Nothing Thread--only one opinion counts-LOCK ME

[Spence]

I completely agree with Dat2U on this. I don't understand what people expect from this roster. I think the team may have actually over-achieved this season, considering the quality and youth of the roster, as well as injuries.

Kevin Seraphin is going to save this team? Maybe in 5 years, if everything goes right and the team gets a bit of un-Wizards-like luck.

[hands11]

My guess is that Wall won't be elite until his 3rd season, at age 22. That's still quicker than most other pass-first PG's in this league.

I think you're right in your prediction that Wall can be elite by his third year, but I think by next year we'll see Wall do some amazing things as well--possibly even challenge Ray Allen and Joe Johnson for the 4th guard spot in the All Star game. A gradual progression makes sense. Even Rose's progression was gradual--it took him 3 seasons to become dominant, and until this year, I personally never considered him a true All-Star, due to his inability to be a game changer. Obviously, that has changed in 2010-2011.

I think Wall an easily average 18-10 next year, which will be a reasonable progression for a future superstar.

Heck, I would take the 9 assist and 15 pts that he is doing this year and be happy if he did it at a better shooting percentage and with better D.

No one has done what Wall has done at his age. That makes him already elite. I just hope he can keep it up.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=ast&c1comp=gt&c1val=8&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=40&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ast_per_g

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Flip Saunders has interior defenders on his bench and in D League.
He runs with jump shooters like Blatche and Yi instead of allowing Seraphin or McGee to get shots. Flip
has a lot to do with why this isn't a playoff team in the weak east.

Maybe because Seraphin is garbage right now? I know some are excited about his toughness and physicality but right now all he can do is set a hard pick and foul hard. He's still one of the rawest players in the entire NBA. Seraphin quite possibly one of the worst offensive players in the league right now. I know there's hope for him but that's all it is at this stage, hope.

Flip has very little to do with this clusterf*ck of a roster. When your #1 scoring option is Nick Young, then you should know it's going to be a very long year. If anything, considering Wall's injuries (and everyone else's injuries as well) along with Blatche's 'Kwame like' regression, it's amazing that this team might actually get to 20 wins.

I respect the hell out of you but I've never disagreed with you more than your take on the current roster. Once Blatche got fat, Gil struggled and got dumped and Wall got nicked up, the die was cast. It was an incredibly thin roster from the get go. It would have taken the perfect storm for this team to be mediocre and it never came close to happening. We've likely got the roster with the lowest b-ball IQ collectively in the NBA. I wouldn't have a problem blowing up every single piece on this roster save for Wall if it got us a 2nd quality NBA player to build around.

You subtract Wall, add in Cousins and some mediocre prospects and it would even be worse. If Cousins can argue, yell at and disrespect Sacramento's coaching staff and teammates on a consistent basis, imagine how he would act towards Flip and guys like McGee & Blatche. How long before Cousins would have taken a swing a player or even worse, a coach? IMO, we got the right guy to build around. Wall isn't perfect but he isn't a finished product either.

Dat, I still say Cousins is the better player. I said Wall would struggle and Cousins would dominate. Well?

This roster is much better than you think IMHO. Shakur can win some games Wall would not. Livingston ran the team better than Wall has this season. Wall being made a team captain was an egregious mistake by Flip Saunders. Seraphin is raw as heck the same way Booker looked like garbage in November. If a player struggles offensively in one system or he commits a few fouls is that the sum total of the player's existence?

Remember when Seraphin first came to the Wizards? In his press conference he did not speak English but in response to his interpreter he smiled and with his huge fist punched his hand. He knows what he's good at, Dat. I know what he can do. Scare the mess out of guys--even Cousins.

My idea of what any coach or leader is they should be able to adjust to their personnel and adapt. Doug Collins has done so. Flip has miserably failed to do so.

Seraphin moves his feet well. He scores on dunks and has a sweet arsenal of hook shots. Like Booker, he is s ferocious dunker and an intimidating dude. Flip plays certain veterans and controls things in a way that stifles creativity. Pounding that rock has been a huge failure IMO.

All the game where two finesse bigs got shoved around it's like he forgot about Booker with Seraphin in an early season win. Wittman did in one game what Flip hadn't tried.

Dat, the problems have been roles of Hinrich/Wall, overplaying Blatche, losing small, losing soft, losing with Armstrong, losing with Yi, never playing Martin with Young, McGee, and Wall; severely underutilizing McGee, ignoring the obvious superior overall PG play of Shakur....

The roster has lots of holes but this team should have 10 or more additional wins.

[hands11]

Flip Saunders has interior defenders on his bench and in D League.
He runs with jump shooters like Blatche and Yi instead of allowing Seraphin or McGee to get shots. Flip has a lot to do with why this isn't a playoff team in the weak east.

