Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread.

[Dat2U]

Or to say it another way, Wes' habits haven't helped in the win column or in player development.

He got stuck playing lots of minutes for Gibson, Gill and Nunn over the youngsters that are actually playing better than those veterans.

My conclusion is that he has cost us wins this season, stunted development at the same time and by doing so reduced our assets. All to shoot for the 10 spot.

But he is just a second year coach, so maybe he will develop.

Wes played Jordan Goodwin when he was producing. Deni has been developing. Rui played better here than he is in LA.

Beal, Porzingis, Delon, Morris are all having years that are as good or better than their peak at other stops. The Porzingis/Gafford pairing has worked well....

IOW, it's ridiculous to claim that Wes is holding back anyone's productivity. Agree totally.

OTOH, this...

Whereas Carey has shot .25% in his limited time on the floor. Gibson may be no good, but Carey is well below no good right now, at the NBA level....

...is kinda silly, don't you think? Vernon Carey has played a grand total of 28 minutes in a Wizards uni. He's taken 8 shots, of which only 2 went in.

There is nothing to take away from that fact.

Do you think he'll never miss a FT because he hasn't missed one yet?

Carey likely doesn't play because of issues on D. That's been the death knell to the career of many productive C. Its too important a position to say he rebounds & scores well so he's contributing. Even a slightly below average C can be an overwheming crutch defensively.

[doclinkin]

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I will be furious, FURIOUS I say, if Jay Huff doesn't get 10 minutes a game at least.

I liked him at Virginia his senior year, smooth and athletic for his size, showed a bit of an outside shot. Looks like they're bringing him in in that role, as an understudy for Porzingis I expect.

[dckingsfan]

Carey likely doesn't play because of issues on D. That's been the death knell to the career of many productive C. Its too important a position to say he rebounds & scores well so he's contributing. Even a slightly below average C can be an overwhelming crutch defensively.

With you on this - but if he, Todd and Davis can't cut it (each for their own reasons), then cut bait and try to develop three other players.

But this conversation started around the notion of Wes not playing youngsters as he battles for that 10th seed.

[nate33]

It'll be interesting to see whether they use that spot to sign another G-league guy, or a vet off of waivers

[gambitx777]

Now I'm pissed about carry. But I really enjoy Jay huff as a player. That said why the **** didn't we waive or cut Todd or Gill. Carry at least puts up good numbers in the g league and it a big body banger. You should have kept him and gotten rid of the dead weight to sign huff.

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[nate33]

Now I'm pissed about carry. But I really enjoy Jay huff as a player. That said why the **** didn't we waive or cut Todd or Gill. Carry at least puts up good numbers in the g league and it a big body banger. You should have kept him and gotten rid of the dead weight to sign huff.

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Todd and Gill are signed through next season. Carey was an expiring contract.

[doclinkin]

Posted this in the GoGo thread but it fits better here:

What I said in the line-ups thread. If Porzingis goes down we need a back-up tall-guy-with-a-jumper. Carey is strictly a low post banger. Huff is a nimble and lean 7 footer shooting 40% from 3 in the G-League.

Carey is shooting 38% from 3 this year on 3 attempts per game. He’s significantly more athletic than Huff. They signed Huff to be a tall shot blocking 3rd string C.

True, Huff plays better defense. He played 4 years at Virginia on teams that were regularly #1 or 2 in the NCAA on defense. Offensively, I haven't seen him in the G-League, but recall at UVA he regularly popped to the outside to drop in long range shots. And commonly played the role we see KP take, as a face-up big who can play outside-in.

Watch on YouTube

^^^^ that's not an underskilled shot-blocking scrub.

When I have watched the GoGo I saw Carey muscling for rebounds underneath, but didn't really see him playing that high post Big role. It's not just outside shooting, but ball movement, team play, etc, decision-making, setting screens, anticipating the play, off ball movement, etc. Huff in VA looked like a junior Unicorn in training.

We'll see, to me this is an indicator that the team is worried KP might be out for a little bit and they want insurance, a load management placeholder, and possibly someone who can share the court with Gafford to preserve the option of that 2 Big line-up. But yes, if KP is down, we need a defensive presence who can relieve Gafford when foul troubles arise. Carey on defense was not the answer. Huff fills a need.

