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Political Roundtable - Part VI

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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#161 » by doclinkin » Mon May 13, 2013 10:29 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I don't get the distinction. Don't want to argue over that point though, since you've given me a good idea. The one valid difference between guns and smoking is that, when you get cancer 20 years later, you have no idea whose smoke it was that gave you cancer. You correctly point out that it's much easier to identify who is responsible for a gun death. Thus the gun owners' insurance idea. I don't have a problem with requiring people to buy gun owners insurance, with the understanding that you have to pay a $7.5 million fine if the gun you purchase is used to kill someone (no matter whose fault it is). Let the market figure out how much that insurance should cost.

So you would have the option of paying for the insurance in a lump sum, say, $1,000 on purchase of the gun, or you could buy a policy where you pay $10 a month or whatever.

That's actually a much better solution than the pigouvian tax because there's less of an affordability issue.



I'd pondered about requiring gunowners insurance, as in car insurance, but bumped into a wall in figuring who would be the beneficiary for payout in case of gun misuse or accident.

Okay victim's families if the weapon was used in commission of crime, and suicide would negate the policy. But accident? Then too if you shoot a burglar and are convicted, or if you provoke a deadly encounter, his family wins an award. Suicide by homeowner. I dunno, seems there are any of a number of uncomfortable dead-ends in that labyrinth.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#162 » by Zonkerbl » Mon May 13, 2013 10:34 pm

Actually, why not have the money go into a buyback program? Or some combo: if your gone is stolen and used to kill someone else, money goes to next of kin. Cases where some innocent bystander is killed by your gun. Otherwise money goes into the fund.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#163 » by Induveca » Mon May 13, 2013 11:14 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Actually, why not have the money go into a buyback program? Or some combo: if your gone is stolen and used to kill someone else, money goes to next of kin. Cases where some innocent bystander is killed by your gun. Otherwise money goes into the fund.


Sounds like a good way to tie up the courts in perpetuity. Horrible idea.

Have someone shoot you "accidentally" instead of suicide to get a payoff for kids etc.....ugh.

Doubling up on life insurance.....would be a real mess. All to save the 0.000017628205128% of Americans who commit suicide by firearm yearly.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#164 » by popper » Tue May 14, 2013 1:48 am

Recognizing that the gun debate will not die here, I'd like to introduce my version of common sense. If my 25 yr. old, 105 lb. daughter broke down on a dark and lonely road, I'd rather put my trust in the 99.5% of gun owners who are good and merciful vs. the .5% who have evil intentions. Without access to guns, most any man could end my daughters life but a 85 yr. grandmother packing a .38 special could save her.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#165 » by montestewart » Tue May 14, 2013 2:06 am

I'm mostly staying out of this gun debate, but:
popper wrote:Without access to guns, most any man could end my daughters life but a 85 yr. grandmother packing a .38 special could save her.

is a great line. Is that yours? If so, you should be writing copy. Maybe for the NRA.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#166 » by popper » Tue May 14, 2013 3:43 am

montestewart wrote:I'm mostly staying out of this gun debate, but:
popper wrote:Without access to guns, most any man could end my daughters life but a 85 yr. grandmother packing a .38 special could save her.

is a great line. Is that yours? If so, you should be writing copy. Maybe for the NRA.


It is mine Monte and it is heartfelt (where have you been my friend? Trolling the hinterland of b-ball obscurity?) The evil that exists in this world carves a horrible piece out of our hearts and souls and I wonder whether those demons can ever be exorcised without faith. I look for a path to redemption but it is too late for me. I pray you and yours can find light in His love.

My son, 17 yrs. old now, gave a prayer for his grandfather's 90th birthday this past weekend with 25+ family members in attendance (from CA to FL to VA and KY). I cried in private, joyous that he has found the light, even when his father couldn't.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#167 » by Zonkerbl » Tue May 14, 2013 3:54 am

Induveca wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Actually, why not have the money go into a buyback program? Or some combo: if your gone is stolen and used to kill someone else, money goes to next of kin. Cases where some innocent bystander is killed by your gun. Otherwise money goes into the fund.


