Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[BigA]

Read on Twitter

I think the US budget deficit is tradable. Maybe we could get expirings and a couple 2nd round picks.

[nate33]

I feel like the jazz are going to hit that moment of, ok we have this super great young big man and they have to make a move or don't. I feel like making a move for a wall like guy would be a good move for them.

Wishful thinking. Utah is NOT going to trade for Wall. He's just not the right fit. They want the ball in Mitchell's hands.

Utah has a rock-solid core of Gobert and Mitchell, and they have a couple of quality starters locked on good deals in Ingles and Rubio. They also have a long history of drafting well. If they do anything, it'll probably be to trade Favors for another good forward. Indeed, if there's a trade between Washington and Utah to be made, it would probably be oriented around a Favors for Porter swap.

Also i don't really want to tank. Wall is not going to get a bunch of picks, look what jimmy butler went for. We would get two young players and a 1 year deal, and all the cap relief in the world. that's about what wall with his contract is worth.

Wall may not be worth a high pick. I dunno. But even if we got your package out of Utah, I'd flip Rubio to a 3rd team for a pick and a bad contract. The goal is to lose for the rest of this year. If Wall is unloaded, this team absolutely does need to tank, at least for one year. I like Beal, but the team isn't going anywhere if Beal is the best player.

[dckingsfan]

↑↑↑↑↑

Yes, SA doesn't do the deal... but they might be interested in two high IQ players.

And no, the Kings wouldn't be giving up any picks. This allows us to move Mahimni, Porter and Sato and save lots of $$s. And might actually make us better for this year (as Sato and Porter are clearly out of favor). This is a straight salary dump to open up the possibilities for next year.

I'm no where near the point of a straight salary dump for a 25 yr old above average SF who's struggling at the moment.

If I can't get a quality asset for Porter then why deal him to simply get him off the roster? So we can save money that we'll inevitably spend poorly elsewhere? Easy pass for me.

Because he will never fit into this unit with Brooks as the coach and we would get a salary dump of Mahimni without using our pick.

If you could dump Wall/Brooks instead - that would be better, but that isn't going to happen.

Again, this allows us to move Mahimni (no luxury tax) and Sato and Porter who will always be in Brooks' doghouse - without losing our first round pick.

And it is compassionate to Porter ...

[nate33]

↑↑↑↑↑

Yes, SA doesn't do the deal... but they might be interested in two high IQ players.

And no, the Kings wouldn't be giving up any picks. This allows us to move Mahimni, Porter and Sato and save lots of $$s. And might actually make us better for this year (as Sato and Porter are clearly out of favor). This is a straight salary dump to open up the possibilities for next year.

I'm no where near the point of a straight salary dump for a 25 yr old above average SF who's struggling at the moment.

If I can't get a quality asset for Porter then why deal him to simply get him off the roster? So we can save money that we'll inevitably spend poorly elsewhere? Easy pass for me.

Because he will never fit into this unit with Brooks as the coach and we would get a salary dump of Mahimni without using our pick.

If you could dump Wall/Brooks instead - that would be better, but that isn't going to happen.

Again, this allows us to move Mahimni (no luxury tax) and Sato and Porter who will always be in Brooks' doghouse - without losing our first round pick.

And it is compassionate to Porter ...

I gotta admit, it's a clever trade idea. It completely resolves our cap problems and saves Ted over $25M immediately factoring the luxtax. I'd tweak it so that Jason Smith is sent out in place of Sato. That would make it: Porter + Mahinmi + Smith for Randolph, Shumpert, Koufos and McLemore.

Next year, the Wizards would have just Wall, Beal and Troy Brown at a total of $67M, plus possibly Dwight if he opts in at $5.8M. So that would be between $37 and $43M in cap room (minus cap holds for Oubre and Sato at $9.6M and $5.9M respectively). If Dwight stays, they could have $19M in cap room even after accounting for the cap holds of Oubre and Sato and a 1st round pick. So, $19M in cap room to find free agents to join the following roster:

PG Wall/Sato
SG Beal
SF Oubre/Brown
PF 1st rd pick
C Howard

Or maybe it's $25M in cap room with the same roster sans Howard.

Is that a good thing? In this free agency market, $19M may not buy much because even second tier stars like Khris Middleton are going to get max money. And EG would be feeling pressure to sign someone because in the following year, once Oubre and Sato's actual salaries are factored (rather than their cap holds) and Wall's and Beal's salaries continue to escalate, there will be very little free agency money left. From that point onward, it's basically just the MLE.