Huff is plug-and-play ready for all the sets that we usually run for Porzingis. I like the move.

[gambitx777]

Now I'm pissed about carry. But I really enjoy Jay huff as a player. That said why the **** didn't we waive or cut Todd or Gill. Carry at least puts up good numbers in the g league and it a big body banger. You should have kept him and gotten rid of the dead weight to sign huff.

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Todd and Gill are signed through next season. Carey was an expiring contract.

I don't care honestly. We had a player option on Cary and he's better than Todd and gill eat the money and get rid of the dead weight.

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[nate33]

Now I'm pissed about carry. But I really enjoy Jay huff as a player. That said why the **** didn't we waive or cut Todd or Gill. Carry at least puts up good numbers in the g league and it a big body banger. You should have kept him and gotten rid of the dead weight to sign huff.

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Todd and Gill are signed through next season. Carey was an expiring contract.

I don't care honestly. We had a player option on Cary and he's better than Todd and gill eat the money and get rid of the dead weight.

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That’s just not the way things work in the real world. Sheppard isn’t going to cut Todd while still being forced to pay his salary for next year. That wouldn’t just impact Ted’s wallet, Todd’s salary would count against the cap and the luxtax.

Frankly, both Carey and Todd need to go. But since they’re forced to pay Todd anyhow, they’re going to wait at least one more summer before accepting him as a sunk cost and cutting him.

[gambitx777]

Todd and Gill are signed through next season. Carey was an expiring contract.

I don't care honestly. We had a player option on Cary and he's better than Todd and gill eat the money and get rid of the dead weight.

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That’s just not the way things work in the real world. Sheppard isn’t going to cut Todd while still being forced to pay his salary for next year. That wouldn’t just impact Ted’s wallet, Todd’s salary would count against the cap and the luxtax.

Frankly, both Carey and Todd need to go. But since they’re forced to pay Todd anyhow, they’re going to wait at least one more summer before accepting him as a sunk cost and cutting him.

You could release him not and stretch provision him and it would only cost you like 200 k against the cap or do the same with Gill. Sure it's a little money not but Gill is like 32 and has not potential and Todd is a true bust. Cary might be worth something in a trade if he has some good games. I just don't agree with getting rid of him. He doesn't fit out play style, but he's young and has some potential why just waste that and keep Gill or for **** sakes CUT TAJ MOTHER **** GIBSON ! Higher him on the staff if you want but for the love of God why keep him around over Cary lol.

Again I love Jay huff!

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[nate33]

[You could release him not and stretch provision him and it would only cost you like 200 k against the cap or do the same with Gill. Sure it's a little money not but Gill is like 32 and has not potential and Todd is a true bust. Cary might be worth something in a trade if he has some good games. I just don't agree with getting rid of him. He doesn't fit out play style, but he's young and has some potential why just waste that and keep Gill or for **** sakes CUT TAJ MOTHER **** GIBSON ! Higher him on the staff if you want but for the love of God why keep him around over Cary lol.

Carey has been in the NBA for 3 years and 2 teams, and nobody has enough respect for his game to even let him on the floor. He has no trade value. The idea that he could be showcased and traded for value is ludicrous. Wes Jr is not an idiot. He sees Carey in practice.

And stretching a guy doesn’t make the salary go away. It just spreads it out over more years. I’m more concerned about the future than now. I don’t want a dead weight contract on the books 2 years from now just because we are trying to clear space for a 15th man out of the G-League.

Look, I absolutely freaking guarantee that Carey Jr. will not be a productive player in this league. You don’t go 3 years without even being given a chance to play unless you absolutely suck. At best, he’ll manage to find another team who will sign him for a 1-year vet minimum deal to be a 13th man. But chances are, he is now in 10-day contract territory, unless he goes overseas.

And Taj Gibson has been solid for us. It’s hard to find a guy who is content to sit on the bench for 4 straight games, and then come in to play important minutes for a couple of games, and then going back to sitting. Gibson has done that well, and posted a +5.6 point differential in the process.

