Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV

[gambitx777]

I feel for the sun, that sucks for them!

[montestewart]

Cousins... ...but Gortat... Cousins... ...yet Gortat... Cousins... ...but Gortat... Cousins... ...yet Gortat... Cousins... ...but Gortat... yet Cousins... ...while Gortat... Cousins... ...but Gortat...

This conversation is going nowhere, but you're wrong.

No, you're going nowhere -- this conversation is wrong!

The Gortat Cousins was a famous WWE tag team that specialized in tables, chairs and ladders matches.

[Ruzious]

Cutting to the chase, this year is now or never for Cousins. He's got arguably the most talented player in the NBA as a teammate - Anthony Davis - along with a talented PG in Jrue Holiday. If they stay healthy and don't get a winning record... some people have got to stop with the excuses. If they get to the playoffs and actually do something there, then the other folks have to give him props. Sound reasonable? Then both sides write a 1,000 page dissertation on the pros and cons of Brook Lopez in the stretch 4 / 3 and D post appocalyptical world.

Sorry, but I disagree. Certainly Cousins can regress/devolve and I'll be the first to lay blame at his feet.
But make no mistake, that team is set to fail.
1) Gentry is a terrible half court coach, and that is what Cousins does well.
2) They have 2 point guards and 2 high usage Centers in their starting lineup with no wings worth a roster spot in the NBA.
3) They have no fans and are the smallest media market
4) The West is LOADED. The top 6 teams from last year are still good, but the Nuggets, Timberwolves, and Kings are now dangerous and the Blazers arent finished. So its the Pels, Grizzlies, Blazers, Nuggets, Timberwolves, and Kings fighting for 2 spots... I dont see it

Nope. No more excuses.

1. At this point in his career, a coach would have to be absolutely awful to make much of a difference. He is what he is.
2. I'm not sure it's a bad thing to have 2 PGs when you have 2 bigs that are such offensive forces. And Jrue can play off the ball.
3. Tell em to change their names.
4. The Kings? If the Kings do better than the Pelicans, Cousins fans should... fill in the blank.

[pcbothwel]

Cutting to the chase, this year is now or never for Cousins. He's got arguably the most talented player in the NBA as a teammate - Anthony Davis - along with a talented PG in Jrue Holiday. If they stay healthy and don't get a winning record... some people have got to stop with the excuses. If they get to the playoffs and actually do something there, then the other folks have to give him props. Sound reasonable? Then both sides write a 1,000 page dissertation on the pros and cons of Brook Lopez in the stretch 4 / 3 and D post appocalyptical world.

Sorry, but I disagree. Certainly Cousins can regress/devolve and I'll be the first to lay blame at his feet.
But make no mistake, that team is set to fail.
1) Gentry is a terrible half court coach, and that is what Cousins does well.
2) They have 2 point guards and 2 high usage Centers in their starting lineup with no wings worth a roster spot in the NBA.
3) They have no fans and are the smallest media market
4) The West is LOADED. The top 6 teams from last year are still good, but the Nuggets, Timberwolves, and Kings are now dangerous and the Blazers arent finished. So its the Pels, Grizzlies, Blazers, Nuggets, Timberwolves, and Kings fighting for 2 spots... I dont see it

Nope. No more excuses.

1. At this point in his career, a coach would have to be absolutely awful to make much of a difference. He is what he is.
2. I'm not sure it's a bad thing to have 2 PGs when you have 2 bigs that are such offensive forces. And Jrue can play off the ball.
3. Tell em to change their names.
4. The Kings? If the Kings do better than the Pelicans, Cousins fans should... fill in the blank.

No more excuses? If Cousins plays well, but AD gets hurts for 20 games and Rondo pulls a Rondo there is a strong likelihood they dont make the playoffs. 4 out of last 5 years, Rondo wasnt a starting caliber PG. In SAC two years ago he was a low end starter. He is turning 32 this year and will probably fall off even more.
Why do people keep slurping AD? Before the Cousins trade, they were on pace to win 33 games last year with AD playing every game. 33!
Now they add Cousins and Rondo, while losing Frazier, T-Jones, Hield, and Galloway...
Do you really think they are 10-12 wins better?

