Political Roundtable Part XXXI

[TGW]

By the way, you old white liberals (including the one in office) had no problem incarcerating hundreds of thousands of black people over personal amounts of marijuana in order to look tough on crime.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/935341/us-support-for-legal-marijuana-since-2000-by-political-party/

Dems have generally been ahead on the issue, and those I know who call themselves Liberal have consistently been way ahead. The 'Moderate' Democrats though have not. Biden in particular has been notably behind the times. And while he says the right things in the White House, it's not like there has been a massive Federal push to decriminalize it and release prisoners whose sole 'crime' was weed. Proud of Maryland for joining the ranks of States who are doing it, even in this patchwork piece by piece way.

What you consider as "liberal", I call progressive. For example, Biden is liberal; Bernie is progressive. Manchin is a moderate. The spectrum in the US is totally skewed to a point where these terms are used interchangeably, when by worldly view, someone like Bernie is actually considered center left in most countries. Whatever...that's a wholte 'nother topic. Anyway, my point is that the Democrats/Liberals or whatever you want to call them, are using this situation to virtue signal. The fact that the libs are calling people racist for not liking this deal is preposterous. There are a ton of black people who thought this deal was bad. You gave up an international terrorist for a random female basketball player who broke laws in a foreign enemy's land. You couldn't even free the real political prisoner in the exchange.

Anyway, I'm posting this here because there seems to be some narrative being pushed that all AA's supported this exchange when that simply is not the case:

Watch on YouTube

[TGW]

And from your posts, mostly of those policies (and talking points) that come from those Russian bloggers and disinformation artists...

Do you know where "lock her up" originated? Your sources have been badly compromised and use the both sides argument with impunity.

Sir, you openly spread misinformation in this very thread. So why would I care what you have to say when it comes to misinformation? Again, you liberals expose just how hypocritical you are on damn near every topic.

examples?

Sure. That guy claims that I voted for Trump, which I didn't. He couldn't provide any proof whatsoever that I did, but continued to say it over and over again in this thread. I don't care if he thinks that I voted for Trump or not, but I find it pretty despicable that liberals continue to use that to attack other Americans. Reeks of eliticism and ignores any real analysis into why people voted for Trump and why he continues to be one of the leaders of the 2024 republican field. Liberals seem to think that the "ism's" are the only reason to vote for Trump, when he was making a clear populist message that resonated with certain people. Is it possible that people are concerned about bad trade deals, open borders, gun rights, and abortion issues? I mean, liberals seem to think that being on the opposing side of those arguments is some racism/sexism issue. It's not.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?t=QPMet073Vgh5fcXIhg-w4w&s=19

[dckingsfan]

Sir, you openly spread misinformation in this very thread. So why would I care what you have to say when it comes to misinformation? Again, you liberals expose just how hypocritical you are on damn near every topic.

examples?

Sure. That guy claims that I voted for Trump, which I didn't. He couldn't provide any proof whatsoever that I did, but continued to say it over and over again in this thread. I don't care if he thinks that I voted for Trump or not, but I find it pretty despicable that liberals continue to use that to attack other Americans. Reeks of eliticism and ignores any real analysis into why people voted for Trump and why he continues to be one of the leaders of the 2024 republican field. Liberals seem to think that the "ism's" are the only reason to vote for Trump, when he was making a clear populist message that resonated with certain people. Is it possible that people are concerned about bad trade deals, open borders, gun rights, and abortion issues? I mean, liberals seem to think that being on the opposing side of those arguments is some racism/sexism issue. It's not.

So your example of my misinformation is that I have a high degree of confidence that you got ticked off when Bernie was ousted by Clinton and voted for Trump? And then you follow-up with this?

Strawman and laughable all at once, especially when you want to take a deep analysis into why Trump's message resonates. How about why does the Kremlin's disinformation still work and why do folks continue to get sucked in, that would be a much better question.

[TGW]

So your example of my misinformation is that I have a high degree of confidence that you got ticked off when Bernie was ousted by Clinton and voted for Trump? And then you follow-up with this?

LOL doubling down on your lies, huh? You are beyond pathetic. Just can't admit that you're a liar and you've been spreading misinformation. By the way, if I voted for Trump, I would say so. I could care less about some random idiot's opinion on a message board.

