

Porter and Beal will get threes at will if a monster like Cousins is on the low block. With two bigs most of the time the dominant offensive rebounder (in this scenario Cousins) is going to trail the play.

That is ideal for track star Wall and racehorses Beal and Porter, and also for Gortat. Honestly, I see Cousins being even better for the offense than Gooden.

Gortat would simply come out to the high post whenever Cousins goes to the low block. Bynum and Pau Gasol were just as big. Splitter and Duncan beat the Lebron led Heat down. Tristan Thompson and the big Russian kid Mozgov are both huge.

Pace and space shouldn't override tried and true winning basketball. Gortat can block shots and he's a very good finisher. Cousins is IMO every bit as good at PF as he is at C.

In effect, one very good C will always be on the court if you keep Gortat with Cousins.

Even in college Cousins played with Daniel Orton at C a good bit of the time.

[nate33]

Gortat would simply come out to the high post whenever Cousins goes to the low block. Bynum and Pau Gasol were just as big. Splitter and Duncan beat the Lebron led Heat down. Tristan Thompson and the big Russian kid Mozgov are both huge.

Gasol shot 49% from 16-22 feet in 09/10 and 52% in 10/11. That's lights out for a big man. (Cousins shoots 38% from that range and Gortat doesn't even shoot from there.) Also, due to injuries to both Gasol and Bynum that year, they played together just 22% of the available minutes. For the most part, Gasol and Bynum each played center, paired with Odom.

Splitter barely saw the court when they played the Lakers and almost never shared the court with Duncan. San Antonio started Diaw at PF. His passing and perimeter shooting was the secret to their success.

Tristan Thompson and Mozgov lost.

Even in college Cousins played with Daniel Orton at C a good bit of the time.

They didn't share the court much. And the college game is different because the shooters don't shoot nearly as well.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Gortat would simply come out to the high post whenever Cousins goes to the low block. Bynum and Pau Gasol were just as big. Splitter and Duncan beat the Lebron led Heat down. Tristan Thompson and the big Russian kid Mozgov are both huge.

Gasol shot 49% from 16-22 feet in 09/10 and 52% in 10/11. That's lights out for a big man. (Cousins shoots 38% from that range and Gortat doesn't even shoot from there.) Also, due to injuries to both Gasol and Bynum that year, they played together just 22% of the available minutes. For the most part, Gasol and Bynum each played center, paired with Odom.

Splitter barely saw the court when they played the Lakers and almost never shared the court with Duncan. San Antonio started Diaw at PF. His passing and perimeter shooting was the secret to their success.

Tristan Thompson and Mozgov lost.

Even in college Cousins played with Daniel Orton at C a good bit of the time.

They didn't share the court much. And the college game is different because the shooters don't shoot nearly as well.

Teammates count. Cousins with Wall and with scoring teammates will shoot way better, and even approach what Pau shot in 09/10.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html

Odom did average 30 minutes a game, but Bynum started all 23 playoff games and played 24.4 minutes a game all playoffs. Pau and Kobe were the respective iron men, but make no mistake; Bynum played approximately 15 or more minutes every single game at C with Pau at PF.

They WON the NBA championship.

Mozgov and Thompson would have won this past season if Kyrie Irving were playing in place of Matthew Delladova.

[Ruzious]

Ruzious, pace and space is a fad that is trending but not the only way to win. Ultimately, the teams who can force others to stop try and stop them will win.

Porter and Beal will get threes at will if a monster like Cousins is on the low block. With two bigs most of the time the dominant offensive rebounder (in this scenario Cousins) is going to trail the play.

That is ideal for track star Wall and racehorses Beal and Porter, and also for Gortat. Honestly, I see Cousins being even better for the offense than Gooden.

Gortat would simply come out to the high post whenever Cousins goes to the low block. Bynum and Pau Gasol were just as big. Splitter and Duncan beat the Lebron led Heat down. Tristan Thompson and the big Russian kid Mozgov are both huge.

Pace and space shouldn't override tried and true winning basketball. Gortat can block shots and he's a very good finisher. Cousins is IMO every bit as good at PF as he is at C.

In effect, one very good C will always be on the court if you keep Gortat with Cousins.

Even in college Cousins played with Daniel Orton at C a good bit of the time.

