Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

[gtn130]

I'd instantly trade Beal for Simmons and never look back, assuming Wall is also out of the picture.

[DCZards]

Yes, what a mistake Philly made acquiring talent instead of fit. I mean... what does that get you? 52 wins followed by 51 wins & R2 of the playoffs where you're down 3-2? What's that?

What's that especially compared to the "much better fit" of Wall & Beal. I mean... there was a year when we actually won 49 games -- what team has ever done that I wonder?

Well, if you’re discussing players of somewhat equal talent, such as Beal vs. Simmons, then you absolutely should take into account fit. Talent alone is not the be all and end all of successful teams. It’s not unusual for a good “team” to beat an opponent with superior “talent.”

[gtn130]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

[Ruzious]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

[DCZards]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

Rare and spectacular, yes, but still often a liability on the offensive end because of his terrible shooting. Don't believe me? Watch how useless Simmons is when Butler is the lead guard, as is often the case at crunch time.

[payitforward]

It is possilbe to focus on both fit AND talent....

If I understand you, then sure -- if you get to choose between 2 players of the same talent, why would you not pick the one with better fit? If you've judged right on both the variables, you do better.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a lot of cases, but they must exist.

...That's why Milwaukee is where they are. Philly has more talent than Milwaukee, imo....

Maybe if you took the best player off each team, & then looked at each of the remaining squads you might be right; or at least it might be close, which I don't think it is at full strength: Giannis is the best player in the league. He's better than anyone on Philly's team.

Plus, Bledsoe has had his best season ever. Brogdon has blossomed into a terrific player. Connaughton seems to be following suit, he's had a great year. Ditto Sterling Brown. Middleton has been really good. Hill & Snell (a surprise in his case) have combined for 2200 really good minutes. Milwaukee might be the deepest team in the league.

(edit: for that matter, they may be the best team in the league. It would not surprise me at all if they won the title)

I don't know... maybe it's coaching too: they have guys who've played just a few minutes & been productive in those minutes.

...Philly will need to make a decision on Redick. He's a 34/35 year old free agent. If they don't keep him, they'll NEED to acquire a top 3 point shooting threat, or they will regress.

For sure! Ditto if Butler doesn't re-sign. They are paying the price for blowing tip-top picks in both the 2015 & 2017 drafts.

[payitforward]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

Rare and spectacular, yes, but still often a liability on the offensive end because of his terrible shooting. Don't believe me? Watch how useless Simmons is when Butler is the lead guard, as is often the case at crunch time.

Hey, nobody's perfect!

C'mon Zards, face it -- you are a certified Bradley Beal fan boy! I imagine you'd be quite objective in comparing any two players as long as Brad wasn't one of them.

Not a sin to be a fan.... & Brad is not only a terrific player but he also seems to be an admirable young man.

[Ruzious]

It is possilbe to focus on both fit AND talent....

If I understand you, then sure -- if you get to choose between 2 players of the same talent, why would you not pick the one with better fit? If you've judged right on both the variables, you do better.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a lot of cases, but they must exist.

...That's why Milwaukee is where they are. Philly has more talent than Milwaukee, imo....

Maybe if you took the best player off each team, & then looked at each of the remaining squads you might be right; or at least it might be close, which I don't think it is at full strength: Giannis is the best player in the league. He's better than anyone on Philly's team.

Plus, Bledsoe has had his best season ever. Brogdon has blossomed into a terrific player. Connaughton seems to be following suit, he's had a great year. Ditto Sterling Brown. Middleton has been really good. Hill & Snell (a surprise in his case) have combined for 2200 really good minutes. Milwaukee might be the deepest team in the league.

(edit: for that matter, they may be the best team in the league. It would not surprise me at all if they won the title)

I don't know... maybe it's coaching too: they have guys who've played just a few minutes & been productive in those minutes.

...Philly will need to make a decision on Redick. He's a 34/35 year old free agent. If they don't keep him, they'll NEED to acquire a top 3 point shooting threat, or they will regress.