[pancakes3]

Democrats are absolutely clueless.
They think it's ok that the husband of the biggest hag in the US drives drunk
They preach gun control then release the "Merchant of death"
And they happily put the US into a recession

dummy

[Bonscott]

Democrats are absolutely clueless.
They think it's ok that the husband of the biggest hag in the US drives drunk
They preach gun control then release the "Merchant of death"
And they happily put the US into a recession

dummy

Truth hurts doesn't it Einstein

[dobrojim]

Democrats are absolutely clueless.
They think it's ok that the husband of the biggest hag in the US drives drunk
They preach gun control then release the "Merchant of death"
And they happily put the US into a recession

dummy

Truth hurts doesn't it Einstein

So how long before you think the GOP will win the popular vote in a national election?
Golfy McBonespurs is a proven loser, has never won more votes.
There's no one on the GOP bench that appears formidable.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/12/07/trump-2024-republican-alternatives-weak/

Put differently, the idea of a DeSantis candidacy might be more compelling than an actual DeSantis candidacy. Moreover, it is far from clear that the 44-year-old governor, who might have decades of political experience ahead of him, wants to spend a year or two as Trump’s punching bag when he might waltz through the 2028 primaries unruffled.

Rubin goes on to dismiss others like Youngkin, Pompeo and Haley.
Granted we are a long way from 2024 but what is the policy agenda
that they will run on that has a hope of inspiring Americans to their side.

Your truth will be arriving soon when the clown show in the House of Rep
begins in Jan. If it weren't for the damage to the country that will happen
if only by missed opportunity to accomplish anything, but it will be great comedy.
Or farse.

Dems were _highly- competent in the last 2 years. You probably envy that
as much as hate it.

To accuse dems of cluelessness while backing the party of MTG etal shows a
remarkable lack of self awareness. We've never in my lifetime had a more
clueless group in control of a major party than we have with the groups
running the house GOP now..

[dckingsfan]

So your example of my misinformation is that I have a high degree of confidence that you got ticked off when Bernie was ousted by Clinton and voted for Trump? And then you follow-up with this?

LOL doubling down on your lies, huh? You are beyond pathetic. Just can't admit that you're a liar and you've been spreading misinformation. By the way, if I voted for Trump, I would say so. I could care less about some random idiot's opinion on a message board.

My disinformation that you allege is that I think you got pissed off and voted for Trump and did everything you could to undermine the Ds. I'll stick with what I am saying. Now, show me more disinformation... ah, you won't.

And no, I don't think you would admit to it... instead I think you would double down on the both sides argument (which you have done). From your posts you see no difference between Trump and Biden always both siding the arguments.

... people are concerned about bad trade deals, open borders, gun rights, and abortion issues ...

The Democrats have become so cultish in their opposition of Trump, that they can't even admit that more border security is needed.

Actually both sides of this argument are raging hypocrites. Trump and Clinton supporters are a bunch of shameless partisan hacks, and their false idols are a detriment to America. Both factions can jump off a cliff for all I care.

[montestewart]

Wiz fans and others, please try not to fall into name-calling.

Just as an aside, I note that TGW’s posts, sometimes loud and acerbic, are nonetheless attempting to engage. Contrast that to Bon Scott, who periodically does a drive-by down our block and sprays the neighborhood with hackneyed and hyperbolic bullet points.

When someone takes the time to once again patiently rebut his points, he only responds with more of the same bullet points, with no actual engagement. His posts appear to be intended not to discuss, but merely to incite, inflame, provoke, and derail. I understand, that’s his style, but “owning the libs” here seems to be nothing more than getting you to waste your time.

I know, Bon Scott, I rocked out to Bon Scott, I saw Bon Scott, etc, etc.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

They took the Bon Scott video of this song off YouTube, apparently

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[pancakes3]

Democrats are absolutely clueless.
They think it's ok that the husband of the biggest hag in the US drives drunk
They preach gun control then release the "Merchant of death"
And they happily put the US into a recession

dummy

Truth hurts doesn't it Einstein

i mean these burns aren't really good at all. even at a facial level, a sitting republican senator from Idaho has DUIs on his record.

and on a deeper level, ad homs aside, if you can't parse through the absolutely incoherent policy actions and platforms of the republican party, with the only consistent throughline being held together by creating, perpetuating, and preying upon the darkest irrational fears of the most easily swayed, underinformed constituents, then you are the easily swayed, underinformed constituent - which in a word: dummy.