I agree that the Kings wont be better, but how can you say the Pels are better than the other teams I listed. There are two spots available, can you really say the Pels are better than 3 of these teams:

T-Wolves:
Teague / Tyus
Butler / Crawford
Wiggins / Bjelica
Dieng / Gibson / Bjelica
KAT / Aldrich / Patton

Grizzlies:
Conley / Baldwin
McLemore / Daniels
Parsons / Tyreke
Wright / Davis
Gasol

Nuggets:
Murray / Nelson / Mudiay
Harris / Beasley / Miller
Chandler / Barton
Millsap / Arthur / Hernangomez / Lyles / Lydon
Jokic / Plumlee / Faried

Blazers:
Dame / Napier
CJ / Turner
Aminu / Harkless
Harkless / Vonleh / Swanigan
Nurkic / Davis / Collins

i dont see how they are better than the T-Wolves or the Nuggets. You know Thibs will have that team winning games in the regular season too.
The Grizzlies dont look great, but they are VERY well coached and Conley/Gasol are the most consistent players in the league. If Parsons is even half the player he used to be, they will win 45 games.
The Blazers were 14-6 after the trade for Nurkic. If they add Ariza / Anderson from Houston... they could win 45-50

[Ruzious]

I did say "if they stay healthy", so you're right - that would be a valid excuse, and certainly Davis and Jrue have had a hard time staying healthy. I hear ya - those are 3 intriguing teams, and the Grizzlies aren't bad, but if you have a healthy Davis and Jrue teamed with a big-time big, it's not too much to expect them to make the playoffs.

[pcbothwel]

I did say "if they stay healthy", so you're right - that would be a valid excuse, and certainly Davis and Jrue have had a hard time staying healthy. I hear ya - those are 3 intriguing teams, and the Grizzlies aren't bad, but if you have a healthy Davis and Jrue teamed with a big-time big, it's not too much to expect them to make the playoffs.

Agreed, but you said no excuse for Boogie. I.E. If they dont make the playoffs and there is no freak accident with AD/Boogie, then the "Boogie is not a winning player" is deemed valid. Im simply stating that without Boogie, NOP was more or less a 30 win team. Boogie was considered an 11 win player last year, which is a top 20 player. There is a VERY good chance that 43-45 wins DOES NOT get you in the playoffs in the West...

[pcbothwel]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

[deneem4]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

Ok definitely do this trade
Monroe is as good s rim protector as this current gortat and a better scorer and rebounder

[Dat2U]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

Sign me up. I think Monroe has surpassed Gortat in terms of effectiveness. Defensively they are probably on equal terms now. Hawes is basically unplayable in my book so hopefully he wouldn't see too many minutes this year behind Monroe & Mahinmi.

[Dat2U]

I did say "if they stay healthy", so you're right - that would be a valid excuse, and certainly Davis and Jrue have had a hard time staying healthy. I hear ya - those are 3 intriguing teams, and the Grizzlies aren't bad, but if you have a healthy Davis and Jrue teamed with a big-time big, it's not too much to expect them to make the playoffs.

I don't expect the Pelicans to make the playoffs out west but I wouldn't hold that against Cousins or Davis. There's zero talent on that roster outside of their big 3. Solomon Hill is passable but he's more of an undersized 4 than a SF. Their perimeter depth is ugly. No one can hit an open shot outside of Davis, Cousins & Holiday.

[NatP4]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

I mean, of course it's a good idea, but it's not possible. We are over the luxury tax line and would be taking on 6 million in extra salary in that trade. Why would the Bucks trade away two large expiring deals for 2 longer deals?

the whole structure of the deal doesn't work because we can't take on uneven trades.

[gambitx777]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

This trade won't work for several reasons #1 because we are both over the tax, so the deal must be pretty close to even money. 5 million too much coming to the wiz, also. So take hayes our and it works money wise. Terrible idea, because what does it really do for us. If monroe is as good as you say, they ain't taking an even trade. So we would have to burn a pick? a second or a first? not worth it. monroe is not that much better than gortat, plus the 17 mill in leaving salary would not even get us under the cap. we can't keep him, hes just a rental. gortat and smith are part of the team and a one year rental of a moderate upgrade is not worth it.

Now if you were to say do mahinmi, smith, and a pick (either 2018 second and Aaron White or a 2019 first round pick) for Henson and Dellavedova. i'd do that all day.
Delly is a solid back up guard, he can play both spots, shots well and can play with both john and brad and plays good pesky D. His contract is constant at 9.6 mill no raises so its rather cap friendly and is 26!. Henson also 26, and is a solid bench center, plays decent D and is on one of the most team friendly deals in the NBA that decreases over the next couple years yearly. What do we need? we need a bench up grade, not a moderate up tick one year rental at center. I feel that henson over mahinmi is about as much of a lateral move as monroe over gortat and delly is an upgrade 100%, Plus we loose mahinmis deal for two younger 26 year old players on solid tradable team friendly deals.