For sure! Ditto if Butler doesn't re-sign. They are paying the price for blowing tip-top picks in both the 2015 & 2017 drafts.

Those players blossomed because Budenholzer understood the importance of adding shooters to spread the floor - and yes, it is that simple.

[Ruzious]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

Rare and spectacular, yes, but still often a liability on the offensive end because of his terrible shooting. Don't believe me? Watch how useless Simmons is when Butler is the lead guard, as is often the case at crunch time.

That's why it's vital to have players who fit - not just to accumulate talent without regard to fit.

[DCZards]

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

Rare and spectacular, yes, but still often a liability on the offensive end because of his terrible shooting. Don't believe me? Watch how useless Simmons is when Butler is the lead guard, as is often the case at crunch time.

Hey, nobody's perfect!

C'mon Zards, face it -- you are a certified Bradley Beal fan boy! I imagine you'd be quite objective in comparing any two players as long as Brad wasn't one of them.

Not a sin to be a fan.... & Brad is not only a terrific player but he also seems to be an admirable young man.

Yup...I plead guilty to being in the tank for BB .

But my comment above has nothing to do with Beal and everything to do with Simmons. While it's fine to point out how good Ben is, we shouldn't overlook his flaws...and his shooting is a glaring weakness.

[payitforward]

Off Topic

Nobody's perfect
We've all done something wrong

No day lasts forever
But some of them are long

Nobody's perfect
But somewhere someone's strong

Honey, tho I wear boxer shorts
I love you in a thong

(for doc who always asks; ruz who knows; zards who cares; nate who concentrates; dat who wants it bad; & for all my compadres here, including & especially those who give me the hard time I deserve)

[Ruzious]

Off Topic

Nobody's perfect
We've all done something wrong

No day lasts forever
But some of them are long

Nobody's perfect
But somewhere someone's strong

Honey, tho I wear boxer shorts
I love you in a thong

(for doc who always asks; ruz who knows; zards who cares; nate who concentrates; dat who wants it bad; & for all my compadres here, including & especially those who give me the hard time I deserve)

Hey, that's my job, and I love it.

[Illmatic12]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

Age doesn’t guarantee improvement . That is a risky assumption to make.

What has Simmons added to his game since he was at LSU? What about him makes you think that he has the work ethic and focus to continue to improve his game?

Simmons has rare natural talent yes, so did Lamar Odom. But he is choosing to coast on that talent , as a result Ben Simmons is not a rare player nor will he have any real place in history at the end of his career. I don’t see him significantly improving from what he is now - which is a playoff liability who is ineffective on offense outside of 5ft, a liability at the foul line, and shoots with the wrong hand.

[80sballboy]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

Age doesn’t guarantee improvement . That is a risky assumption to make.

What has Simmons added to his game since he was at LSU? What about him makes you think that he has the work ethic and focus to continue to improve his game?

Simmons has rare natural talent yes, so did Lamar Odom. But he is choosing to coast on that talent , as a result Ben Simmons is not a rare player nor will he have any real place in history at the end of his career. I don’t see him significantly improving from what he is now - which is a playoff liability who is ineffective on offense outside of 5ft, a liability at the foul line, and shoots with the wrong hand.

Simmons is a rare talent because of his ability to handle the ball at that size and his defense puts him in that rare air. Maybe he is playing out of position and should be a point forward/center, assuming he learns a post game. Maybe he needs a better coach. But you can't leave out the fact that he can really guard. Obviously for him to become a superstar, he'll need a jumper.

[gtn130]

I don't see how anyone can argue Beal and Simmons are equal talent. Simmons is a far better talent, and every metric supports that, along with him being only 22 and in his second pro season while being in a role that isn't at all optimized for his talent.

He's roughly 6'11 and 240 and plays PG on a very high level... at 22. He's grown since he was the #1 pick in the 2016 draft. I don't think people are getting how rare and spectacular a talent he is.