We will never know the master plan for this team but we do know that Ted likes to build through the draft. Most are clear on that.

As someone who said this year would key on how quickly they got Seraphin up to speed, I hear what your saying. If you wanted to try to win this year, you needed muscle in the paint and most knew that wasn't going to be McGee this year and maybe never. If they wanted to win this year, I predicted McGee would loose the starting center spot at some point.

But as much as I don't want to believe it because I want the team I follow to try to win every game..was this all baked in the cake to start with ? Play McGee and a rookie PG and learn while loosing. Gain experience and get one more high pick.

Start your rookie PG.
Give him the captain hat
Walk the line with Gil just long enough to look good to the outside world until Gil bails on you.
Start McGee so he gets experience
Bring your power players along slowly so they are ready to finish the year on an up note with few Ws

I'm not saying all of this year has gone exactly as they have planned step by step but at the same time, I don't think they really wanted to win to much this year. They wanted another high pick and they wanted to bring along players like Seraphin and Booker behind closed doors and slowly because they plan on them being around. They want to evaluate players like Armstrong, Yi etc because they didn't know if they would.

They seriously focused on developing Nick because they needed to know what they had..THIS YEAR.
They did that in spades.

I think they are meeting their goals. They should finish the year on an upswing and they have developed players and evaluated others.

This is the patience many here wanted. They didn't want to win to much to soon and be stuck in never never land.

Consider this...what you call suck may actually be THE MASTER PLAN.
It's hardly a stretch to believe that.

Ted likes to build through the draft. Most are clear on that.

[hands11]

I completely agree with Dat2U on this. I don't understand what people expect from this roster. I think the team may have actually over-achieved this season, considering the quality and youth of the roster, as well as injuries.

Kevin Seraphin is going to save this team? Maybe in 5 years, if everything goes right and the team gets a bit of un-Wizards-like luck.

Agreed. Cousin would have been a nightmare here. As hard as this organization is trying to build a new culture, Cousins would have been a bad discussion if that is part of your goals. One older problem out in Gil and one new young problem in.

Wall was the right choice over Cousins for the future of this franchise. So was moving Gil for Lewis. If Dray is your worst problem child, that's not so bad. He is easily movable and there is still a chance that he can make it if he stays.

This organization is in good shape for the future.

[DCZards]

Dat, I still say Cousins is the better player. I said Wall would struggle and Cousins would dominate. Well?

If Wall is "struggling" and still putting up the kind of numbers he's been putting up recently, the future is very, very bright. I expect both Wall and Cousins (assuming he grows up) to be dominant players. I personally prefer having the dominant player who has the ball in his hands most of the time---a la Kobe, Lebron, D. Rose, D. Willams, etc. That would be John Wall.

[Dat2U]

Dat, I still say Cousins is the better player. I said Wall would struggle and Cousins would dominate. Well?

Exactly what's your definition of domination?

DeMarcus Cousins
Per 36

Code: Select all

MP   FG  FGA   FG% 3P%  FT  FTA  FT% ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1415 7.1 16.5 .434 .273 4.2 6.2 .676 3.6 7.3 10.9 2.4 1.2 1.0 3.9 5.3 18.6

Advanced

Code: Select all

MP   PER   TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg WS WS/48
1415 14.9 .483 .436 11.0 24.0 17.3 11.7  1.7  2.1 16.8 28.0   95  105 0.8 0.028

John Wall
Per 36

Code: Select all

MP   FG  FGA   FG% 3P%  FT  FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1550 5.2 12.8 .409 .310 3.6 4.8 .746 0.3 3.8 4.1 8.7 1.6 0.4 3.6 2.5 14.7

Advanced

Code: Select all

MP   PER   TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg WS WS/48
1550 15.5 .491 .433  1.0 12.4  6.6 39.4  2.4  0.9 19.3 23.0   99  109 1.3 0.041

Cousins puts up nice per 36 totals but his FG% & eFG% are brutal for a low post center. People love to bash Wall for being turnover prone and consistently complain about his ball handling but Cousins turns the ball over even more! Wall's offensive & defensive ratings are higher. Wall has a higher Win Score.

Cousins has been playing so well lately that the only game Sacramento has won in February was the one Cousins DIDN'T play in.

[montestewart]

^
Isn't the lower defensive rating the desirable one, in which case Cousins scores better?

