Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

[Dat2U]

Well give them Lopez. And we'll take that horrible Wiggins contract.

But we want Wiseman + the two 1st round picks (theirs & Twolves).

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7381952

Two picks & Wiseman seems really light. Teams are getting 3-4 picks, picks swaps and prospects for their franchise guys that are forcing their way out.

You can't just gloss over the fact that one of those picks is a high lotto pick from Minnesota. And Wiseman was the #2 pick in the draft.

Two high lotto picks is better than 4 or 5 picks in the 20's.

Those picks rn would be late lottery. And obviously trading Beal might push GS out of the lottery. Is that all it takes? A late lottery, mid 1st and young rim runner? Was Mitchell Robinson not available? I think teams around league would by lining up to make an offer if that's really all it took.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Two picks & Wiseman seems really light. Teams are getting 3-4 picks, picks swaps and prospects for their franchise guys that are forcing their way out.

You can't just gloss over the fact that one of those picks is a high lotto pick from Minnesota. And Wiseman was the #2 pick in the draft.

Two high lotto picks is better than 4 or 5 picks in the 20's.

Those picks rn would be late lottery. And obviously trading Beal might push GS out of the lottery. Is that all it takes? A late lottery, mid 1st and young rim runner? Was Mitchell Robinson not available? I think teams around league would by lining up to make an offer if that's really all it took.

Yeah it's tricky looking at it. That one guy saying it's way too much, but you got a point too Dat, Minnesota right now is projected at top 3 pick, in which they would keep it. That would really throw a wrench in this. If the pick comes in at 4 or 5 then we got something.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Well give them Lopez. And we'll take that horrible Wiggins contract.

But we want Wiseman + the two 1st round picks (theirs & Twolves).

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7381952

I mean, I understand why you like this deal, but it is just an abominable deal for Golden St.

Wizards could possibly add Bertans to the mix, if they're going full rebuild anyway...
We know GS values 3pt shooting. Bertans and Steph together, with Beal??


https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7382143

[payitforward]

It strikes me that conversation about trades of this kind is a little bit pointless -- or, better, impractical. We are watching the results of having essentially no government for 4 years play themselves out on the NBA as the 2d wave of Covid hits.

I doubt there'll be much player movement -- maybe a relatively minor move or two, maybe none at all -- over the next couple of months, & it seems a strong possibility that the season will be cancelled altogether or else so curtailed & constrained as to be little more than a way for teams to make sure they get their TV payments.

Of course, it's no less interesting than ever to discuss questions of player value -- who's worth what to whom & why. But I'm pretty sure the overwhelming focus of NBA FOs right now is simply how to survive.

What we might see -- & would be interesting -- is a substantial expansion of rosters.

[nate33]

It strikes me that conversation about trades of this kind is a little bit pointless -- or, better, impractical. We are watching the results of having essentially no government for 4 years play themselves out on the NBA as the 2d wave of Covid hits.

Spare me. With the exception of Germany, the impact of Covid on the United States is about the same as every other western nation of similar population density and climate. We are no different than Spain, France, Belgium, Italy, England, Ireland, Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Sweden or Switzerland. Do they all have "essentially no government"? 2nd waves are happening everywhere. They're even worse in much of Europe. (Very cold climates seem to fare better: Russia, Canada, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, though that may just be the low population density.)

[SA37]

I mean, I understand why you like this deal, but it is just an abominable deal for Golden St.

Well I do think based this is a fair market deal, at least as a foundation. There could be tweaks to it or a sweetener to get it done.

Maybe the Wizards include Troy Brown Jr & 2021 2nd rounder (which will be high in the round) in their package.

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7381956

The problem isn't if that is/isn't fair value for Beal; the problem is 1) Beal doesn't fill a need for Golden St 2) Golden St's already precarious frontcourt gets even more depleted 3) if there weren't any protections on the picks, Golden St could potentially trade away two #1 picks (yes, the chances of this are remote, but...) 4) this trade doesn't change the fact that Golden St is not going to be a contender for the title this year.