They do this trade possibly because as yall said they go't no center after next year and not a lot of money and he fits well as a back up for monroe, who else do they have hawes? naw and it seems like henson need a change of town so This deal work for both teams, and if they bite on the second and aaron, all the better if we keep that 2019 first. Then we can move gortat else where if need be. but a monroe trade is not what this team needs.

[NatP4]

If we got a TPE from the Bojan signing, we could make a deal like that, but Ernie was already on vacation at that point and has his intern renounce the rights to Bojan.

[gambitx777]

If we got a TPE from the Bojan signing, we could make a deal like that, but Ernie was already on vacation at that point and has his intern renounce the rights to Bojan.

Probably not even them because it would coast us about an extra 13-14 mill in lux tax. on top of the 14 we already owe. Teds not pay that much tax money. And honestly I don't blame him.

[keynote]

If we got a TPE from the Bojan signing, we could make a deal like that, but Ernie was already on vacation at that point and has his intern renounce the rights to Bojan.

I don't think a TPE was available: IND only wanted to sign him for two years, and teams can't execute a S&T for less than a three-year deal. I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong.

[payitforward]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

This is kind of interesting. But, would not the extra salary this year really bump up our luxury tax payment? We really would have to trade Monroe at the deadline.

Leaving aside the debate over Cousins, I would like to know how anyone thinks we can afford him. I can't see Ted taking up permanent residence on luxury tax lane, can you?

[NatP4]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

This is kind of interesting. But, would not the extra salary this year really bump up our luxury tax payment? We really would have to trade Monroe at the deadline.

Leaving aside the debate over Cousins, I would like to know how anyone thinks we can afford him. I can't see Ted taking up permanent residence on luxury tax lane, can you?

They said they would. if Gortat/Smith/Frazier/Ochefu/McCullough come off the books before or by next summer, that is 24 million in cap relief and Cousins would make around 30 million on his new deal. Surely that wouldn't prevent a front office from making that move, I would hope. Obviously it would have to be through trade not free agency to work. I also don't think its completely unrealistic to assume Boogie might leave 5-6 million on the table to come play with John Wall and compete for a championship.

[pcbothwel]

I mean, of course it's a good idea, but it's not possible. We are over the luxury tax line and would be taking on 6 million in extra salary in that trade. Why would the Bucks trade away two large expiring deals for 2 longer deals?

the whole structure of the deal doesn't work because we can't take on uneven trades.

This trade won't work for several reasons #1 because we are both over the tax, so the deal must be pretty close to even money. 5 million too much coming to the wiz, also. So take hayes our and it works money wise. Terrible idea, because what does it really do for us. If monroe is as good as you say, they ain't taking an even trade. So we would have to burn a pick? a second or a first? not worth it. monroe is not that much better than gortat, plus the 17 mill in leaving salary would not even get us under the cap. we can't keep him, hes just a rental. gortat and smith are part of the team and a one year rental of a moderate upgrade is not worth it.

Now if you were to say do mahinmi, smith, and a pick (either 2018 second and Aaron White or a 2019 first round pick) for Henson and Dellavedova. i'd do that all day.
Delly is a solid back up guard, he can play both spots, shots well and can play with both john and brad and plays good pesky D. His contract is constant at 9.6 mill no raises so its rather cap friendly and is 26!. Henson also 26, and is a solid bench center, plays decent D and is on one of the most team friendly deals in the NBA that decreases over the next couple years yearly. What do we need? we need a bench up grade, not a moderate up tick one year rental at center. I feel that henson over mahinmi is about as much of a lateral move as monroe over gortat and delly is an upgrade 100%, Plus we loose mahinmis deal for two younger 26 year old players on solid tradable team friendly deals.

They do this trade possibly because as yall said they go't no center after next year and not a lot of money and he fits well as a back up for monroe, who else do they have hawes? naw and it seems like henson need a change of town so This deal work for both teams, and if they bite on the second and aaron, all the better if we keep that 2019 first. Then we can move gortat else where if need be. but a monroe trade is not what this team needs.