In addition to what Nate pointed out, what you're missing is that when Gortat would come out to the high post, his defender doesn't have to follow him. Instead, the defender is able to stay closer to the basket to clog the lane or be a weak-side shot-blocker on Cousins or whoever drives the lane.

And Gortat would have the same problems he mentioned he had with Nene in the lineup.

Btw, I don't recall Cousins playing with Orton at all at KY. Orton was just a scrub there who'd get minutes in scrubinsky time and when Cousins got in foul trouble.

[Ruzious]

Gortat would simply come out to the high post whenever Cousins goes to the low block. Bynum and Pau Gasol were just as big. Splitter and Duncan beat the Lebron led Heat down. Tristan Thompson and the big Russian kid Mozgov are both huge.

Gasol shot 49% from 16-22 feet in 09/10 and 52% in 10/11. That's lights out for a big man. (Cousins shoots 38% from that range and Gortat doesn't even shoot from there.) Also, due to injuries to both Gasol and Bynum that year, they played together just 22% of the available minutes. For the most part, Gasol and Bynum each played center, paired with Odom.

Splitter barely saw the court when they played the Lakers and almost never shared the court with Duncan. San Antonio started Diaw at PF. His passing and perimeter shooting was the secret to their success.

Tristan Thompson and Mozgov lost.

Even in college Cousins played with Daniel Orton at C a good bit of the time.

They didn't share the court much. And the college game is different because the shooters don't shoot nearly as well.

Teammates count. Cousins with Wall and with scoring teammates will shoot way better, and even approach what Pau shot in 09/10.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html

Odom did average 30 minutes a game, but Bynum started all 23 playoff games and played 24.4 minutes a game all playoffs. Pau and Kobe were the respective iron men, but make no mistake; Bynum played approximately 15 or more minutes every single game at C with Pau at PF.

They WON the NBA championship.

Mozgov and Thompson would have won this past season if Kyrie Irving were playing in place of Matthew Delladova.

But Gortat ain't Pau. Pau might be in the HOF some day. And Pau was excellent on the perimeter. Cousins with Pau in his prime would be an excellent combo. Cousins with Gortat is completely different.

[payitforward]

I don't even think we'd be a better team -- win more games -- if we swapped Cousins for Gortat straight up.

Basketball is not football. It's not a game of specialists, strict coordination, and discrete/complex plays. It doesn't have separate "teams" for its various functions. In basketball, a team is basically as productive as the sum of its individual players' productivity. This can be shown using stat software -- and it has been shown.

Every 40 minutes, with Cousins instead of Gortat, we'd get 3 more rebounds & 1 more steal. That's good. Ball possession is important. Unfortunately, we'd also get 3 more turnovers. Which great narrows the rebounding advantage he brings.

Every 40 minutes, Cousins takes 8.7 more shots than Gortat. Unfortunately, he only makes 2.8 of them. In other words, his FG% on those extra shots (which are shots that right now our other players would take) is 35%. That's not good. That makes us worse, not better.

Now, Cousins gets to the line at an extremely high rate and shoots a good percentage there, esp. for a big man. So that narrows the scoring efficiency gap between him and Gortat. But, Gortat still recorded a .59 TS% last year -- as against Cousins' .54 -- so, the extra points Cousins scores are scored at low efficiency. Scoring a lot of points doesn't make you a good NBA player, despite what people seem to think. Games are close; both teams score a lot of points. By and large, the team that scores more efficiently wins the game.

Cousins also commits 50% more fouls than Gortat every 40 minutes. That helps the other team's efficiency by putting them on the line more.

Demarcus Cousins is a tremendous basketball talent. He is not a great basketball player. Very good -- you bet. Better than Gortat? Not really, no.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

He is better than Gortat. I'll tell TheSecretWeapon PPA is wrong if it rates Gortat higher.

I do value Gortat's finishing, his paucity of fouls and turnovers, and his unselfishness. I think Ruz, nate, and all who disagree with me are flat wrong if they think Cousins isn't an even better PF fit than Nene next to Gortat.

The two very good players would complement each other very well.

Heck, put Blair next to Gortat and that would work BETTER than Humphries. Maybe not as well as Gooden next to Gortat, but it would be fine.

Cousins does a lot of things well and he's been playing next to scrubs. He would be a beast on the Wizards.