The Warriors have everything to gain by waiting to see how Wiseman progresses and where these picks end up landing, as there is a solid chance both Golden St and Minnesota will miss the playoffs this year. Plus, if Minnesota's pick doesn't convey, Minnesota will likely be a lottery team again next year.

[nate33]

Two picks & Wiseman seems really light. Teams are getting 3-4 picks, picks swaps and prospects for their franchise guys that are forcing their way out.

You can't just gloss over the fact that one of those picks is a high lotto pick from Minnesota. And Wiseman was the #2 pick in the draft.

Two high lotto picks is better than 4 or 5 picks in the 20's.

Those picks rn would be late lottery. And obviously trading Beal might push GS out of the lottery. Is that all it takes? A late lottery, mid 1st and young rim runner? Was Mitchell Robinson not available? I think teams around league would by lining up to make an offer if that's really all it took.

That Minnesota pick is likely in the mid lottery.

We can ask for more, that's fine. But 2 lotto picks beats 4 picks in the 20's.

[SA37]

It strikes me that conversation about trades of this kind is a little bit pointless -- or, better, impractical. We are watching the results of having essentially no government for 4 years play themselves out on the NBA as the 2d wave of Covid hits.

Spare me. With the exception of Germany, the impact of Covid on the United States is about the same as every other western nation of similar population density and climate. We are no different than Spain, France, Belgium, Italy, England, Ireland, Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Sweden or Switzerland. Do they all have "essentially no government"? 2nd waves are happening everywhere. They're even worse in much of Europe. (Very cold climates seem to fare better: Russia, Canada, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, though that may just be the low population density.)

If you consider Western Europe a single country, they are probably equally as bad.

Spain and Italy have ~80-85k deaths each, England has just over 100K, France has around 70k, I believe...that's well over 300k deaths and doesn't include Germany, Portugal, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland...etc.

That said, many of these countries put in place financial measures and have much better social safety nets to help people get through the pandemic. It's by no means perfect, but the US government has basically abandonded people. I haven't read through the details of what Biden is proposing, but it will likely be too little, too late for a lot of people.

[SA37]

It strikes me that conversation about trades of this kind is a little bit pointless -- or, better, impractical. We are watching the results of having essentially no government for 4 years play themselves out on the NBA as the 2d wave of Covid hits.

I doubt there'll be much player movement -- maybe a relatively minor move or two, maybe none at all -- over the next couple of months, & it seems a strong possibility that the season will be cancelled altogether or else so curtailed & constrained as to be little more than a way for teams to make sure they get their TV payments.

Of course, it's no less interesting than ever to discuss questions of player value -- who's worth what to whom & why. But I'm pretty sure the overwhelming focus of NBA FOs right now is simply how to survive.

What we might see -- & would be interesting -- is a substantial expansion of rosters.

I don't think the season will be canceled. At worst the NBA would have to postpone the season a few weeks, but they have more or less built this into the season by doing it in two halves. The NBA probably considered there would be a good chance they could postpone the season 2-3 weeks and in that time frame be able to vaccinate the players and essential team staff (probably about 500 people per team) and be able to get through the 2nd half of the season without issues.

I mean, if they are not canceling it now with 4k people dying per day and ~250k infections per day....

[DCZards]

Even if Golden St still has every intention of trying to put together a championship team around Curry, Thompson, and Green, their front office should be very aware that this may be the end of the road and they need to be thinking about what comes next. Dumping every single asset (Wiseman, the Minny pick, and whatever other picks) that would help them prepare for life after Curry and Thompson into a trade for Bradley Beal is about as desperate and as irresponsible of a decision as they could make (especially given they'll already lose their 1st rd pick in 2024 or 2025 to Memphis) given the makeup of their roster.

Totally agree with this. The Warriors have won 3 NBA championships in the last 6 years so I don’t think they are as desperate to win another one as some here seem to suggest.

