ImageImageImageImageImage

Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE)

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

DCZards
RealGM
Posts: 11,138
And1: 4,986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Location: The Streets of DC
     

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1581 » by DCZards » Mon May 6, 2019 1:23 pm

nate33 wrote:You don't score 17 points a game on a TS% of 70% by having no offensive skills. He certainly has a post game because he can turn around and jump over defenders to get his shot off. And he shot 73% from the FT line over his last 30 games this year so i think his shooting will be fine.

I think he'll have a Pascal Siakam type of impact, or at least a much better-defending version of Kenneth Faried.


I'd be a lot more confident in Brandon Clarke developing his shot if he were 19 or 20 years old rather than almost 23. I doubt that he'll ever be a decent 3pt shooter.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1582 » by payitforward » Mon May 6, 2019 6:14 pm

Dat2U wrote:Here's the only way I'd trade Zion if the Wizards land the #1 pick.

Anthony Davis (only if he agrees to resign)
Jrue Holiday

For

Rights to Zion Williamson
John Wall
Ian Mahinmi
Dwight Howard

Wizards New Roster:
F Anthony Davis 27.1 mil 2019-20 salary
G Bradley Beal 27.1 mil
G Jrue Holiday 26.7 mil
F Troy Brown Jr 3.2 mil

Key Free Agents:
G Tomas Satoransky 5.9 mil cap hold
C Thomas Bryant 3.0 mil cap hold
F Jeff Green 1.6 mil cap hold

Incomplete roster charge: (6) 5.4 mil cap hold

Non-guaranteed contracts:
G Jordan McRae 1.4 mil
G Tarik Phillip 1.4 mil

The Wizards would be about $9 mil UNDER the cap in this scenario. The max cap space the Wizards could create is approximately $18 mil including incomplete roster charges.

Very imaginative exercise, Dat! If Sato/Bryant cost us $15m next year, we'd be at $96m for 6 guys. I assume you want Green back, b/c otherwise who plays the 4? Or, could we start both Bryant & Davis?


I wonder whether this is a realistic trade idea? I.e. would NO actually be interested? What if it were simply Zion/Wall for Davis? Less interesting in your opinion -- for us? For them? :)

Not sure I see roles for McRae/Phillip on this team which is surely being put together to contend right now. OTOH, I'd be trying to buy two R2 picks this year!
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,176
And1: 22,593
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1583 » by nate33 » Mon May 6, 2019 7:13 pm

payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Here's the only way I'd trade Zion if the Wizards land the #1 pick.

Anthony Davis (only if he agrees to resign)
Jrue Holiday

For

Rights to Zion Williamson
John Wall
Ian Mahinmi
Dwight Howard

Wizards New Roster:
F Anthony Davis 27.1 mil 2019-20 salary
G Bradley Beal 27.1 mil
G Jrue Holiday 26.7 mil
F Troy Brown Jr 3.2 mil

Key Free Agents:
G Tomas Satoransky 5.9 mil cap hold
C Thomas Bryant 3.0 mil cap hold
F Jeff Green 1.6 mil cap hold

Incomplete roster charge: (6) 5.4 mil cap hold

Non-guaranteed contracts:
G Jordan McRae 1.4 mil
G Tarik Phillip 1.4 mil

The Wizards would be about $9 mil UNDER the cap in this scenario. The max cap space the Wizards could create is approximately $18 mil including incomplete roster charges.

Very imaginative exercise, Dat! If Sato/Bryant cost us $15m next year, we'd be at $96m for 6 guys. I assume you want Green back, b/c otherwise who plays the 4? Or, could we start both Bryant & Davis?


I wonder whether this is a realistic trade idea? I.e. would NO actually be interested? What if it were simply Zion/Wall for Davis? Less interesting in your opinion -- for us? For them? :)

Not sure I see roles for McRae/Phillip on this team which is surely being put together to contend right now. OTOH, I'd be trying to buy two R2 picks this year!

That trade would be glorious, but highly unlikely. I don't see New Orleans absorbing Wall's contract. But, man, if that trade happened it would be epic! I might do it even if we threw in a future unprotected 1st.

After resigning Sato and Bryant, you'd have the following team with a payroll of $100M:
PG Jrue/Sato
SG Beal/Sato
SF Brown
PF Davis
C Bryant/Davis

We'd need at least one more good SF and one good PF, but only $10M in cap room unless we forgo the cap restraints and use the MLE and Bird Rights to get the payroll well above the cap. I'd probably lean toward the latter. I'd probably resign Parker with Bird Rights and then use the MLE on another SF (Shumpert/Ross/KCP tier guy, I guess). Either that or resign Ariza with Bird Rights and then use the MLE on a PF, but I like that option much less. Then resign Dekker and Green and maybe a 3rd big man like a Kyle O'Quinn.
This lineup looks pretty promising going forward:

PG Jrue/Sato
SG Beal/Sato
SF Brown/Ross
PF Davis/Parker
C Bryant/Davis
End of bench: McRae, Dekker, Green, O'Quinn.