Sounds like a good way to tie up the courts in perpetuity. Horrible idea.

Have someone shoot you "accidentally" instead of suicide to get a payoff for kids etc.....ugh.

Doubling up on life insurance.....would be a real mess. All to save the 0.000017628205128% of Americans who commit suicide by firearm yearly.


Why? You can bet your tucus all 30000 deaths are being litigated anyway. If anything by clarifying things it should untangle the mess that's already there.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#168 » by montestewart » Tue May 14, 2013 4:31 am

Induveca wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Actually, why not have the money go into a buyback program? Or some combo: if your gone is stolen and used to kill someone else, money goes to next of kin. Cases where some innocent bystander is killed by your gun. Otherwise money goes into the fund.


Sounds like a good way to tie up the courts in perpetuity. Horrible idea.

Have someone shoot you "accidentally" instead of suicide to get a payoff for kids etc.....ugh.

Doubling up on life insurance.....would be a real mess. All to save the 0.000017628205128% of Americans who commit suicide by firearm yearly.

I think those guys that hang out in front of Home Depot will do that. Hard workers, pretty reliable. "Doscientos dólares para matarme. Con un arma de fuego. Costo del transporte también." Something like that should work.

They should get rid of all insurance. A lot of that just ends up in court.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#169 » by Zonkerbl » Tue May 14, 2013 4:33 am

Yeah, lets go live in Russia. They son't have insurance and look how much better off they are!
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#170 » by Induveca » Tue May 14, 2013 5:56 am

Quite frankly this has descended into wild conjecture at this point.

Zonk I appreciate your argument but it is a waste of brainpower....if there was a 25% chance of something like your recommendation passing it would be worth trying to find common ground.

But the US senate is compromised of factions far more at odds than us mere Wiz fans. They also have exponentially better poker faces.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#171 » by Zonkerbl » Tue May 14, 2013 1:10 pm

Induveca wrote:Quite frankly this has descended into wild conjecture at this point.

Zonk I appreciate your argument but it is a waste of brainpower....if there was a 25% chance of something like your recommendation passing it would be worth trying to find common ground.

But the US senate is compromised of factions far more at odds than us mere Wiz fans. They also have exponentially better poker faces.


I dunno, sometimes people ask me about stuff like this. Doesn't hurt. And maybe I'll go volunteer some time at a gun control advocacy group, give them my thoughts.

I'd much rather have thought this all the way through. Since we have a life insurance industry that is probably picking up a lot of the costs, they're probably the ones to talk to about this. Why don't you guys ask if there are guns in the home, and charge people extra if they do? If they don't because the amount of money is so small they don't care, then fine. Then the government can't do better than the private sector is doing already. If they're like, well, there's too much confusion about who is responsible, that can be clarified via legislation.

It's actually a much more tractable problem to me now. That's the advantage of thinking through the economics, and arguing with smart people about it.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#172 » by Induveca » Tue May 14, 2013 1:32 pm

The phone taps of the AP by the current administration is extremely disturbing. This is a common tactic used by the late Hugo Chavez, and many other Latin dictators to slowly ensure the media remained privately owned but quasi-censored.

Combine that with sicking the IRS on conservative groups? US politics are looking more and more like the 3rd world...

- preach "the rich are to blame".
- phone tap media to get their sources
- sick the tax authority on the opposition.....

3rd world gameplan....
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#173 » by Zonkerbl » Tue May 14, 2013 2:43 pm

Induveca wrote:The phone taps of the AP by the current administration is extremely disturbing. This is a common tactic used by the late Hugo Chavez, and many other Latin dictators to slowly ensure the media remained privately owned but quasi-censored.

Combine that with sicking the IRS on conservative groups? US politics are looking more and more like the 3rd world...

- preach "the rich are to blame".
- phone tap media to get their sources
- sick the tax authority on the opposition.....

3rd world gameplan....


I dunno... I think the IRS had some legit questions about whether those groups should be tax exempt. Republicans took a close look at ALCORN or whatever it was called, fair that the tea party groups should get a look too.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#174 » by pancakes3 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:07 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:the issue that a $1000 tax means only the wealthy can afford to protect themselves.