[dckingsfan]

Frankly, both Carey and Todd need to go. But since they’re forced to pay Todd anyhow, they’re going to wait at least one more summer before accepting him as a sunk cost and cutting him.

Carey goes away after this year. Todd & Davis could be used as expiring contracts in a trade next year. I get that - you have to wait.

But those are three slots where you aren't doing player development.

And I will come back to the question of why Wes plays the Vets over the younger players (Carey not withstanding)?

In my mind, the answer is that to Wes making the play-in is more important than player development at this point. I am good with that but it doesn't seem like a good long-term strategy.

If you believe we are going to have Beal, Kuz and Porzingis as our big three - where is the growth going to come from? What kicks us from the 10th seed to the top 4?

Asking for a friend.

[nate33]

If you believe we are going to have Beal, Kuz and Porzingis as our big three - where is the growth going to come from? What kicks us from the 10th seed to the top 4?

Asking for a friend.

Vernon Carey sure as hell won’t get us to the 4th seed. You can turn nothing into something via player development. You gotta start with some raw talent.

But we are developing Gafford, Avdija, Kispert and Goodwin. Basically, every guy who has some talent is getting an opportunity. If Davis was playable, we’d be developing him too. (We are developing him, just in the G league.)

[DCZards]

Frankly, both Carey and Todd need to go. But since they’re forced to pay Todd anyhow, they’re going to wait at least one more summer before accepting him as a sunk cost and cutting him.

Carey goes away after this year. Todd & Davis could be used as expiring contracts in a trade next year. I get that - you have to wait.

But those are three slots where you aren't doing player development.

And I will come back to the question of why Wes plays the Vets over the younger players (Carey not withstanding)?

In my mind, the answer is that to Wes making the play-in is more important than player development at this point. I am good with that but it doesn't seem like a good long-term strategy.

If you believe we are going to have Beal, Kuz and Porzingis as our big three - where is the growth going to come from? What kicks us from the 10th seed to the top 4?

Asking for a friend.

Player development doesn’t only take place during NBA games. It also happens in the G League and in practices against NBA players.

Weren’t you the one arguing back in October that Davis needed to spend a developmental year in the G League?

Asking for a friend.

And what makes you think that making the play-in rather than player development is only important to Wes? It may be just as important to his bosses—Ted and Shep.

[NatP4]

Todd is the worst player I have ever seen. That’s not even hyperbole, he’s actually horrendous. He’s not even a basketball player, he just runs around.

Carey was good in college, good in the g league, good in summer league. There’s reason to believe that he should get a shot in the NBA. There’s no reason to think that about Todd.

This is just compounding a mistake with another mistake, just like letting go of Garrison Mathews and keeping Todd. This is a dumb organization.

[doclinkin]

Todd is the worst player I have ever seen. That’s not even hyperbole, he’s actually horrendous. He’s not even a basketball player, he just runs around.

TRUE. Or fails to run around, and just stands in the wrong spot waiting for a clue.

Carey was good in college, good in the g league, good in summer league. There’s reason to believe that he should get a shot in the NBA. There’s no reason to think that about Todd.

This is just compounding a mistake with another mistake, just like letting go of Garrison Mathews and keeping Todd. This is a dumb organization.

Carey does not defend at an NBA level. Or anywhere outside the paint. Garrison was a mistake, though he has bounced to a few teams now. And hasn't exactly been lighting the world on fire this year.

I think Jay Huff has a chance to be a decent surprise. We are talking about end of bench minutes, so any sort of upgrade is fine but not critical. Still, our biggest vulnerability is health, and back-ups for our Starters. Deni is fine in relief of Kuzma. Nunn has done a solid job filling in behind Beal. Delon or Goodwin replace Morris competently. Who do we have behind Porzingis and Gafford that is ready to play? It wasn't Carey. Wasn't Thomas Bryant. Makur Maker is shooting 31% from 3 with a negative +/- in the G League. So who?

Jay Huff is 25. Championship resume. +4.7 in G League play. Blocking 3.6 shots a game in only 26 minutes. Is shooting 60/40/80. Seems worth the risk of an upgrade. I credit Tommy for trying, and for never being satisfied. We have appreciated his pick-ups before, out of no where, I'm curious about this one. Seems like an experiment that can work, at the very low cost of the possibility that Vernon Carey eventually breaks out with another team.