With the right coach and the dissolution of Golden State, that team is a contender - particularly if we get the Parker of the last 30 games minus about 10 pounds of body fat.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1584 » by payitforward » Mon May 6, 2019 7:34 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:You don't score 17 points a game on a TS% of 70% by having no offensive skills. He certainly has a post game because he can turn around and jump over defenders to get his shot off. And he shot 73% from the FT line over his last 30 games this year so i think his shooting will be fine.

I think he'll have a Pascal Siakam type of impact, or at least a much better-defending version of Kenneth Faried.

I'd be a lot more confident in Brandon Clarke developing his shot if he were 19 or 20 years old rather than almost 23. I doubt that he'll ever be a decent 3pt shooter.

Can't really argue with either point of view here -- obviously, if his shooting were at the level of everything else he does, he'd go right behind Zion.

But "shooting" & "scoring" are two different things -- & somehow this kid does score the ball. A reasonable amount & incredibly efficiently. & he's shown he can score in volume opportunistically.

The main way these points might cast shade on Zards' argument is that if you put your worst defender on him, well... I think he's going to rain buckets on you.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1585 » by payitforward » Mon May 6, 2019 7:41 pm

All the same, I'm still inclined to trade down from 6 if that's where we are, & try to get two high-quality prospects. Clarke included. If not Clarke, then Bitadze & another good one or...

For example
Spoiler:
Could we trade our # 6 to Boston for their #s 14, 22 & 51? Is that reasonable, given that Boston will only be able to absorb one rookie this year?

If so,
Spoiler:
would we be able to deal the #14 to Philly for their 24, 34, 42 & 54?

Now, in that case might we
Spoiler:
move that #34 to Charlotte for their #s 36 & 52 (a deal like that went down last year)?

Then, using the Tankathon mock as a model, we'd be able to take
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze (22), Matisse Thybulle (or Mfiondu Kabengele) (24), Dylan Windler (or Jontay Porter) (36), Shamorie Ponds (or Jalen McDaniels) (42), Dedric Lawson (51), Killian Tillie (52) & Ethan Happ (or Miye Oni) (56).

These guys are going to be good. In fact...
Spoiler:
Dat has Bitadze as pretty close to a sure thing at a high level.
A number of people have pointed to Thybulle as one of the best defenders in the entire draft.
Dat has Kabengele coming into the league & having an instant impact.
Dylan Windler is one of the best scorers/rebounders in the entire draft.
Jontay Porter is a lottery talent downgraded by injury.
Shamorie Ponds has been a bucket getter since the first day he played in college.
Jalen McDaniels had a truly exceptional Freshman year at San Diego State, declined a little his 2d year but still looks like the 2d coming of Paul George.
Dedric Lawson is nate's discovery. He might be a clone of Darren Clarke except he has a 3-point shot.
Killian Tillie is one of Dat's pick hits.
Ethan Happ was a star at Wisconsin his first 3 years -- he's another of Dat's pick hits.
Miye Oni hasn't been mentioned here; a 6'6" SG, he has been described as "An athlete with an emerging game and big time natural ability."

Lets say we wound up with
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze, Mfiondu Kabengele, Dylan Windler, Shamorie Ponds, Dedric Lawson, Killian Tillie & Ethan Happ.

I'd say 3-4 of those guys are
Spoiler:
sure things to be above average NBA players
-- a couple of them could
Spoiler:
turn into stars (any two you like).

We'd be
Spoiler:
the envy of the league.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1586 » by payitforward » Mon May 6, 2019 7:45 pm

Yes, I am
Spoiler:
joking.
Spoiler:
...kind of.
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,582
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1587 » by Ruzious » Mon May 6, 2019 8:10 pm

Spoiler:
Dedric Lawson is nate's discovery. He might be a clone of Darren Clarke except he has a 3-point shot.

I hope you didn't mean Brandon Clarke, but I googled Darren Clarke and found a golfer and a baseball player, so I fear you did. :D

Fwiw (very little), CCJ and I and others were talking about Lawson before last year's draft. He's nothing like Clarke, but he's a nice player, but it so Happens (get it?) that he'll succeed where Ethan fails. Oh yeah, spoiler alert.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 24,148
And1: 7,910
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1588 » by Dat2U » Mon May 6, 2019 10:56 pm

payitforward wrote:All the same, I'm still inclined to trade down from 6 if that's where we are, & try to get two high-quality prospects. Clarke included. If not Clarke, then Bitadze & another good one or...