It’s also pretty obvious that the Warriors (and most others in and around the NBA) have a higher regard for Wiseman and his potential to someday be a top NBA player than many on this board do.

I don’t see GSW mortgaging the future for Beal. I expect them to hang on to Wiseman and those picks...and look forward to having a nice core of young and veteran players when Klay returns.

[Dat2U]

Even if Golden St still has every intention of trying to put together a championship team around Curry, Thompson, and Green, their front office should be very aware that this may be the end of the road and they need to be thinking about what comes next. Dumping every single asset (Wiseman, the Minny pick, and whatever other picks) that would help them prepare for life after Curry and Thompson into a trade for Bradley Beal is about as desperate and as irresponsible of a decision as they could make (especially given they'll already lose their 1st rd pick in 2024 or 2025 to Memphis) given the makeup of their roster.

Totally agree with this. The Warriors have won 3 NBA championships in the last 6 years so I don’t think they are as desperate to win another one as some here seem to suggest.

It’s also pretty obvious that the Warriors (and most others in and around the NBA) have a higher regard for Wiseman and his potential to someday be a top NBA player than many on this board do.

I don’t see GSW mortgaging the future for Beal. I expect them to hang on to Wiseman and those picks...and look forward to having a nice core of young and veteran players when Klay returns.

Don't get me wrong, I do not dislike Wiseman as a prospect. He seems to have a solid floor. But when hear he's someone that the Warriors envision Curry handing the franchise over to or the Hornets wishing they had somehow traded up for him instead of drafting Ball despite Ball arguably playing better, I really get confused because I'm wonder if we're all looking at the same player.

I see more Andre Drummond than Joel Embiid. Seems to me even DeAndre Ayton was a better prospect coming out.

[Dat2U]

Read on Twitter

Short term the Warriors would be better off trading Wiseman and finding a vet C. Rookie bigs generally aren't impactful. These numbers aren't to knock Wiseman just dispel the notion that he's doing something incredible or that he's absolutely vital to their immediate goals. He's a rim runner with 3pt potential. My long term concerns with him prior to the draft was his ability to quarterback a defense or defend in space. I thought he was alot like Mitchell Robinson with the main difference being Wiseman had face up potential and the ability to step out. Like Robinson he's an elite shot blocker but struggles with concepts and where to be. Doesn't process things instantly on D, a step slow.

Offensively the makings of a face up game are there but its not polished or smooth and you probably don't want him taking more than one dribble. He has flashed some range but no one would call this an elite skill.

So when a big has elite physical tools but doesn't have elite skills offensively and isn't an instictive or highly active defender it makes me question what the true upside is? If he's not a game changing defender then he needs to have some elite offensive skill. If not, he's basically a replaceable rim runner.

[nate33]

Short term the Warriors would be better off trading Wiseman and finding a vet C. Rookie bigs generally aren't impactful. These numbers aren't to knock Wiseman just dispel the notion that he's doing something incredible or that he's absolutely vital to their immediate goals. He's a rim runner with 3pt potential. My long term concerns with him prior to the draft was his ability to quarterback a defense or defend in space. I thought he was alot like Mitchell Robinson with the main difference being Wiseman had face up potential and the ability to step out. Like Robinson he's an elite shot blocker but struggles with concepts and where to be. Doesn't process things instantly on D, a step slow.

Offensively the makings of a face up game are there but its not polished or smooth and you probably don't want him taking more than one dribble. He has flashed some range but no one would call this an elite skill.

So when a big has elite physical tools but doesn't have elite skills offensively and isn't an instictive or highly active defender it makes me question what the true upside is? If he's not a game changing defender then he needs to have some elite offensive skill. If not, he's basically a replaceable rim runner.

These are all valid concerns. To what extent can we overlook his poor feel for the game given that he is 19 years old and only played 3 games of college?

[NatP4]

What’s the argument for Wiseman over Porter Jr? Porter Jr jd actually a good player. There is no evidence Wiseman will be anything more than an average player. Porter Kr is averaging 56% from the field and 40% plus from 3. For me it’s a no brained assuming we have to trade Brad.

