Last second game thread Wizzles vs Grizzles 8PM Friday 2/1

[tontoz]

They were not brought in to "win now". They were brought to win more.

Anyone want to take a shot at translating this into a coherent thought?

[jivelikenice]

When did I blame the D? I just said its not its all cracked up to be. You became fixated on saying its all offense related and I was pointing out that the D suffers its own set of breakdowns late in ball games. Maybe you ignored the 100 other posts where I've wrote about how much I hate Wittman's offensive system.

[tontoz]

When did I blame the D?

It's laughable that you think a team can't get any shot they want, whenever they want it against us.

[montestewart]

They were not brought in to "win now". They were brought to win more.

Anyone want to take a shot at translating this into a coherent thought?

They will produce more wins later, when their contracts expire?

[jivelikenice]

LOL. You're a funny dude. Here are the factors I referenced that are to blame,in no particular order.

1. Randy's offensive system. Post up first, second, and third. Our two best guards are In an absolute funk playing this way, there's no spacing, we're physically slower then our opponents minus Wall, and we're playing even slower recently

2. Late game defense. How many times today have I said in late game situations teams can get the look they want. That's what my quote was referencing. But just like the stats you pull, you like to pull quotes that support your argument versus giving the whole picture...so no surprise there

3. Lack of talent. We don't have a stretch 4 on the roster. James singleton would be an upgrade to Jan, Booker, or Singleton....we only have two good shooters on the team. The focal point of our roster is a 30 yr old Injury prone center who is averaging 12 ppl and shooting 47%. Our guards are best suited to play in a spread system but we don't have the personnel to play that way. I think we should still try by mixing parts as Hands and Nate suggested, and not base who starts on salary....

[hands11]

Some movement without the ball might help. Nobody thinks Jan is a good offensive player, but he has ball iq and knows how to not stand around. I'm sure a lot of the guys here have played pick up or organized ball. When ppl stop moving and the game slows to a crawl with no flow, its tough to get any offensive flow going. That's where we're at now. Sometimes less is more, if that less does the little things to open up the floor and game. I'm not saying Jan could do it, but we have 11 wins so why not see if he can?

In the minutes Ves has played this season, I have not seen any improvement in offense. I have played basketball for 45 years (both organized and pickup), and agree the ball movement is very important. However, I also know that playing with someone that is not an offensive threat at all just makes it that much harder for the other 4 people on a team to score (especially when the other 4 people are not particularly good on offense either). Its like playing 4 against 5 on offense or worse if you have other below average offensive players.

Jive, I think you are just looking at it as "the grass is greener" on the other side without really considering the talent of the players we have. However, I know I am not going to convice you otherwise and so I'll stop. Besides,I need to get off the computer and spend some time with my son who is now craving my attention. Have a good weekend.

As someone who played PG, you know what I did with players like that ? I drove, kicked the ball out to them and yelled at them to shoot it. I would talk to them. I would tell them I am going to get them the ball and that I didn't care if they made it or not. I didn't force feed them a lot mind you but I made sure I was getting them involved and that they have a green light from me to take that mid range.

I did this for a couple of reasons. One, those were the guys usually doing the dirty work and I wanted them to be motivated and have fun. Secondly, I love an underdog story. Third, it helps them get better. If you don't shoot in games you will never learn to shoot in games. First you have to get through the fear factor. Most these guys can hit ok when just shooting around. So I would find them a similar opportunity. I would drive at their defender and draw them to me then box them out and give them the open shot and yell.. SHOOT IT.

Jan is never going to get better at shooting in the game unless he starts to shoot in the game. That is on your PGs to make happen when you are talking about a player that is gun shy.

[tontoz]

2. Late game defense. How many times today have I said in late game situations teams can get the look they want. That's what my quote was referencing. But just like the stats you pull, you like to pull quotes that support your argument versus giving the whole picture...so no surprise there

.

So other teams can get any shot they want late in games and the offense sucks late in games yet the Wizards scoring differential in the 4th is only - .1.

Uhh....ok

It is funny how you just make stuff up and pretend it is true. The Wizards are 14th in pace of play yet you say the slow pace helps the defense? WTF. At least i have stats from actual websites to back up my argument. I am not just making stuff up and pretending it is true.

[hands11]

Yes it is clear. We're playing a half court O that runs through Néne and we we can't get stops when we need it. The late game defensive breakdowns have been a constant in Wiz land and hasn't changed. How many times have we watched an ugly 4th quarter unfold, only to have the opponent stretch the lead out to 6 - 8 pts or so in the last couple of minutes? It happens all the time...that isn't a coincidence! The O is a problem too. But you like to put a lot on John while you feed me full season stats of our 4th quarter O even though John missed most of the season. What has been the 4th quarter offensive constant though? Néne and playing inside out....