Age doesn’t guarantee improvement . That is a risky assumption to make.

What has Simmons added to his game since he was at LSU? What about him makes you think that he has the work ethic and focus to continue to improve his game?

Simmons has rare natural talent yes, so did Lamar Odom. But he is choosing to coast on that talent , as a result Ben Simmons is not a rare player nor will he have any real place in history at the end of his career. I don’t see him significantly improving from what he is now - which is a playoff liability who is ineffective on offense outside of 5ft, a liability at the foul line, and shoots with the wrong hand.

Name the players who didn't improve after age 22. It's not a remotely risky assumption to say that Simmons will continue improving.

I would say that there are some guys who are more polished and won't improve as much as others, but they're the outliers. Guys like Jason Tatum who came into the league with a polished, well-rounded game won't make the same leaps as someone who is more raw, but again, he's an outlier. Most guys have a lot they can work on.

The funny thing is Beal's best season came in year seven, and you want to talk about Simmons not improving beyond who he is now at age 22 and two seasons into his career. Good luck arguing that.

Also I don't think Simmons would be a liability at all if he didn't have to play off ball so much. He's Giannis Light, and if the roster around him is optimized for that role, he's an MVP candidate.

[payitforward]

Well done, 80sballboy & gtn130. But, really...it's not worth taking this further. Just for starters, as fantastic as he was last year Ben Simmons already improved pretty much across the board this year.

Points per 40 minutes went up, defensive rebounds ditto, offensive rebounds ditto, FG% ditto, FT% ditto. # of times he got to the line ditto.

Steals & assists dropped slightly, but overall he made a significant jump.

If you don't want to see how great this kid is, don't. But, it's just arbitrary to do it.

[Dat2U]

I take Ben Simmons in a heartbeat over Beal. He's still really young. He's under team control through his next deal which is hopefully a 5 year max which would still be significantly cheaper than a supermax that Beal could get.

Simmons absolutely needs an ability to score outside of dunks, layups, runners/floaters & hook shots. However I believe if you surround him with 4 shooters, he's dynamic playmaker with the ball in his hands. He's Magic 2.0 if he ever gets a passable jumper. To me, it's not his position that matters as long as he's surrounded by the right guys.

[80sballboy]

I take Ben Simmons in a heartbeat over Beal. He's still really young. He's under team control through his next deal which is hopefully a 5 year max which would still be significantly cheaper than a supermax that Beal could get.

Simmons absolutely needs an ability to score outside of dunks, layups, runners/floaters & hook shots. However I believe if you surround him with 4 shooters, he's dynamic playmaker with the ball in his hands. He's Magic 2.0 if he ever gets a passable jumper. To me, it's not his position that matters as long as he's surrounded by the right guys.

I hate to compare anybody to Magic, because he was the best pure basketball player (on offense) I ever saw with the best IQ. Every big point guard from Steve Smith and on has been compared to Magic. However, he wasn't much of a shooter to start off and become a competent one with his ugly set shot as he got older. He was also a terrible three-point shooter until late in his career though the shot wasn't a huge deal in the 80s.

Funny how Magic was considered a poor defender because Byron Scott and Michael Cooper took the tougher scorers. But the dude averaged around 2.6 steals per game in his first five years as a pro. So he did know how to play the passing lanes and use his length against smaller guards.

[dckingsfan]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

[pcbothwel]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

Maybe, but I dont think I do it.
I really love Beal. We are rebuilding our team, and more importantly, our culture.
You can see it when they interview guys like Bryant and Brown. Beal is THE LEADER of this team and sets the tone with his work ethic and lunch pale personality.
We really need that guy to set the tone moving forward.
There are REAL concerns about Simmons work ethic and I worry him stepping back into a rebuilding environment may not work out that well for either party.
Now, I am assuming Beal does not get the Super Max...so that may change my final decision.