Not to exacerbate the issue of correlation and causation but wouldn't keeping guns out of the hands of the poor be a good thing?

Deep down I do believe that the genie is out of the bottle and if we do start taxing guns or adding to insurance it will just drive people towards the black market and illegality rather than effect any change. There are just too many guns out there and more coming.

The firearm industry is an $11 billion/year industry selling about 3.5 million new guns a year. 1 in 3 households report owning a gun, so the actual figure is probably closer to 1 in 2. Estimates of existing civilian guns in the US sit at around 300 million give or take 20 million.

This is what makes the issue so messy. It's a tumor that's already grown out of hand. At this point maybe it would be easier to have bullet control.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#175 » by nate33 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:17 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
Induveca wrote:The phone taps of the AP by the current administration is extremely disturbing. This is a common tactic used by the late Hugo Chavez, and many other Latin dictators to slowly ensure the media remained privately owned but quasi-censored.

Combine that with sicking the IRS on conservative groups? US politics are looking more and more like the 3rd world...

- preach "the rich are to blame".
- phone tap media to get their sources
- sick the tax authority on the opposition.....

3rd world gameplan....


I dunno... I think the IRS had some legit questions about whether those groups should be tax exempt. Republicans took a close look at ALCORN or whatever it was called, fair that the tea party groups should get a look too.

IIRC, ACORN was actually receiving direct federal funding. The fact that they had a political bias was much more of an issue. It wasn't a case of the IRS going after them. It was an investigation of why tax dollars should be used to advocate for one political party.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#176 » by dobrojim » Tue May 14, 2013 6:20 pm

IRS abuse is a troubling issue for all sides.

that said, in the current political climate of opaquely funded public advocacy
groups playing footsie with the line between political and non-political activities,
that we such end up here isn't terribly surprising. The IRS was not in an enviable
position here.

we need a lot more clarity on the whole realm of issues raised by these
revelations.

edit to add - meant to include a comment that tax free status is arguably
just as much a form of govt spending as many others.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#177 » by doclinkin » Tue May 14, 2013 6:51 pm

Seems to me not only reasonable but intelligent of the IRS to provide added scrutiny on organizations whose stated aims involve abolishing taxes. Probable cause and whatnot.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#178 » by nate33 » Tue May 14, 2013 7:38 pm

doclinkin wrote:Seems to me not only reasonable but intelligent of the IRS to provide added scrutiny on organizations whose stated aims involve abolishing taxes. Probable cause and whatnot.

I'm 100% certain that you and many others on this board wouldn't be so nonchalant about the issue if a Bush was in the White House and liberal advocacy groups were being intentionally targeted by the IRS. You guys would be losing your minds, talking about the dictatorial President and the decline of democracy in America. The media uproar would be 24/7 for weeks.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#179 » by Zonkerbl » Tue May 14, 2013 7:52 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Seems to me not only reasonable but intelligent of the IRS to provide added scrutiny on organizations whose stated aims involve abolishing taxes. Probable cause and whatnot.

I'm 100% certain that you and many others on this board wouldn't be so nonchalant about the issue if a Bush was in the White House and liberal advocacy groups were being intentionally targeted by the IRS. You guys would be losing your minds, talking about the dictatorial President and the decline of democracy in America. The media uproar would be 24/7 for weeks.


Well, duh. We're the good guys. Republicans are eville and need to be investigated0rzz!!!
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#180 » by W. Unseld » Tue May 14, 2013 9:29 pm

The IRS abuse has been done by both sides (FDR & Nixon come to mind) but it absolutely shouldn't be tolerated. Now isn't the time to debate the merits of non-profit groups (though it is a worthwhile debate down the road).
The AP story is horrifying. No matter what your political persuasion is I wouldn't shrug off either of these, b/c no matter which way you go politically, no matter how many times the end of political history has been declared the other side will eventually get in and if it's okay when the side you're rootinng for does it, it will make it harder to attack when the side you're not rooting for does it and we, the public, are all worse off for it.

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