For example
Spoiler:
Could we trade our # 6 to Boston for their #s 14, 22 & 51? Is that reasonable, given that Boston will only be able to absorb one rookie this year?

If so,
Spoiler:
would we be able to deal the #14 to Philly for their 24, 34, 42 & 54?

Now, in that case might we
Spoiler:
move that #34 to Charlotte for their #s 36 & 52 (a deal like that went down last year)?

Then, using the Tankathon mock as a model, we'd be able to take
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze (22), Matisse Thybulle (or Mfiondu Kabengele) (24), Dylan Windler (or Jontay Porter) (36), Shamorie Ponds (or Jalen McDaniels) (42), Dedric Lawson (51), Killian Tillie (52) & Ethan Happ (or Miye Oni) (56).

These guys are going to be good. In fact...
Spoiler:
Dat has Bitadze as pretty close to a sure thing at a high level.
A number of people have pointed to Thybulle as one of the best defenders in the entire draft.
Dat has Kabengele coming into the league & having an instant impact.
Dylan Windler is one of the best scorers/rebounders in the entire draft.
Jontay Porter is a lottery talent downgraded by injury.
Shamorie Ponds has been a bucket getter since the first day he played in college.
Jalen McDaniels had a truly exceptional Freshman year at San Diego State, declined a little his 2d year but still looks like the 2d coming of Paul George.
Dedric Lawson is nate's discovery. He might be a clone of Darren Clarke except he has a 3-point shot.
Killian Tillie is one of Dat's pick hits.
Ethan Happ was a star at Wisconsin his first 3 years -- he's another of Dat's pick hits.
Miye Oni hasn't been mentioned here; a 6'6" SG, he has been described as "An athlete with an emerging game and big time natural ability."

Lets say we wound up with
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze, Mfiondu Kabengele, Dylan Windler, Shamorie Ponds, Dedric Lawson, Killian Tillie & Ethan Happ.

I'd say 3-4 of those guys are
Spoiler:
sure things to be above average NBA players
-- a couple of them could
Spoiler:
turn into stars (any two you like).

We'd be
Spoiler:
the envy of the league.


Too many rookies. Four of them are projected to be Centers. :D Too many guys that need to learn the NBA on and off the court. I'd say any more than 3 your pushing it. Maybe 4 with a strong culture. Of course don't have that either.

So the 6th for Boston for their 14, 22, 51 would be fine by me. I think Clarke is off the board by then. Bitadze may still be there.

At 22 I'd probably lean Windler over Kabengele since SF is a need.

At 51, I'd be thrilled with Ponds or Happ.
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 24,148
And1: 7,910
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1589 » by Dat2U » Mon May 6, 2019 11:10 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Here's the only way I'd trade Zion if the Wizards land the #1 pick.

Anthony Davis (only if he agrees to resign)
Jrue Holiday

For

Rights to Zion Williamson
John Wall
Ian Mahinmi
Dwight Howard

Wizards New Roster:
F Anthony Davis 27.1 mil 2019-20 salary
G Bradley Beal 27.1 mil
G Jrue Holiday 26.7 mil
F Troy Brown Jr 3.2 mil

Key Free Agents:
G Tomas Satoransky 5.9 mil cap hold
C Thomas Bryant 3.0 mil cap hold
F Jeff Green 1.6 mil cap hold

Incomplete roster charge: (6) 5.4 mil cap hold

Non-guaranteed contracts:
G Jordan McRae 1.4 mil
G Tarik Phillip 1.4 mil

The Wizards would be about $9 mil UNDER the cap in this scenario. The max cap space the Wizards could create is approximately $18 mil including incomplete roster charges.

Very imaginative exercise, Dat! If Sato/Bryant cost us $15m next year, we'd be at $96m for 6 guys. I assume you want Green back, b/c otherwise who plays the 4? Or, could we start both Bryant & Davis?


I wonder whether this is a realistic trade idea? I.e. would NO actually be interested? What if it were simply Zion/Wall for Davis? Less interesting in your opinion -- for us? For them? :)

Not sure I see roles for McRae/Phillip on this team which is surely being put together to contend right now. OTOH, I'd be trying to buy two R2 picks this year!

That trade would be glorious, but highly unlikely. I don't see New Orleans absorbing Wall's contract. But, man, if that trade happened it would be epic! I might do it even if we threw in a future unprotected 1st.