Late game defensive breakdowns are a figment of your imagination. The Wizards are top 10 in defense and even better in the 4th quarter . It is not debatable.

Opponents have the advantage late in games because when they turn up their defense the Wizards offensive execution goes into the crapper.

You think the play calling has anything to do with that? I do. Just like that play Randy called to feed Nene in the post the other game when he already had 5 turnover and he got his 6th. That was an insanely stupid play to call and it likely cost them the game. Randy has lost a lot of games this year.

I agree with everyone who says a talent upgrade would help. Of course it would. But that doesn't mean they are getting the most from the talent they have. Hell, LA has talent but until they started to use it the right way, it looked like total crap.

Just by changing what they are doing they went from 1-6 to a 6-1 run.

Line ups and style matter.

[jivelikenice]

They were not brought in to "win now". They were brought to win more.

Anyone want to take a shot at translating this into a coherent thought?

It makes perfect sense. This group of vets were brought in to bring a blend of youth and experience to the roster. The hope was to win more now, while the young guys learn the NBA game. Win now suggest this is it....all hands on deck and we're putting all our chips in. That wasn't what they were doing. Okafor and Ariza are off the books after next yr. They hoped this group could blend together, win more, and maybe sneak into the playoffs....then add the final pieces in the next couple of years after the young players established themselves. This has been the message from Ted throughout.

Now he was wrong and they're much further away then he probably anticipated, but that was his message to the fans....

[tontoz]

They were not brought in to "win now". They were brought to win more.

Anyone want to take a shot at translating this into a coherent thought?

It makes perfect sense. This group of vets were brought in to bring a blend of youth and experience to the roster. The hope was to win more now, while the young guys learn the NBA game. Win now suggest this is it....all hands on deck and we're putting all our chips in. That wasn't what they were doing. Okafor and Ariza are off the books after next yr. They hoped this group could blend together, win more, and maybe sneak into the playoffs....then add the final pieces in the next couple of years after the young players established themselves. This has been the message from Ted throughout.

Now he was wrong and they're much further away then he probably anticipated, but that was his message to the fans....

So they aren't trying to win now, they are trying to win more now?

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

[jivelikenice]

2. Late game defense. How many times today have I said in late game situations teams can get the look they want. That's what my quote was referencing. But just like the stats you pull, you like to pull quotes that support your argument versus giving the whole picture...so no surprise there

.

So other teams can get any shot they want late in games and the offense sucks late in games yet the Wizards scoring differential in the 4th is only - .1.

Uhh....ok

It is funny how you just make stuff up and pretend it is true. The Wizards are 14th in pace of play yet you say the slow pace helps the defense? WTF. At least i have stats from actual websites to back up my argument. I am not just making stuff up and pretending it is true.

You may have stats, but you can't read or co comprehend apparently, which makes me now question how well you can even interpret stats. I said this post oriented game plan has been further emphasized as of late and you're citing full season pace stats. I asked for pace stats as of late. If what I'm seeing as of late is wrong, I'll admit it. You'te again fixated on how you interpreted something I said versus actually reading it. If you want to pretend a point I'm making and argue against that pretend point, be my guest.... let me know who wins the argument....

[jivelikenice]

So they aren't trying to win now, they are trying to win more now?

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

Yup, Hands comment made perfectly good sense and has been consistent with that the organization has said. (Although they're execution sucked)

The Skins goal this past yr was to win more...play meaningful games and be relevant. Build a foundation. The Ravens goal was to win now.....do you understand the difference? (Probably not since theres no stat that can show you the difference there )

[montestewart]

Last four games, definitely a negative trend, -3.3 in the 4th. Since Wall's return, +0.9 in the 4th.

[tontoz]

Speaking of reading comprehension you apparently don't even understand your own posts.

Our D is ok, but benefits by how slow we play. We're skewing the stats by slowing the game down to crawl, then have to read about how much better they are on D.

Nobody on this board up until that point had quoted any stats about the wizards defense late in games. They are talking about the games as a whole, as you were in this post.

You tried to make a connection between defense and pace of play when there is none. Defensive efficiency is measured based on 100 possessions. Pace is irrelevant.

[tontoz]

So they aren't trying to win now, they are trying to win more now?

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

Yup, Hands comment made perfectly good sense and has been consistent with that the organization has said. (Although they're execution sucked)

The Skins goal this past yr was to win more...play meaningful games and be relevant. Build a foundation. The Ravens goal was to win now.....do you understand the difference? (Probably not since theres no stat that can show you the difference there )

There is no difference. You can't win now without winning more now. That is just basic common sense.