Is this argument? If so, I’m not sure why. Porter Jr is the A level asset we haven’t talked about nearly enough.

The trade would obviously have to include Gary Harris for salary reasons, but if could steal Monte Morris and Bol Bol+DEN 2021 1st, that would be such a home run. No way Denver would move all of that though.

[DCZards]

Short term the Warriors would be better off trading Wiseman and finding a vet C. Rookie bigs generally aren't impactful. These numbers aren't to knock Wiseman just dispel the notion that he's doing something incredible or that he's absolutely vital to their immediate goals. He's a rim runner with 3pt potential. My long term concerns with him prior to the draft was his ability to quarterback a defense or defend in space. I thought he was alot like Mitchell Robinson with the main difference being Wiseman had face up potential and the ability to step out. Like Robinson he's an elite shot blocker but struggles with concepts and where to be. Doesn't process things instantly on D, a step slow.

Offensively the makings of a face up game are there but its not polished or smooth and you probably don't want him taking more than one dribble. He has flashed some range but no one would call this an elite skill.

So when a big has elite physical tools but doesn't have elite skills offensively and isn't an instictive or highly active defender it makes me question what the true upside is? If he's not a game changing defender then he needs to have some elite offensive skill. If not, he's basically a replaceable rim runner.

Almost all of these concerns are consistent with Wiseman being a 19 year old with effectively no college experience.

The real questions are: Does he have a good work ethic, is he coachable, and is he a willing and capable learner? Because the kid has a solid skillset that I'd expect to develop and improve with experience...and his physical tools are off-the charts.

[NatP4]

That’s not really the question though. The questions are more like: does he have good hands? Is he physical? Does he have a motor? Does he have good understanding of defensive schemes/concepts? Does he have a good understanding of offensive spacing and good shots vs bad shots? Does he have good vision/natural playmaking ability? Does he have the “it” factor or competitiveness? Does he play unselfishly for the win or for personal success?

You can read as many articles or watch YouTube highlight videos, but that doesn’t compare to watching actual full games. The Warriors play basically every single game on National TV. Wiseman has serious shortcomings. He is borderline unplayable. There is a reason that non casual Warrior fans are already debating bust/no bust.

Yes he’s 19, he didn’t play college basketball because he was suspended. How many players develop feel for the game in college basketball? How many unplayable rookies with massively negative on/off numbers, go on to be “stars”

Marvin Bagley, Mo Bamba, Jaxson Hayes, Marquess Chris all had the physical tools. None of them are NBA players.

[DCZards]

This is what some non-casual Wizards fans were saying about Bradley Beal in Nov. 2012, about a month into his NBA career. It’s why I put little or no stock into what fans on a team message board are saying about a player, particularly a young one like Wiseman.

"Although I don't post on here often, I believe I was one of the first banging the drum that Beal just isn't very good. He reminds me of Jarvis Hayes. Beautiful-looking stroke that goes in less than 40% of the time. That's horrid. Also, Beal is an AWFUL finisher. I don't think he has finished a layup in traffic all season. Also, can he even dunk? He just does not have the athleticism to succeed on either end of the floor. Drafting Beal was a big time swing and miss. Almost as bad as Vesely. But then again, almost nothing compares to wasting the #6 pick on him."

"I never like undersized players unless they are either a freak athlete or they do one thing amazingly well. Beal is neither. We woulda been better off with Harrison Barnes. I think he has trouble getting his shot off against bigger players. Hes a classic tweaner and thats what I was afraid of. He's Randy Foye basically."

"The worries I had about Beal are proving to be true. Doesn't have great athleticism, lacks the handles to breakdown his defender off the dribble, and his shot has been worse than advertised (much like it was in college). I don't see star potential."

Nate, you know I love you and we agree on most things basketball-related things, but this is what you said about Beal on Nov. 24, 2012. I only use it to illustrate my concerns about people jumping to conclusions about 19 year olds.