like, do you even understand what a recession means? or why it's bad? or reasons why it can be good, or at least necessary? doubtful.

for a party that ostensibly prides itself on accountability, toughness, and discipline, it seems like every time it comes to biting the bullet and making sacrifices, republicans are always the ones to weep openly about their discomfort. fox news has made it its entire mission statement to air grievances exclusively, even during the period where their preferred political party controlled all three branches. constant b*tching. it's unbecoming. it's embarrassing. constantly playing victims, as if democrats are able to "take away" your christmas like you're a child, or that immigrants who have disadvantages that are orders of magnitude greater than yours are able to "take away" your jobs. an entire political identity build around being a cornered animal with no agency, beset by boogeymen that are backed by dark money and shadowy forces that border on the omnipotent (shot) and the chaser being the inability to deal with the reality by crying foul about election integrity and the sort.

i reiterate - Trump just said that the constitution is BS. that's a big deal. it's not a big deal procedurally but it's an open, unambiguous assertion that there are no guiding principles in governing America, and the GOP perspective on the political process is entirely gamesmanship at all costs. kinda hard to foster bipartisanship and the American identity in the face of that. I have to roll my eyes whenever republicans say that the nation has become too divided, because, HEY DUMMY, YOU'RE THE ONES DOING IT.

republicans are gleefully ready to post lukewarm gotchas about Nancy Pelosi to own the libs, or whatever. Libs aren't advancing their policies (gun control, climate change, social welfare) to own the republicans, but because these are policy decisions that will have an impact on American lives, regardless of political affiliation. so how about pulling your head out of your @$$ and engage substantively? or not. who cares.

[Wizardspride]

Referring to Jan 6th...

Read on Twitter

?t=-XDBPqrG_Rk2D0DSLfSyPw&s=19

[dobrojim]

This ^ is what the GOP base likes and gets excited by...the idea of a violent overthrow of our democratic
Republic.

Getting back to self awareness, they sincerely believe they are patriots.
And they would have some interesting rationalizations about why if BLM had done 1/6 it
would (and should!) have been a bloodbath but now they're the target of DoJ prosecution.

Watch on YouTube

[montestewart]

Referring to Jan 6th...

Read on Twitter

?t=-XDBPqrG_Rk2D0DSLfSyPw&s=19

"We would have toppled the United States government like it was an old Confederate general statue...Wait, can we take that last part out? It sounds more patriotic without it."

Maybe someday, town squares across America will have statues of some disheveled dude with a handful of zip ties and a flagpole spear, commemorating the noble heroes of the Lost, Cause.

[doclinkin]

By the way, you old white liberals (including the one in office) had no problem incarcerating hundreds of thousands of black people over personal amounts of marijuana in order to look tough on crime.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/935341/us-support-for-legal-marijuana-since-2000-by-political-party/

Dems have generally been ahead on the issue, and those I know who call themselves Liberal have consistently been way ahead. The 'Moderate' Democrats though have not. Biden in particular has been notably behind the times. And while he says the right things in the White House, it's not like there has been a massive Federal push to decriminalize it and release prisoners whose sole 'crime' was weed. Proud of Maryland for joining the ranks of States who are doing it, even in this patchwork piece by piece way.

What you consider as "liberal", I call progressive. For example, Biden is liberal; Bernie is progressive. Manchin is a moderate. The spectrum in the US is totally skewed to a point where these terms are used interchangeably, when by worldly view, someone like Bernie is actually considered center left in most countries. Whatever...that's a whole 'nother topic.

Way I understand it, the primary difference between Liberals and Progressives is who pays for the social programs they both support. Liberals do it the traditional way: tax the people and spread the burden. Progressives say Corporations should pay their damn share and not have more power and more freedom than people. Not surprisingly it is a harder road for Progressives to get elected when they don't raise all the cash from corporations, lobbyists and moneyed interests. Liberals basically play the dirty game of politics in order to get reelected and try to stay in place where they can cut the right kind of deals. Moderates even more so, but they actively befriend the big money by trying to look like Republican Lite.