Winning now doesnt mean winning a title now. I don't think anyone believe the Wizards were trying to win a title this year. I have no doubt you would like to use that position as a strawman though.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/2/2/3944220/wizards-vs-grizzlies-randy-wittman-coach

To be fair to Wittman, he didn't have the benefit of watching all 38 of those plays on tape before talking to the media. Also, he could have just been throwing out a soundbyte that made sense in theory without revealing anything too specific about his team's gameplan.

But if Wittman still thinks that the problem with the Wizards' offense on Friday was that they didn't pound the post enough, then I'm just going to have to disagree with him.

I think the Wizards should try to run more and to have two game plans, one for if Nene is feeling frisky and another for when he is gimpy. I think getting the ball inside is a good idea in general, but you can't force things. You have to take what the defense gives. If Wall can't make a three put Price in with Webster and play John at SG. John needs to RUN the offense. I think pounding it inside isn't going to be enough.

Randy should have mentioned the lack of rebounds as the problem last night. Nene only had 4 rebounds in 33 minutes. Seraphin had 2 in 20 minutes. Temple is in for energy and defense but he played 18 minutes and failed to rebound even one time.

[hands11]

They were not brought in to "win now". They were brought to win more.

Anyone want to take a shot at translating this into a coherent thought?

Hey Tontoz

How about we keep things above board instead of instigating me into starting round two. I really don't think that is fun for the board to have to suffer through. Deal.

You know exactly what that means. Its not all that hard to understand. Specially in the context of the rest of my post.

Win now implies we are a playoff team. Win more mean exactly that. Just like Ted said, we don't want to finish in the bottom again. Okafor and Trevor were brought in to stabilize the team so younger players like Wall, Beal, Kevin, etc. etc. to have professionals on the court with them. That helps you win more and it helps them develop. This was not a trade like the Celtics did putting RA, KG and PP together.

Now if everything worked out optimally, they would have had a playoff run but because of health and coaching, that isn't happening this year.

[tontoz]

Win now implies we are a playoff team.

So this team wouldn't make the playoffs if it was healthy? Are you saying they haven't been trying to sell us on this?

Why did they blow their capspace for 2 years if they weren't trying to make the playoffs? Why did they take on Nene's monster contract and $40 million left on Okariza?

[jivelikenice]

I may be "pretending" the offense is slowing down but we were scoring 100.6 ppg in Walls first 6 games back...and 90.3 in the last 6, starting with the Utah game which I referenced numerous times as when Wittman increased the dose of heavy post up through Néne (a pattern that has kept up and one that Wittman seems to want to keep up). Is that the only factor? No...Beals injury hurts as well. In those first six, Wall ran with the twos and played more aggressively, which is why a lot of ppl are suggested mixing the lineups....wait, I may have "pretended" up those stats from my "pretend" box scores....

[hands11]

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/2/2/3944220/wizards-vs-grizzlies-randy-wittman-coach

To be fair to Wittman, he didn't have the benefit of watching all 38 of those plays on tape before talking to the media. Also, he could have just been throwing out a soundbyte that made sense in theory without revealing anything too specific about his team's gameplan.

But if Wittman still thinks that the problem with the Wizards' offense on Friday was that they didn't pound the post enough, then I'm just going to have to disagree with him.

I think the Wizards should try to run more and to have two game plans, one for if Nene is feeling frisky and another for when he is gimpy. I think getting the ball inside is a good idea in general, but you can't force things. You have to take what the defense gives. If Wall can't make a three put Price in with Webster and play John at SG. John needs to RUN the offense. I think pounding it inside isn't going to be enough.

Randy should have mentioned the lack of rebounds as the problem last night. Nene only had 4 rebounds in 33 minutes. Seraphin had 2 in 20 minutes. Temple is in for energy and defense but he played 18 minutes and failed to rebound even one time.

I think several of us are focusing in on the same thing. Line ups. And how to best balance them to plays style that matches the players on the court.

For me. I say the two goals should be one that runs and is based on Wall and Crawford being ball dominate where they drive and dish. This would open up Crawford game again. He has been good this year when he can get involved and play his open style. And Wall is best when driving and getting to the line.

The other being a vet style half court that passes, plays inside out and hits corner threes. The one Randy forcing on both groups right now. That offense is should be lead by Price with Webster in the corner and Nene in the post.

Just seems like common sense to me.

Funny thing is this is what they did at the end of last year. when Nene was coming off the bench. This was what I called for them to do when healthy before the season even starter. Actually I think I might have suggested one combination that had Nene and Okafor coming off the bench. Seems like we are finally at that point. Question is, how many games will it take for Randy to figure out what he already figured out last year.

Sadly it will take more losing. At that point he can change to the message to this is all about developing players. Then he can move Nene to the bench. Then they will start winning more.

See that what I call bad coaching. Its when you stumble into the answer instead of being proactive about it. Hell, I don't care for the LAL coach but at least he had to balls to bring Gasol off the bench. And he makes 19M which is way more then Nene.