[nate33]

Next year, the Wizards would have just Wall, Beal and Troy Brown at a total of $67M, plus possibly Dwight if he opts in at $5.8M. So that would be between $37 and $43M in cap room (minus cap holds for Oubre and Sato at $9.6M and $5.9M respectively). If Dwight stays, they could have $19M in cap room even after accounting for the cap holds of Oubre and Sato and a 1st round pick. So, $19M in cap room to find free agents to join the following roster:

PG Wall/Sato
SG Beal
SF Oubre/Brown
PF 1st rd pick
C Howard

Or maybe it's $25M in cap room with the same roster sans Howard.

Is that a good thing? In this free agency market, $19M may not buy much because even second tier stars like Khris Middleton are going to get max money. And EG would be feeling pressure to sign someone because in the following year, once Oubre and Sato's actual salaries are factored (rather than their cap holds) and Wall's and Beal's salaries continue to escalate, there will be very little free agency money left. From that point onward, it's basically just the MLE.

I think the real problem here is that it's pretty much impossible to build a roster via free agency when you are building around a supermax contract that isn't Lebron, Durant, Davis or Giannis. Those guys could conceivably win with just one other star plus good role players. Wall isn't in that tier. Wall can't win a title with just one other star player. He needs at least two, and most likely, one of those two should be better than Wall himself. Star players cost money. And star players acquired via free agency cost max money. You simply can't build a team via free agency with 2 max players and 1 supermax player. The math doesn't work. To get far enough under the cap to sign that third max player via free agency, you must necessarily gut your team of all depth. Miami was the only team to pull off this strategy, and that was before the supermax contract existed, and that was a team that had 3 guys all better than Wall including arguably the best player in history at the peak of his powers.

So basically, the underlying premise of dumping Mahinmi and Porter seems flawed to me. With Wall on the roster, there really is no benefit to getting under the cap because you'll never get far enough under the cap to afford superstars. Instead of trying to operate at or below the salary cap, it's better to operate just below the luxtax level. At least then, you can have a deep roster that you collectively pay $130M instead of $110M.

As long as Wall is on the roster, this team must get out of the mindset of "The Big Move". What they need is slow and steady competence from their GM. Teams like Utah, Boston and Toronto are the model. Draft well. Find cost effective free agents using the MLE. You want to "win" every transaction, even if only by a little. Hopefully, you can amass enough B-level assets to trade them in a package for one A-level asset like Toronto did with Kawhi and Boston did with Kyrie.

Of course, we need a good GM to do these things, so it's not going to happen until EG has shuffled off this mortal coil.

[payitforward]

If you think he's GM for life, then yeah he has to "shuffle off this mortal coil." It'd be nice to think that some less drastic event could lead to his departure.

I seem to remember Ted saying 2-3 years ago that he couldn't justify firing Ernie, because "he is following 'the strategy.'" IOW, he's doing what Ted wants him to do.

More evidence there that, unlike most owners, Ted doesn't think of GM as a high-value hire.

Yet, he spends a zillion dollars on a coach. That ought to give a person some insight into the limits of Ted's insight.

As I've pointed out many times, Ted is by no means some great entrepreneur. Steve Case, who started AOL, was that to be sure. I'm sure Ted "added value" as we used to like to say, but mostly he went along for the ride.

[nate33]

If you think he's GM for life, then yeah he has to "shuffle off this mortal coil." It'd be nice to think that some less drastic event could lead to his departure.

I seem to remember Ted saying 2-3 years ago that he couldn't justify firing Ernie, because "he is following 'the strategy.'" IOW, he's doing what Ted wants him to do.

More evidence there that, unlike most owners, Ted doesn't think of GM as a high-value hire.

Yet, he spends a zillion dollars on a coach. That ought to give a person some insight into the limits of Ted's insight.

As I've pointed out many times, Ted is by no means some great entrepreneur. Steve Case, who started AOL, was that to be sure. I'm sure Ted "added value" as we used to like to say, but mostly he went along for the ride.

Yes. I was assuming EG is literally GM for life. He'll have to die before we get a new one.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

↑↑↑↑↑

Yes, SA doesn't do the deal... but they might be interested in two high IQ players.

And no, the Kings wouldn't be giving up any picks. This allows us to move Mahimni, Porter and Sato and save lots of $$s. And might actually make us better for this year (as Sato and Porter are clearly out of favor). This is a straight salary dump to open up the possibilities for next year.

I'm no where near the point of a straight salary dump for a 25 yr old above average SF who's struggling at the moment.

If I can't get a quality asset for Porter then why deal him to simply get him off the roster? So we can save money that we'll inevitably spend poorly elsewhere? Easy pass for me.