Generally agree, both look good and sometimes even great in some areas, bad in others (and I admit I've only seen Cousins play a few times). Neither seems to be far outclassing the other. Cousins might become a better rebounder, shotblocker, and defender, shoot at a higher percentage, and become less turnover prone. Wall may become a better defender and jump shooter, and become less turnover prone. Wall is driving and dishing now and, based on the stats and what I've seen, he seems to know better now how to use his speed than Cousins knows how to use his size. Not to mention Wall rarely gets into foul trouble. Time will settle this debate, but I would rather have Wall now.

[montestewart]

PS: CCJ, I liked Shakur too and wouldn't mind seeing him again, but he played all of 56 minutes in six games. He's 26 years old and, other than maybe adjusting a little to the NBA, this is his game that we've seen, while Wall is still developing. When Earl the Squirrel showed up last year, he looked great in blasts too, but c'mon. This team had Mike James starting at PG two years ago and now we've got John Wall. Mike James. John Wall. Think about it.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Dat, I still say Cousins is the better player. I said Wall would struggle and Cousins would dominate. Well?

If Wall is "struggling" and still putting up the kind of numbers he's been putting up recently, the future is very, very bright. I expect both Wall and Cousins (assuming he grows up) to be dominant players. I personally prefer having the dominant player who has the ball in his hands most of the time---a la Kobe, Lebron, D. Rose, D. Willams, etc. That would be John Wall.

+1

Context of my response to Dat was projections of Wall being a best-ever type player by him and a Cousins is not to be around others and he can't play--he wouldn't touch him.

Wall does have a very bright future. I think Cousins does, too.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

PS: CCJ, I liked Shakur too and wouldn't mind seeing him again, but he played all of 56 minutes in six games. He's 26 years old and, other than maybe adjusting a little to the NBA, this is his game that we've seen, while Wall is still developing. When Earl the Squirrel showed up last year, he looked great in blasts too, but c'mon. This team had Mike James starting at PG two years ago and now we've got John Wall. Mike James. John Wall. Think about it.

Context: I want the coach to approach each game with the idea of giving team best chance to win that game. Shakur's first two games he was beyond pretty good. He was devastatingly effective. Then he apparently was injured but I don't know how serious. Then he played virtually no more even after he was apparently recovered.

My thoughts are Wall could be better playing 32 minutes or some games 24 and others 40--but with the Wizards winning twice as often. Shakur seemed better than Hinrich. Flip, however, kept playing three guards with Hinrich sharing the court with Wall and Nick. He played some guys heavy minutes and Shakur and Martin virtually none of the time.

When Gilbert was a rookie, Musselman often used Earl Boykins. Shakur could be that for Wall. Earl was a closer and a halfcourt floor general. Gil was just young. Right now Shakur lets the game come to him and he defends. Playing him 15 minutes a game wouldn't hurt Wall at all.

[Dat2U]

Dat, I still say Cousins is the better player. I said Wall would struggle and Cousins would dominate. Well?

If Wall is "struggling" and still putting up the kind of numbers he's been putting up recently, the future is very, very bright. I expect both Wall and Cousins (assuming he grows up) to be dominant players. I personally prefer having the dominant player who has the ball in his hands most of the time---a la Kobe, Lebron, D. Rose, D. Willams, etc. That would be John Wall.

+1

Context of my response to Dat was projections of Wall being a best-ever type player by him and a Cousins is not to be around others and he can't play--he wouldn't touch him.

Wall does have a very bright future. I think Cousins does, too.

Cousins numbers look good superficially but a low post center shooting less than 44% from the floor is not impressive. Nor is his high TO rate or foul rate. Those are red flags to me. Cousins is getting plenty of opportunities and no one doubts his physical talent and skills but I think its a stretch to say he playing particularly well at this point.

But the book on a player isn't written in one season. We'll certainly know more about each player in season 2 and 3. The tale tell sign will be how much each player improves over time.

[TGW]

They'll both improve in skill and ability. Only one will improve in intangibles -- leadership, likeability, coachability, etc. The other one is going to regress.

I feel bad for the GM that has to make the choice on whether to pay Cousins big money or not.

[DallasShalDune]

Wall against two top five teams has been beast. This is a fantastic sign--and it is worth mentioning we were COMPETITIVE! That hasn't happened very often against good teams this year, if you exclude the Boston game.

[theboomking]

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4237/john-wall
Over the last 10 games, Wall is averaging 18.5ppg, 5.0rpg, 7.8 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.6bog, on .455% shooting in 35.9 minutes. He has pushed his scoring average up to 15.5, has a PER of 15.58.

Cousins has a lower TS% than Wall, posting 48% vs 49%. His PER is lower at 14.51. Despite playing center and having a massive 9'5" standing reach, Cousins is only shooting .429% to Wall's .410%. Cousins scores less points with 13.8 vs 15.5/game, and has less steals plus blocks. Cousins obviously has more rebounds than Wall with 8.3/g vs 4.3. Cousins obviously dishes less assists per game with 1.9 vs 9.0. Very notably, Cousins has been posting his numbers in 27.2 mpg vs Wall's 35.9. Cousins has also been benched twice this year for behavioral issues.