After resigning Sato and Bryant, you'd have the following team with a payroll of $100M:
PG Jrue/Sato
SG Beal/Sato
SF Brown
PF Davis
C Bryant/Davis

We'd need at least one more good SF and one good PF, but only $10M in cap room unless we forgo the cap restraints and use the MLE and Bird Rights to get the payroll well above the cap. I'd probably lean toward the latter. I'd probably resign Parker with Bird Rights and then use the MLE on another SF (Shumpert/Ross/KCP tier guy, I guess). Either that or resign Ariza with Bird Rights and then use the MLE on a PF, but I like that option much less. Then resign Dekker and Green and maybe a 3rd big man like a Kyle O'Quinn.
This lineup looks pretty promising going forward:

PG Jrue/Sato
SG Beal/Sato
SF Brown/Ross
PF Davis/Parker
C Bryant/Davis
End of bench: McRae, Dekker, Green, O'Quinn.

With the right coach and the dissolution of Golden State, that team is a contender - particularly if we get the Parker of the last 30 games minus about 10 pounds of body fat.


The only reason I consider it is because it makes the Wizards an immediate contender. Otherwise why trade the best #1 prospect in years? Jrue has to be involved from my perspective and they have to take Wall. If they truly feel Zion is transformational, then it could be worth it especially if they think Wall can be productive once healthy.

For the Wizards, I'd just get the best shooters I could find. Tell Sato he's the PG and have him defend SFs while Beal & Jrue take advantage of mismatches against other wings. AD's life is easy. Start him at PF with an improved Bryant doing the grunt work in the paint. Went it's time to run teams off the court, switch AD to C. I'd go for many of names I've mentioned. Danny Green, Seth Curry. Ersan Ilyasova for one of our trade exceptions. Kyle O'Quinn as a vet influence on/off court. Jeff Green for AD's load management lol.

G JRUE HOLIDAY, Seth Curry
G BRADLEY BEAL, Danny Green, Jordan McRae
G Tomas Satoransky, Troy Brown Jr.
F ANTHONY DAVIS, Ersan Ilyasova, Jeff Green
C Thomas Bryant, Kyle O'Quinn
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1590 » by payitforward » Mon May 6, 2019 11:58 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Spoiler:
Dedric Lawson is nate's discovery. He might be a clone of Darren Clarke except he has a 3-point shot.

I hope you didn't mean Brandon Clarke, but I googled Darren Clarke and found a golfer and a baseball player, so I fear you did. :D

Fwiw (very little), CCJ and I and others were talking about Lawson before last year's draft. He's nothing like Clarke, but he's a nice player, but it so Happens (get it?) that he'll succeed where Ethan fails. Oh yeah, spoiler alert.

How did I not recall last year's conversation about... Ethan Clarke? Or, maybe the British aristocrat, Sir Dedric Clarke?

One interesting thing about Darren Dedric Lawson is that after two years at Memphis, where basketball-reference grades the strength of schedule at @ 3.5, he transferred to Kansas, where the strength of schedule is listed at 12.79, and... improved!

But you are right that in fact he's nothing like Clarke. Above all, Clarke is meant to be by far the superior athlete. It'll be interesting to see how Lawson grades out at the combine. He went there in 2016 & posted horrible agility, etc. numbers.

Aside from the kid's numbers, when you watch him play he's impressive. He has a big-time will to win, seems never to be afraid of the moment, & looks to have a solid understanding of the game.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1591 » by payitforward » Tue May 7, 2019 12:09 am

Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:All the same, I'm still inclined to trade down from 6 if that's where we are, & try to get two high-quality prospects. Clarke included. If not Clarke, then Bitadze & another good one or...

For example
Spoiler:
Could we trade our # 6 to Boston for their #s 14, 22 & 51? Is that reasonable, given that Boston will only be able to absorb one rookie this year?

If so,
Spoiler:
would we be able to deal the #14 to Philly for their 24, 34, 42 & 54?

Now, in that case might we
Spoiler:
move that #34 to Charlotte for their #s 36 & 52 (a deal like that went down last year)?

Then, using the Tankathon mock as a model, we'd be able to take
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze (22), Matisse Thybulle (or Mfiondu Kabengele) (24), Dylan Windler (or Jontay Porter) (36), Shamorie Ponds (or Jalen McDaniels) (42), Dedric Lawson (51), Killian Tillie (52) & Ethan Happ (or Miye Oni) (56).

These guys are going to be good. In fact...
Spoiler:
Dat has Bitadze as pretty close to a sure thing at a high level.
A number of people have pointed to Thybulle as one of the best defenders in the entire draft.
Dat has Kabengele coming into the league & having an instant impact.
Dylan Windler is one of the best scorers/rebounders in the entire draft.
Jontay Porter is a lottery talent downgraded by injury.
Shamorie Ponds has been a bucket getter since the first day he played in college.
Jalen McDaniels had a truly exceptional Freshman year at San Diego State, declined a little his 2d year but still looks like the 2d coming of Paul George.
Dedric Lawson is nate's discovery. He might be a clone of Darren Clarke except he has a 3-point shot.
Killian Tillie is one of Dat's pick hits.
Ethan Happ was a star at Wisconsin his first 3 years -- he's another of Dat's pick hits.
Miye Oni hasn't been mentioned here; a 6'6" SG, he has been described as "An athlete with an emerging game and big time natural ability."