"I'm extremely disappointed in Beal. I've finally come to the conclusion that players really don't improve all that much once they get into the league, particularly guards. If they're not pretty good right away, it's unlikely that they'll ever become good. Right now, Beal's ORtg is 92 and he has shown no above average skill. That's embarassing. While I'm sure it'll get better, I'm losing faith that there will be a dramatic transformation. WYSIWYG. Beal is a mediocre player at best. We are no longer talking Ray Allen, Eric Gordon, or a shorter James Harden. I'm thinking his upside is more like Randy Foye, Bobby Phils or Hubert Davis. Basically, a below average starter or a bench player. Yay. Another bench player."

BTW, this it what I wrote about Beal on Nov. 27, 2012.

"Give it time. The kid is smart and he'll figure it out. Beal's biggest problem right now is that he's playing with a bunch of scrubs and, as a result, is being asked to do far more than a 19 year old rookie should be called upon to do. On top of that, defenses can focus on Beal because none of teammates are capable of scoring (or creating open shots for others) with any consistency.

I also expect Beal to get bigger and stronger. Again, he's just 19 years old...with less than a month of NBA experience under his belt."

[nate33]

Nate, you know I love you and we agree on most things basketball-related things, but this is what you said about Beal on Nov. 24, 2012. I only use it to illustrate my concerns about people jumping to conclusions about 19 year olds.

"I'm extremely disappointed in Beal. I've finally come to the conclusion that players really don't improve all that much once they get into the league, particularly guards. If they're not pretty good right away, it's unlikely that they'll ever become good. Right now, Beal's ORtg is 92 and he has shown no above average skill. That's embarassing. While I'm sure it'll get better, I'm losing faith that there will be a dramatic transformation. WYSIWYG. Beal is a mediocre player at best. We are no longer talking Ray Allen, Eric Gordon, or a shorter James Harden. I'm thinking his upside is more like Randy Foye, Bobby Phils or Hubert Davis. Basically, a below average starter or a bench player. Yay. Another bench player."

BTW, this it what I wrote about Beal on Nov. 27, 2012.

"Give it time. The kid is smart and he'll figure it out. Beal's biggest problem right now is that he's playing with a bunch of scrubs and, as a result, is being asked to do far more than a 19 year old rookie should be called upon to do. On top of that, defenses can focus on Beal because none of teammates are capable of scoring (or creating open shots for others) with any consistency.

I also expect Beal to get bigger and stronger. Again, he's just 19 years old...with less than a month of NBA experience under his belt."

In my defense, that was after a really bad stretch of play from Beal and the team. Sometimes even I succumb to negative emotions. A month later I said this:

I don't have a problem with Beal's mentality overall. He's a smart player, a hard worker, he tries to operate within the offense, he plays defense, he moves the ball, and he rebounds. I like everything about his game except for the fact that he is shooting 26% from 3-point range. If he was hitting 38% from 3-point range, I'd be completely happy with his production. He would be averaging 16 points, 4.3 boards and 3.0 assists with a TS% of .511. That's not great, but it's pretty good for a 19 year old rookie who has yet to learn all the tricks.

Unfortunately, because of his awful 3-point shooting, his TS% is an atrocious .458. Only 3 rookie wing players in modern history (since 79) have posted a lower TS% while averaging at least 14 shots a game and 20 minutes a game. (Ironically, one of them is Jordan Crawford. The others are Mahmoud Abdul Rauf and Rex Chapman.)

Beal really had a really unusual rookie year. He was AWFUL during his first 2 months. Not because his overall play was bad, but because he couldn't hit the side of a barn when he shot a jumper. Through 2 months, he was literally the worst shooter of all time among players averaging 5 3PA's or more. And then in the second half of the season, he has his best 3P shooting run of his entire career. From January 1st through the end of his rookie season, he shot a whopping 48.4% from 3-point range! He has never even approached that kind of accuracy for any extended stretch over the rest of his entire career.