Biden was Moderate his whole career until national changes started pulling the whole power structure a little bit more Left. But that was barely a correction of the drift towards the Right that the elite powers had engineered since Reagan. For decades power brokers and image makers were able to convince Pols that the way to get the most voters was to show them they were nearly as Republican as the next guy while still remaining a Dem. Part of that was a smear campaign against the word Liberal itself. A majority of the American people support the policies of so-called Liberals, while throwing shxt on the name.

I'm happy we have dragged the Overton window a little bit more to the left. To where Bernie and Warren and Katie Porter and the Squad have relevance and force the Mods and Liberals to keep it honest. If a career politician like Biden has to bend to the will of the leftern side, then hey we get better laws passed. But yeah, politics is ugly and the compromises people make to stay in power eventually seem to degrade some of the principles that got them elected in the first place.

[Zonkerbl]

Man your city's basketball team sucks

[dckingsfan]

Way I understand it, the primary difference between Liberals and Progressives is who pays for the social programs they both support. Liberals do it the traditional way: tax the people and spread the burden. Progressives say Corporations should pay their damn share and not have more power and more freedom than people. Not surprisingly it is a harder road for Progressives to get elected when they don't raise all the cash from corporations, lobbyists and moneyed interests. Liberals basically play the dirty game of politics in order to get reelected and try to stay in place where they can cut the right kind of deals. Moderates even more so, but they actively befriend the big money by trying to look like Republican Lite.

Biden was Moderate his whole career until national changes started pulling the whole power structure a little bit more Left. But that was barely a correction of the drift towards the Right that the elite powers had engineered since Reagan. For decades power brokers and image makers were able to convince Pols that the way to get the most voters was to show them they were nearly as Republican as the next guy while still remaining a Dem. Part of that was a smear campaign against the word Liberal itself. A majority of the American people support the policies of so-called Liberals, while throwing shxt on the name.

I'm happy we have dragged the Overton window a little bit more to the left. To where Bernie and Warren and Katie Porter and the Squad have relevance and force the Mods and Liberals to keep it honest. If a career politician like Biden has to bend to the will of the leftern side, then hey we get better laws passed. But yeah, politics is ugly and the compromises people make to stay in power eventually seem to degrade some of the principles that got them elected in the first place.

Isn't it a continuum of what is wanted against what gets done? And how to do it without being bounced out of power and having those policies rolled back, not just how one raised money to get elected? And also the continuum of government action to personal freedom.

And isn't the R playbook to paint the left as socialists/communists? And I think you have to blend the (I would go back to Carter) rise of disinformation into the playbook both generated in the US but also abroad by both the elite but also by special interests both economic and politic? The disinformation sphere has become very good.

And historically, progressives go back to the early 1900s, remember prohibition? Not so good. But also remember women's suffrage.

And aren't there some third-rail politics at play here as well. Raising taxes seems to be one of those issues. Touch that rail and you are back out of power.

One last set of things. Are the progressives that voted for the most recent legislation now liberals since they compromised? And from the first paragraph, isn't this is why progressives "sometimes" get sidetracked by authoritarianism and keywords like "revolution"?

[dobrojim]

Not sure what to think of the big fusion announcement. It does sound like a significant
scientific and technical breakthrough but I can't see it being the revolutionary change
the folks at LLNL think it is, at least not in the next couple decades. No one knows
or is saying what it might cost to build a fusion plant or whether it would be
economically competitive with renewables. I would be more excited by an
announcement of a way to make batteries cheaper and better from more
widely available materials.

Fundamentally skeptical of power generation in huge centralized facilities.
That’s not how power is used so it doesn’t get us away from a major
limiting design flaw.

[Zonkerbl]

yeah from what I understand they've been incrementally getting closer to this net output goal and finally crossed it recently. It's not as momentous as they say, but also they've been saying fusion is "thirty years away" since the 80s and now that they've reached this milestone they've started saying it's 10 years away so that's progress I guess.

For power to work you need constant base generation and flexible peak load generation, currently coal and fission (and hydro) are filling the need for the former, would be great to replace the coal with fusion. Given the climate catastrophe we're facing it almost doesn't matter how much the fusion costs, or to say it differently it can be a lot more expensive than coal and still make economic sense (even if it doesn't make commercial sense). Would help if we had a carbon tax so coal's true cost to society is reflected in its associated electricity production charges.