Lets say we wound up with
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze, Mfiondu Kabengele, Dylan Windler, Shamorie Ponds, Dedric Lawson, Killian Tillie & Ethan Happ.

I'd say 3-4 of those guys are
Spoiler:
sure things to be above average NBA players
-- a couple of them could
Spoiler:
turn into stars (any two you like).

We'd be
Spoiler:
the envy of the league.

Too many rookies. Four of them are projected to be Centers. :D Too many guys that need to learn the NBA on and off the court. I'd say any more than 3 your pushing it. Maybe 4 with a strong culture. Of course don't have that either.

So the 6th for Boston for their 14, 22, 51 would be fine by me. I think Clarke is off the board by then. Bitadze may still be there.

At 22 I'd probably lean Windler over Kabengele since SF is a need.

At 51, I'd be thrilled with Ponds or Happ.

Thing is "7" is a mystical number. Things organized around "7" always work better than expected. If it were 6 it would definitely be a problem, tho. 6 rookies is @ 2 too many (or else 1 too few, obviously).

The other reason to start at 7 is so you can be pushed back to 3: Clarke falls to 14, Windler at 22, then Ponds at 51. Lawson goes undrafted, & we sign him post-draft. ...Wait a minute, somehow I got back to 4 rookies. Let me work on it some more....
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 24,148
And1: 7,910
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1592 » by Dat2U » Tue May 7, 2019 3:06 pm

payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:All the same, I'm still inclined to trade down from 6 if that's where we are, & try to get two high-quality prospects. Clarke included. If not Clarke, then Bitadze & another good one or...

For example
Spoiler:
Could we trade our # 6 to Boston for their #s 14, 22 & 51? Is that reasonable, given that Boston will only be able to absorb one rookie this year?

If so,
Spoiler:
would we be able to deal the #14 to Philly for their 24, 34, 42 & 54?

Now, in that case might we
Spoiler:
move that #34 to Charlotte for their #s 36 & 52 (a deal like that went down last year)?

Then, using the Tankathon mock as a model, we'd be able to take
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze (22), Matisse Thybulle (or Mfiondu Kabengele) (24), Dylan Windler (or Jontay Porter) (36), Shamorie Ponds (or Jalen McDaniels) (42), Dedric Lawson (51), Killian Tillie (52) & Ethan Happ (or Miye Oni) (56).

These guys are going to be good. In fact...
Spoiler:
Dat has Bitadze as pretty close to a sure thing at a high level.
A number of people have pointed to Thybulle as one of the best defenders in the entire draft.
Dat has Kabengele coming into the league & having an instant impact.
Dylan Windler is one of the best scorers/rebounders in the entire draft.
Jontay Porter is a lottery talent downgraded by injury.
Shamorie Ponds has been a bucket getter since the first day he played in college.
Jalen McDaniels had a truly exceptional Freshman year at San Diego State, declined a little his 2d year but still looks like the 2d coming of Paul George.
Dedric Lawson is nate's discovery. He might be a clone of Darren Clarke except he has a 3-point shot.
Killian Tillie is one of Dat's pick hits.
Ethan Happ was a star at Wisconsin his first 3 years -- he's another of Dat's pick hits.
Miye Oni hasn't been mentioned here; a 6'6" SG, he has been described as "An athlete with an emerging game and big time natural ability."

Lets say we wound up with
Spoiler:
Gogo Bitadze, Mfiondu Kabengele, Dylan Windler, Shamorie Ponds, Dedric Lawson, Killian Tillie & Ethan Happ.

I'd say 3-4 of those guys are
Spoiler:
sure things to be above average NBA players
-- a couple of them could
Spoiler:
turn into stars (any two you like).

We'd be
Spoiler:
the envy of the league.

Too many rookies. Four of them are projected to be Centers. :D Too many guys that need to learn the NBA on and off the court. I'd say any more than 3 your pushing it. Maybe 4 with a strong culture. Of course don't have that either.

So the 6th for Boston for their 14, 22, 51 would be fine by me. I think Clarke is off the board by then. Bitadze may still be there.

At 22 I'd probably lean Windler over Kabengele since SF is a need.

At 51, I'd be thrilled with Ponds or Happ.

Thing is "7" is a mystical number. Things organized around "7" always work better than expected. If it were 6 it would definitely be a problem, tho. 6 rookies is @ 2 too many (or else 1 too few, obviously).