[SA37]

This is what some non-casual Wizards fans were saying about Bradley Beal in Nov. 2012, about a month into his NBA career. It’s why I put little or no stock into what fans on a team message board are saying about a player, particularly a young one like Wiseman.

"Although I don't post on here often, I believe I was one of the first banging the drum that Beal just isn't very good. He reminds me of Jarvis Hayes. Beautiful-looking stroke that goes in less than 40% of the time. That's horrid. Also, Beal is an AWFUL finisher. I don't think he has finished a layup in traffic all season. Also, can he even dunk? He just does not have the athleticism to succeed on either end of the floor. Drafting Beal was a big time swing and miss. Almost as bad as Vesely. But then again, almost nothing compares to wasting the #6 pick on him."

"I never like undersized players unless they are either a freak athlete or they do one thing amazingly well. Beal is neither. We woulda been better off with Harrison Barnes. I think he has trouble getting his shot off against bigger players. Hes a classic tweaner and thats what I was afraid of. He's Randy Foye basically."

"The worries I had about Beal are proving to be true. Doesn't have great athleticism, lacks the handles to breakdown his defender off the dribble, and his shot has been worse than advertised (much like it was in college). I don't see star potential."

Nate, you know I love you and we agree on most things basketball-related things, but this is what you said about Beal on Nov. 24, 2012. I only use it to illustrate my concerns about people jumping to conclusions about 19 year olds.

"I'm extremely disappointed in Beal. I've finally come to the conclusion that players really don't improve all that much once they get into the league, particularly guards. If they're not pretty good right away, it's unlikely that they'll ever become good. Right now, Beal's ORtg is 92 and he has shown no above average skill. That's embarassing. While I'm sure it'll get better, I'm losing faith that there will be a dramatic transformation. WYSIWYG. Beal is a mediocre player at best. We are no longer talking Ray Allen, Eric Gordon, or a shorter James Harden. I'm thinking his upside is more like Randy Foye, Bobby Phils or Hubert Davis. Basically, a below average starter or a bench player. Yay. Another bench player."

BTW, this it what I wrote about Beal on Nov. 27, 2012.

"Give it time. The kid is smart and he'll figure it out. Beal's biggest problem right now is that he's playing with a bunch of scrubs and, as a result, is being asked to do far more than a 19 year old rookie should be called upon to do. On top of that, defenses can focus on Beal because none of teammates are capable of scoring (or creating open shots for others) with any consistency.

I also expect Beal to get bigger and stronger. Again, he's just 19 years old...with less than a month of NBA experience under his belt."

Wow...you are holding folks accountable....

[Dat2U]

Even if Golden St still has every intention of trying to put together a championship team around Curry, Thompson, and Green, their front office should be very aware that this may be the end of the road and they need to be thinking about what comes next. Dumping every single asset (Wiseman, the Minny pick, and whatever other picks) that would help them prepare for life after Curry and Thompson into a trade for Bradley Beal is about as desperate and as irresponsible of a decision as they could make (especially given they'll already lose their 1st rd pick in 2024 or 2025 to Memphis) given the makeup of their roster.

Totally agree with this. The Warriors have won 3 NBA championships in the last 6 years so I don’t think they are as desperate to win another one as some here seem to suggest.

It’s also pretty obvious that the Warriors (and most others in and around the NBA) have a higher regard for Wiseman and his potential to someday be a top NBA player than many on this board do.

I don’t see GSW mortgaging the future for Beal. I expect them to hang on to Wiseman and those picks...and look forward to having a nice core of young and veteran players when Klay returns.

Bruh i gotta call bs because you damn well know you've taken the positive outlook on nearly every csingle player since you've been on this board. We can find optimism & you preaching patience on posts for Pecherov, Vesely, Singleton all the way up through the years to Schofield and Robinson. Congrats on getting one right lol

Most young guys stinking up the joint don’t become stars though.