I would love it if we were able to obtain Cousins, but right now, they each rate similarly as prospects to how they rated before the draft. Wall has off the charts physical skills for a point guard, great court vision, is very competitive, makes those on the court with him better, and is a high character guy. Cousins is very talented. Long but not overly athletic, and a head case.

Wall is the clear choice. I doubt there are 3 teams in the league that would take Cousins over Wall. What has changed in their evaluations since the draft, where Wall went 4 slots ahead of Cousins?

[Dat2U]

Our much maligned Andray Blatche, aka the scourge, aka the team killer, aka DC's Most Hated, has a higher PER, a higher TS%, is far less turnover prone, has a higher AST rate and is a lower usage player than the chosen one, the great DeMarcus Cousins. Both do have the same number of fights against teammates but Cousins has surged ahead in team suspensions.

At least Cousins has a bigger impact on his team. The Kings are a whopping 4.7 points better when Cousins is OFF the court while the Wizards are a measly 3.0 points better with Blatche ON the court.

Obviously this tell us we need to do everything in our power to dump Blatche at all costs and give up everything under the sun to acquire Cousins.

If we had only drafted Cousins instead of Wall.

[DMVleGeND]

Our much maligned Andray Blatche, aka the scourge, aka the team killer, aka DC's Most Hated, has a higher PER, a higher TS%, is far less turnover prone, has a higher AST rate and is a lower usage player than the chosen one, the great DeMarcus Cousins. Both do have the same number of fights against teammates but Cousins has surged ahead in team suspensions.

At least Cousins has a bigger impact on his team. The Kings are a whopping 4.7 points better when Cousins is OFF the court while the Wizards are a measly 3.0 points better with Blatche ON the court.

Obviously this tell us we need to do everything in our power to dump Blatche at all costs and give up everything under the sun to acquire Cousins.

If we had only drafted Cousins instead of Wall.

[tontoz]

Wall has attacked the rim on the break all year but over the past month he has been attacking in the half court set as well and that has made a huge difference in his game.

Before this month he was very passive on offense, not looking to shoot or drive but mainly looking for the open man. Now he is playing the way Westbrook plays, looking to drive every chance he gets and finishing well inside.

His defensive effort has improved a lot also. He looks like a different player than the one i was watching in the first few weeks after the Gil trade.

[theboomking]

Wall has attacked the rim on the break all year but over the past month he has been attacking in the half court set as well and that has made a huge difference in his game.

Before this month he was very passive on offense, not looking to shoot or drive but mainly looking for the open man. Now he is playing the way Westbrook plays, looking to drive every chance he gets and finishing well inside.

His defensive effort has improved a lot also. He looks like a different player than the one i was watching in the first few weeks after the Gil trade.

I agree here. Beyond the numbers, Wall just looks like a different player. In December and January, Wall looked like a rookie with a lot of promise. In February, he has often been the best player on the floor. He has been penetrating at will, and the difference on defense has been huge. I just watched the Dallas game on my DVR, and Wall was really impressive. He scored 24 points, almost all of which driving to the basket, but it was his intensity that impressed me. He had offensive rebounds at the rim, the impressive block out of bounds in the last 2 minutes, and was still diving for loose balls and trying to get a steal to win the game in the waning seconds. I really think he has the mental makeup and intensity to be a perennial All Star and top 2 player on a championship team.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Our much maligned Andray Blatche, aka the scourge, aka the team killer, aka DC's Most Hated, has a higher PER, a higher TS%, is far less turnover prone, has a higher AST rate and is a lower usage player than the chosen one, the great DeMarcus Cousins. Both do have the same number of fights against teammates but Cousins has surged ahead in team suspensions.

At least Cousins has a bigger impact on his team. The Kings are a whopping 4.7 points better when Cousins is OFF the court while the Wizards are a measly 3.0 points better with Blatche ON the court.

Obviously this tell us we need to do everything in our power to dump Blatche at all costs and give up everything under the sun to acquire Cousins.

If we had only drafted Cousins instead of Wall.

The choice was never Cousins for Wall. It was more like Cousins and Igoudala for Wall's rights and filler like Howard, Yi, or Thornton.

It was more like Cousins, Babbitt, and a pick for the rights to Wall.

The choice really was whether to parlay Wall into better vets plus Cousins and a pick. I never said Cousins at #1 even though I (incorrectly) predicted he would be the best player in this draft.

I still would take Cousins for Blatche, and you would too, Dat.