The other reason to start at 7 is so you can be pushed back to 3: Clarke falls to 14, Windler at 22, then Ponds at 51. Lawson goes undrafted, & we sign him post-draft. ...Wait a minute, somehow I got back to 4 rookies. Let me work on it some more....


7 is the number of the mystic! I'm a 7 life path and I'm deep into mysticism and the esoteric.

7 draft picks though sounds like a daycare! :lol:

Position also matters. I wouldn't take more than 2 guys at the same position. More than 1 is probably pushing it unless they can potentially play together.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1593 » by payitforward » Tue May 7, 2019 6:48 pm

That's what you do in daycare... you learn to play together.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1594 » by payitforward » Tue May 7, 2019 7:00 pm

Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:All the same, I'm still inclined to trade down from 6 if that's where we are.... For example ...Could we trade our # 6 to Boston for their #s 14, 22 & 51? Is that reasonable, given that Boston will only be able to absorb one rookie this year?...

...the 6th for Boston for their 14, 22, 51 would be fine by me. ... Bitadze may still be there.

At 22 I'd probably lean Windler ...At 51, I'd be thrilled with Ponds or Happ.

So, then, 2 questions:

1. Is that a reasonable trade? I.e. #6 for #s14, 22 & 51? Something it would be reasonable for Boston (a team in a very different position from ours) to do?

2. Is anyone likely to be there at #6 whom you'd rather have than all 3 of Bitadze, Windler & Ponds? I think you've said Garland. Given the little time he's had to show himself on the court even at the college level, are you sure you'd take him instead of this trade? Anyone else?
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,582
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1595 » by Ruzious » Wed May 8, 2019 5:41 pm

The lottery is on Tuesday. Tick... tock.

Washington Wizards
On stage: Raul Fernandez (vice chairman)
Lottery room: Tommy Sheppard (senior VP of basketball operations)
Top-four odds: 37.2%
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,176
And1: 22,593
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1596 » by nate33 » Wed May 8, 2019 8:08 pm

payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:All the same, I'm still inclined to trade down from 6 if that's where we are.... For example ...Could we trade our # 6 to Boston for their #s 14, 22 & 51? Is that reasonable, given that Boston will only be able to absorb one rookie this year?...

...the 6th for Boston for their 14, 22, 51 would be fine by me. ... Bitadze may still be there.

At 22 I'd probably lean Windler ...At 51, I'd be thrilled with Ponds or Happ.

So, then, 2 questions:

1. Is that a reasonable trade? I.e. #6 for #s14, 22 & 51? Something it would be reasonable for Boston (a team in a very different position from ours) to do?

2. Is anyone likely to be there at #6 whom you'd rather have than all 3 of Bitadze, Windler & Ponds? I think you've said Garland. Given the little time he's had to show himself on the court even at the college level, are you sure you'd take him instead of this trade? Anyone else?

I don't like the trade. I don't mind trading down, but once you get below 20, it's a total crapshoot. And picks below 45 are no better than undrafted walk-ons.

I might trade our #6 for the 14, 20 and 22, but not for the 14, 22 and 51.

I also don't like Windler, at least not in the 1st round. His stats are horrendous if you just look at the 6 games he played against decent competion (SRS in the top 100). His overall numbers are good because he's old and he padded his stats against the glorified high school teams of the Ohio Valley Conference.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,176
And1: 22,593
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1597 » by nate33 » Wed May 8, 2019 9:50 pm

nate33 wrote:picks below 45 are no better than undrafted walk-ons.

I said this in a previous post as an offhand comment, but it's actually something worth revisiting in depth.

We've had a GM frustrate us so much by selling away 2nd round picks, that we've gotten to the point where I think we overvalue 2nd round picks, particularly late ones. Basketballreference has a search function that allows you to run filters of draft picks. And after researching it a bit, I'd like to reiterate what I said before: picks after 45 are next to worthless.

Here is a screen of the best late 2nd round draft picks (45th or later) from 2006-15. Basically, I wanted to cover the last 10 years, but didn't think it was fair to look at the last three drafts because those guys haven't had enough time to develop. My criteria was 5000+ total minutes played, and then I ranked them by WS for their career.

Image

Only 16 players even met the 5000 minutes criteria, and most of them were waived at some point and slummed in the D-League for a while before signing as a vet minimum free agent and finding their footing with a new team.

The only players who were either traded for tangible value or stuck around for a 2nd contract bigger than the vet minimum were Millsap, Gasol, Dragic, Thomas, O'Quinn, Powell and Clarkson. Seven guys in 10 years from 2006 to 2015. Seven guys out of 160 draft picks. Everyone else failed. And honestly, only four of those 7 actually mattered for any length of time. And the two legit stars: Gasol and Millsap, were found 12 years ago. There hasn't been a really good late pick since then except for Isaiah's one-hit-wonder season.