Where are you guys reading this? Tax paying teams can take up to 125% + 100k.
So Gortat + CMC works as does Gortat/Smith/Ochefu for Monroe/Hawes...

And Monroe is not particularly better than Gortat. The real difference is the money and play style (Gortat is more effient and PnR...Monroe can score with more volume/post moves and passes better).
Bucks do this to avoid tax this year, and starting Center next year.
Gortat is perfect as he can start this year and then split 50/50 with Maker in 18/19. He then comes off the books so they can resign Middleton, Brogdan, and Vaughn. Maker moves in as Starter...

[payitforward]

One other intriguing trade is with the Bucks. They are about 2M over the Tax Line are are trying to trade Monroe and Henson (NO INTEREST in him).
I'd offer Gortat and Smith for Monroe and Hawes.
Why?
Bucks get starting Center for the next two years for 30% less than Monroe. They also get under tax line. They have no cap space next year, so Monroe expiring does nothing for them.

Wiz get talent upgrade at C while also having a contrasting talent to Mahinmi. Monroe/Hawes would be 23M in expiring contracts that could come in handy at the deadline to a team looking to cut salary. A boogie trade or a Deng trade would be quite interesting before the AS break.

This is kind of interesting. But, would not the extra salary this year really bump up our luxury tax payment? We really would have to trade Monroe at the deadline.

Leaving aside the debate over Cousins, I would like to know how anyone thinks we can afford him. I can't see Ted taking up permanent residence on luxury tax lane, can you?

They said they would. if Gortat/Smith/Frazier/Ochefu/McCullough come off the books before or by next summer, that is 24 million in cap relief and Cousins would make around 30 million on his new deal. Surely that wouldn't prevent a front office from making that move, I would hope. Obviously it would have to be through trade not free agency to work. I also don't think its completely unrealistic to assume Boogie might leave 5-6 million on the table to come play with John Wall and compete for a championship.

Removing low-price players like Frazier/Ochefu/McCullough doesn't help. We need a full roster, & whoever replaced them would cost the same or more.

Yes, it is completely unrealistic to imagine Cousins (or anyone) in his prime years agreeing to make $5-6m less a year. Do you think that there'll be another way, over the years, for Cousins to make that kind of money? No. Did Beal/Porter/Wall leave money on the table to make it easier to acquire Cousins?

The idea that the Wizards would have Cousins at $30m to go along with Wall/Beal/Otto totaling @$94m together is incomprehensible, Nat. That's $124m for 4 players. We'd wind up with the highest payroll in the league -- & not for the best team in the league either.

Nor did Ted/Ernie say they would pay the luxury tax in perpetuum; there's no chance of that.

[pcbothwel]

This is kind of interesting. But, would not the extra salary this year really bump up our luxury tax payment? We really would have to trade Monroe at the deadline.

Leaving aside the debate over Cousins, I would like to know how anyone thinks we can afford him. I can't see Ted taking up permanent residence on luxury tax lane, can you?

They said they would. if Gortat/Smith/Frazier/Ochefu/McCullough come off the books before or by next summer, that is 24 million in cap relief and Cousins would make around 30 million on his new deal. Surely that wouldn't prevent a front office from making that move, I would hope. Obviously it would have to be through trade not free agency to work. I also don't think its completely unrealistic to assume Boogie might leave 5-6 million on the table to come play with John Wall and compete for a championship.

Removing low-price players like Frazier/Ochefu/McCullough doesn't help. We need a full roster, & whoever replaced them would cost the same or more.

Yes, it is completely unrealistic to imagine Cousins (or anyone) in his prime years agreeing to make $5-6m less a year. Do you think that there'll be another way, over the years, for Cousins to make that kind of money? No. Did Beal/Porter/Wall leave money on the table to make it easier to acquire Cousins?

The idea that the Wizards would have Cousins at $30m to go along with Wall/Beal/Otto totaling @$94m together is incomprehensible, Nat. That's $124m for 4 players. We'd wind up with the highest payroll in the league -- & not for the best team in the league either.

Nor did Ted/Ernie say they would pay the luxury tax in perpetuum; there's no chance of that.

PIF, We are at 125M right now. I dont see why we couldnt go to 135M next year if needed. That said, we do have a way to drop salary.
Trade Beal or Otto.
We would basically be trading Beal or Otto for Cousins, but it would bring us a more balanced lineup (Especially if Oubre breaks out), plus whatever assets we get in a trade.