[gambitx777]

Todd is the worst player I have ever seen. That’s not even hyperbole, he’s actually horrendous. He’s not even a basketball player, he just runs around.

TRUE. Or fails to run around, and just stands in the wrong spot waiting for a clue.

Carey was good in college, good in the g league, good in summer league. There’s reason to believe that he should get a shot in the NBA. There’s no reason to think that about Todd.

This is just compounding a mistake with another mistake, just like letting go of Garrison Mathews and keeping Todd. This is a dumb organization.

Carey does not defend at an NBA level. Or anywhere outside the paint. Garrison was a mistake, though he has bounced to a few teams now. And hasn't exactly been lighting the world on fire this year.

I think Jay Huff has a chance to be a decent surprise. We are talking about end of bench minutes, so any sort of upgrade is fine but not critical. Still, our biggest vulnerability is health, and back-ups for our Starters. Deni is fine in relief of Kuzma. Nunn has done a solid job filling in behind Beal. Delon or Goodwin replace Morris competently. Who do we have behind Porzingis and Gafford that is ready to play? It wasn't Carey. Wasn't Thomas Bryant. Makur Maker is shooting 31% from 3 with a negative +/- in the G League. So who?

Jay Huff is 25. Championship resume. +4.7 in G League play. Blocking 3.6 shots a game in only 26 minutes. Is shooting 60/40/80. Seems worth the risk of an upgrade. I credit Tommy for trying, and for never being satisfied. We have appreciated his pick-ups before, out of no where, I'm curious about this one. Seems like an experiment that can work, at the very low cost of the possibility that Vernon Carey eventually breaks out with another team.

I'm sorry but my issue isn't with the pick up. Huff is a nice player! But my issue is that carry is 22 gonna be younger than some of the players taken in the draft! No reason to give up on him with his promising g league play. Taj is washed no matter what he's not worth a spot. You can cut him and hire him to the staff if you want him around. Gill has zero upside and yes eating a bit of cost to get him gone him is meh but it's not a lot of cost and Todd has shown he's a true bust, possibly could have a buy out worked since there is some wiggle room. I don't understand why not them over a young guy like carry. Also why the ****, didn't you make this effort at the deadline. Find a cheap way to off load Todd or Gill or Taj or Nunn or carry of you were finished with him. I'm just annoyed and I hate seeing Taj Gibson on the floor.

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[BearlyBallin]

Welp. Deni is happy and playing well with Rui out the way.

Gaff is happy getting starters minutes.

The big lineup seems to work and KP seems happy that he's no longer having to defend bigs.

Beal doesn't seem 100% but is playing smart and efficient. He seems happy.

Morris & Wright have Solid & Steady vets at the PG position.

Kuzma is equally mediocre at PF or SF but he provides much needed playmaking & scoring on the roster low on shot creators.

Kispert is meh but playable and offers spacing. Goodwin plays like a strong steady defensive backup.

If they could find a true shot creator at the 1 or 3 and upgrade from Taj Gibson at backup C, they may have something. Tall order on finding a shot creator but the backup C part is managable.

Either way our modest success is killing the tank and its been real hard for me to take but its hard not to notice how the roster has evolved to where all 16 guys have clearly defined roles. The only remaining guy that might be upset is Barton but even his role is clearly defined - be a professional and good teammate until either we trade you or release you.

So you said:
- dump Barton- Done
- upgrade backup C - Huff?
- find a 1 or 3 that’s a true shot creator- can we draft one or have we improved too much and will probably lose the first round pick ?

You should start your own consulting business. For real.

[dckingsfan]

Todd is the worst player I have ever seen. That’s not even hyperbole, he’s actually horrendous. He’s not even a basketball player, he just runs around.

Carey was good in college, good in the g league, good in summer league. There’s reason to believe that he should get a shot in the NBA. There’s no reason to think that about Todd.

This is just compounding a mistake with another mistake, just like letting go of Garrison Mathews and keeping Todd. This is a dumb organization.

Well, if you have a double bottom, build from the middle, making the play-in is top of your goals and objectives - this is an Einstein of an organization

[Kanyewest]

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