If, instead of using that late pick, a team sold the pick and signed an undrafted free agent, chances are they would do just as well. Here's a list of active undrafted free agents that have done well:

Robert Covington
Joe Inglis
Wesley Matthews
Jose Barea
Kent Bazemore
Jeremy Lin
Ish Smith
Aron Baynes
Jose Calderon
Tyler Johnson
Boban Marjanovic
Seth Curry

And that's just the undrafted guys. There's also the option of signing castoffs from other teams hoping they can turn it around with a change of scenery. There are tons of pretty good guys that were discovered as vet minimum free agents, guys like Hassan Whiteside, Patrick Beverley, Spencer Dinwiddie, P.J. Tucker, etc. Some of the more successful late 2nd round draft picks in the first list above, like Danny Green and E'twaun Moore, were obtained as vet-minimum guys after being cast off by the team that drafted them.

So let's not put to much value in those late 2nd round picks. The #34 pick is one thing, but the #51 pick is essentially worthless.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,646
And1: 9,119
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1598 » by payitforward » Thu May 9, 2019 2:02 am

It's "essentially worthless" unless you use it to draft Monte Morris, whereupon you have one of the best young point guards in the league. & if one could project players accurately, you would always prefer to draft those undrafted guys you mention than compete to sign them post-draft.

Still, the numbers you cite speak for themselves. At the same time, to me at least it looks like your gleaning from them is imperfect.

Darius Miller was picked by NO in 2012 & has been there ever since. He's logged @5200 minutes. He made $2.2m this year. He's no great shakes, but I'd say NO has gotten value out of the pick, wouldn't you?

Moreover, the important question is how good the players are: Isaiah Thomas? Patrick Mills? Ramon Sessions?

To be sure, late-picked guys more often fall victim to roster numbers than those picked earlier. But, I'd say the more important question is what kinds of players are available at that point in the draft? After all, R1 picks also move on during their rookie contracts. As I say, the question is what kind of player can you get late in R2? & equally important is how much that player costs you.

Consider the following list of 10 pretty bad players: Stromile Swift, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, Michael Beasley, Hasheem Thabeet, Evan Turner, Derrick Williams, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Jabari Parker, Brandon Ingram.

Those are 10 of the 17 guys picked #2 in the draft from 2000-2016. More than 60% of the players taken second in the draft. &, because they were picked early, they cost more on their rookie contracts & often make a ton of $$ no matter how badly they play (case in point: Jabari Parker, who made $20m this year).

Consider as well the following. Could one expect, typically, to trade the #4 pick in the draft for the #11 pick & the #21 pick in the same draft? I'd say so.

Suppose we construct a thought experiment: in each draft from 2010-17 I have the #4 pick. For the pick I can have the best player taken from 4-10 in that draft, whoever we agree that player is. Alternatively, I can exchange that #4 pick for the #11 & #21 picks. With the #11 pick, I can take whoever was the best player taken from 11-20 in that draft, & with the #21 pick I can take whoever was the best player taken from 21-30, again in that same draft. & again anyone we agree is the best guy.

In how many years do you think it would be worth making the trade vs. how many years would it not? First off the top of your head, then after checking.

(Note that this is a mental model designed to illustrate how value changes down the draft numbers. I.e. to determine what's more valuable. Obviously it would not usually be practical to actually do this, as there wouldn't be a trade partner.)

I'll put my answer in a spoiler:
Spoiler:
It would be an excellent idea in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 & 2017. It would be a poor idea in 2010 & 2012. In short, yes in 3/4 of these drafts.
Now... what if it were the same except that for that #4 w/ the same restrictions you got the #11 with the same restrictions & the #31, which you could use to pick anyone taken in R2 or who went undrafted. A tougher test to be sure! Would it ever be sensible?

I'll put my answer in a spoiler:
Spoiler:
Once again, yes in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 & 2017. No again in 2010. Almost certainly no in 2012 -- but it's actually a lot closer than the previous case, because, even though people think it's impossible, in fact there were much better players in R2 that year than in the last 1/3 of R1.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,176
And1: 22,593
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1599 » by nate33 » Thu May 9, 2019 3:17 am

payitforward wrote:It's "essentially worthless" unless you use it to draft Monte Morris, whereupon you have one of the best young point guards in the league. & if one could project players accurately, you would always prefer to draft those undrafted guys you mention than compete to sign them post-draft.

Still, the numbers you cite speak for themselves. At the same time, to me at least it looks like your gleaning from them is imperfect.

Darius Miller was picked by NO in 2012 & has been there ever since. He's logged @5200 minutes. He made $2.2m this year. He's no great shakes, but I'd say NO has gotten value out of the pick, wouldn't you?