Because he will never fit into this unit with Brooks as the coach and we would get a salary dump of Mahimni without using our pick.

If you could dump Wall/Brooks instead - that would be better, but that isn't going to happen.

Again, this allows us to move Mahimni (no luxury tax) and Sato and Porter who will always be in Brooks' doghouse - without losing our first round pick.

And it is compassionate to Porter ...

Brooks is such a downer.

That's all I got.

Sent from my SM-J337T using RealGM mobile app

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Next year, the Wizards would have just Wall, Beal and Troy Brown at a total of $67M, plus possibly Dwight if he opts in at $5.8M. So that would be between $37 and $43M in cap room (minus cap holds for Oubre and Sato at $9.6M and $5.9M respectively). If Dwight stays, they could have $19M in cap room even after accounting for the cap holds of Oubre and Sato and a 1st round pick. So, $19M in cap room to find free agents to join the following roster:

PG Wall/Sato
SG Beal
SF Oubre/Brown
PF 1st rd pick
C Howard

Or maybe it's $25M in cap room with the same roster sans Howard.

Is that a good thing? In this free agency market, $19M may not buy much because even second tier stars like Khris Middleton are going to get max money. And EG would be feeling pressure to sign someone because in the following year, once Oubre and Sato's actual salaries are factored (rather than their cap holds) and Wall's and Beal's salaries continue to escalate, there will be very little free agency money left. From that point onward, it's basically just the MLE.

I think the real problem here is that it's pretty much impossible to build a roster via free agency when you are building around a supermax contract that isn't Lebron, Durant, Davis or Giannis. Those guys could conceivably win with just one other star plus good role players. Wall isn't in that tier. Wall can't win a title with just one other star player. He needs at least two, and most likely, one of those two should be better than Wall himself. Star players cost money. And star players acquired via free agency cost max money. You simply can't build a team via free agency with 2 max players and 1 supermax player. The math doesn't work. To get far enough under the cap to sign that third max player via free agency, you must necessarily gut your team of all depth. Miami was the only team to pull off this strategy, and that was before the supermax contract existed, and that was a team that had 3 guys all better than Wall including arguably the best player in history at the peak of his powers.

So basically, the underlying premise of dumping Mahinmi and Porter seems flawed to me. With Wall on the roster, there really is no benefit to getting under the cap because you'll never get far enough under the cap to afford superstars. Instead of trying to operate at or below the salary cap, it's better to operate just below the luxtax level. At least then, you can have a deep roster that you collectively pay $130M instead of $110M.

As long as Wall is on the roster, this team must get out of the mindset of "The Big Move". What they need is slow and steady competence from their GM. Teams like Utah, Boston and Toronto are the model. Draft well. Find cost effective free agents using the MLE. You want to "win" every transaction, even if only by a little. Hopefully, you can amass enough B-level assets to trade them in a package for one A-level asset like Toronto did with Kawhi and Boston did with Kyrie.

Of course, we need a good GM to do these things, so it's not going to happen until EG has shuffled off this mortal coil.

EG is such a downer.

That's.....

Sent from my SM-J337T using RealGM mobile app

[mhd]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

[badinage]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

Love it. That’s very smart thinking.

It would change the team, for sure. Would balance it better between perimeter guys and bigs. Would give it a little more young juice. Would (in time) take Morris off the floor for long stretches.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

Throw a couple Sacto 2nd round picks in there and this is certainly interesting!

Otto's defense and efficiency make him IMO the better player. Bagley's better than Jahlil Okafor; but, darned if he's not a similarly limited player in some respects. What I like about Bagley is dude has three-point range. His defensive woes might not be huge liabilities, but he will NEVER be the prospect that Ayton is. I also think guys like Jaren Jackson Jr, Wendell Carter Jr, and Mo Bamba are eventually going to grade out as BETTER than Bagley Jr.

I don't know, MHD. It's certainly not the worst idea.

I just don't like Otto PLUS this draft pick. Nah. I am looking at guys like Ethan Happ in the 18 or so range of round one. He's going to be a very effective pro.

I would almost rather have a Gary Clark on the cheap than Bagley at the price of Otto PLUS a pick.

[gambitx777]

I feel like the jazz are going to hit that moment of, ok we have this super great young big man and they have to make a move or don't. I feel like making a move for a wall like guy would be a good move for them.

Wishful thinking. Utah is NOT going to trade for Wall. He's just not the right fit. They want the ball in Mitchell's hands.

Utah has a rock-solid core of Gobert and Mitchell, and they have a couple of quality starters locked on good deals in Ingles and Rubio. They also have a long history of drafting well. If they do anything, it'll probably be to trade Favors for another good forward. Indeed, if there's a trade between Washington and Utah to be made, it would probably be oriented around a Favors for Porter swap.

Also i don't really want to tank. Wall is not going to get a bunch of picks, look what jimmy butler went for. We would get two young players and a 1 year deal, and all the cap relief in the world. that's about what wall with his contract is worth.

Wall may not be worth a high pick. I dunno. But even if we got your package out of Utah, I'd flip Rubio to a 3rd team for a pick and a bad contract. The goal is to lose for the rest of this year. If Wall is unloaded, this team absolutely does need to tank, at least for one year. I like Beal, but the team isn't going anywhere if Beal is the best player.

You can argue that beal is the best player now.
IMO i would rather at least try to win, i get tanking thats fine but if we go forward with good drafting at any spot and smart signings. we can build the team and not need to tank.

[bsilver]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

I like Bagley and the trade. Shumpert > Rivers. We'd have to bring up Devin Robinson for SF depth, but I think he's good enough. (I think he should be playing for us right now)

Our current team is going nowhere and has no flexibility to change it. With Bagley we'd be a much more balanced team and get some short term financial relief.

Don't think the Kings would be interested. They love Bagley. They're very weak at SF, but have lots of cap room next year to try to address the problem.

[Dat2U]

As long as Wall plays well and is healthy, IMO he's very moveable. Probably moreso in the offseason when other teams strike out on free agency.

[DCZards]

IMO i would rather at least try to win, i get tanking thats fine but if we go forward with good drafting at any spot and smart signings. we can build the team and not need to tank.

I agree. I understand the theory behind "tanking" but I believe that history will show that most teams that tank remain bad for several years before turning it around...and many never turn it around.

Quality free agents aren't going to sign with a team that's tanking so really the only way I see to rebuild from a tank is to get lucky on a couple of draft nights (a la Philly with Embiid & Simmons). If we can move Wall (and his contract) for a pick and 1 or 2 up-and-coming young players who have already shown they can play at the NBA level, I'm with that. I'd even be willing to trade my fav Wizard (Beal) or Otto for a package of that kind.

Yes, the Zards should be looking to put together a team capable of competing for at least the EC championship. Right now, we're probably the 5th or 6th best team in the East. And that's not good enough. But I'm also not cool with the idea of going through 2-3 nonplayoff seasons of 30-35 wins to MAYBE be in a position to compete for a championship...and that's what I see when people talk about tanking.

There has to be a way to rebuild on the fly and not tank.

[gambitx777]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

I would rather do something like.
otto for randolph, maclemore, sckal and giles. cut randolph and maclemore, and you have two goo young 4s to develop.

[payitforward]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

I would rather do something like.
otto for randolph, maclemore, sckal and giles. cut randolph and maclemore, and you have two goo young 4s to develop.

Oh wow....

You want to give what has a good likelihood to be a lottery pick, along with Otto Porter for Skal Labissiere (who is so promising that Sac'to has played him all of 28 minutes so far this season) & Harry Giles.

In essence that's Otto & a R1 pick for Harry Giles. What an idea....

Also, what makes you think you can "cut" Randolph & McLemore, both of whom have guaranteed contracts? After your trade we have 18 players. (17 after letting go of Randle -- who is not guaranteed).

[Sactowndog]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

Love it. That’s very smart thinking.

It would change the team, for sure. Would balance it better between perimeter guys and bigs. Would give it a little more young juice. Would (in time) take Morris off the floor for long stretches.

Smart except Kings aren’t trading Bagley. Kid has superstar written all over him.

[nate33]

Haven't posted in a while, but what about this move:

Wizards trade Otto+2019 1st rounder (top 3 protected) for Shumpert (expiring)+Marvin Bagley?

Kings pick up a lost 1st rounder, get Otto to be their SF, and still have Giles (and especially Bjelica) to be their PF to play now. We get out of the tax, and get Bagley to be the big man of the future.

Love it. That’s very smart thinking.

It would change the team, for sure. Would balance it better between perimeter guys and bigs. Would give it a little more young juice. Would (in time) take Morris off the floor for long stretches.

Smart except Kings aren’t trading Bagley. Kid has superstar written all over him.

I don't know if he'll be a superstar, but I agree that the trade proposal is silly. Teams don't trade guys they just drafted when they're showing signs of All-Star caliber upside. It just doesn't happen. If we are astute enough to notice that Bagley is playing well, we can be damn sure that Sacramento has figured it out too.