Moreover, the important question is how good the players are: Isaiah Thomas? Patrick Mills? Ramon Sessions?

To be sure, late-picked guys more often fall victim to roster numbers than those picked earlier. But, I'd say the more important question is what kinds of players are available at that point in the draft? After all, R1 picks also move on during their rookie contracts. As I say, the question is what kind of player can you get late in R2? & equally important is how much that player costs you.

Consider the following list of 10 pretty bad players: Stromile Swift, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, Michael Beasley, Hasheem Thabeet, Evan Turner, Derrick Williams, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Jabari Parker, Brandon Ingram.

Those are 10 of the 17 guys picked #2 in the draft from 2000-2016. More than 60% of the players taken second in the draft. &, because they were picked early, they cost more on their rookie contracts & often make a ton of $$ no matter how badly they play (case in point: Jabari Parker, who made $20m this year).

Consider as well the following. Could one expect, typically, to trade the #4 pick in the draft for the #11 pick & the #21 pick in the same draft? I'd say so.

Suppose we construct a thought experiment: in each draft from 2010-17 I have the #4 pick. For the pick I can have the best player taken from 4-10 in that draft, whoever we agree that player is. Alternatively, I can exchange that #4 pick for the #11 & #21 picks. With the #11 pick, I can take whoever was the best player taken from 11-20 in that draft, & with the #21 pick I can take whoever was the best player taken from 21-30, again in that same draft. & again anyone we agree is the best guy.

In how many years do you think it would be worth making the trade vs. how many years would it not? First off the top of your head, then after checking.

(Note that this is a mental model designed to illustrate how value changes down the draft numbers. I.e. to determine what's more valuable. Obviously it would not usually be practical to actually do this, as there wouldn't be a trade partner.)

I'll put my answer in a spoiler:
Spoiler:
It would be an excellent idea in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 & 2017. It would be a poor idea in 2010 & 2012. In short, yes in 3/4 of these drafts.
Now... what if it were the same except that for that #4 w/ the same restrictions you got the #11 with the same restrictions & the #31, which you could use to pick anyone taken in R2 or who went undrafted. A tougher test to be sure! Would it ever be sensible?

I'll put my answer in a spoiler:
Spoiler:
Once again, yes in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 & 2017. No again in 2010. Almost certainly no in 2012 -- but it's actually a lot closer than the previous case, because, even though people think it's impossible, in fact there were much better players in R2 that year than in the last 1/3 of R1.

I don't dispute your theory that trading down from the mid lottery to get multiple picks in the teens and 20's can make sense. I'm just saying that the trade down for more picks thing only works up to a point. Once you get past the middle of the 2nd round, the pickings are pretty slim. I'd rather have the 35th pick than trade it for the 49th and 53rd pick.

For every Monte Morris you can find, I can find you a Thomas Bryant.
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 24,148
And1: 7,910
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1600 » by Dat2U » Thu May 9, 2019 4:12 am

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:...the 6th for Boston for their 14, 22, 51 would be fine by me. ... Bitadze may still be there.

At 22 I'd probably lean Windler ...At 51, I'd be thrilled with Ponds or Happ.

So, then, 2 questions:

1. Is that a reasonable trade? I.e. #6 for #s14, 22 & 51? Something it would be reasonable for Boston (a team in a very different position from ours) to do?

2. Is anyone likely to be there at #6 whom you'd rather have than all 3 of Bitadze, Windler & Ponds? I think you've said Garland. Given the little time he's had to show himself on the court even at the college level, are you sure you'd take him instead of this trade? Anyone else?

I don't like the trade. I don't mind trading down, but once you get below 20, it's a total crapshoot. And picks below 45 are no better than undrafted walk-ons.

I might trade our #6 for the 14, 20 and 22, but not for the 14, 22 and 51.

I also don't like Windler, at least not in the 1st round. His stats are horrendous if you just look at the 6 games he played against decent competion (SRS in the top 100). His overall numbers are good because he's old and he padded his stats against the glorified high school teams of the Ohio Valley Conference.


In most drafts I would not like it. In this draft where there's Cam Reddish going mid lottery and Goga Bitadze going in the 20s, it's probably a decent idea. Maybe as you suggest, you can ask for more. I would agree the #51 pick has minimal trade value.

As far as Windler. I recognize this issue. If was the first thing announcers brought up when I watched him play for the first time. I would be more concerned if his game was based on muscle. Maybe the rebounding numbers are inflated a bit it he has an above average skill level for a wing. A small sample size where he didnt shoot well doesn't dissuade me. I saw a guy that can create off the bounce and score at all 3 levels efficiently and has a good nose for the ball.

Return to Washington Wizards