Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[Zonkerbl]

I'll let you in on a secret - I bet you dollars over doughnuts there are some people working in the FBI who think people who commit crimes are dirtbags, and they probably hate these people passionately. You want to know another secret? That's their job.

Chances are someday you might be investigated by someone who thinks you are a dirtbag criminal and therefore hates your guts, and is doing everything possible to dig up dirt on you to prove that you did wrong.

That's how the system works. You don't become a cop because you care deeply about criminal's rights.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think everyone is worth it.

Agreed. Heck, we have loads of historical examples of cases like this. Germany and Japan have both had to look back on how they operated in WWII and figure out how to can reconcile themselves and their history. Heck, America has had to do that very recently, too, with wars like Vietnam and Iraq, although there is a lot of head in the sand stuff, which really isn't uncommon anywhere.

[Zonkerbl]

Don't get me wrong. Nate is who he is - I'm not saying he isn't. Nevertheless, the fact that Nate is actually willing to engage in a fact-based conversation makes him orders of magnitude better than the typical garbage you face on the intertubes. Plus I would be a bad Jew if I were to judge Nate. My job is to speak the truth, that's all.

Nate is a race-baiting pseudo-intellectual. He's no better than your typical stormfront troll.

How does name-calling help though? Nobody's forcing you to read his posts or respond or in fact do anything. Put him on your ignore list if you can't stand it.

[cammac]

Dow opens over 300 points lower!
Is this the end of the Trump bump?
The market was one of the few positives that Trump could crow about!
While it is unfair to put the blame or success of the market on any President this one has made it a key accomplishment.
What goes up can come down!

[JWizmentality]

Yikes, my stocks are taking a beating...but it's ok. I'm going to get trickled on.

[gtn130]

Don't get me wrong. Nate is who he is - I'm not saying he isn't. Nevertheless, the fact that Nate is actually willing to engage in a fact-based conversation makes him orders of magnitude better than the typical garbage you face on the intertubes. Plus I would be a bad Jew if I were to judge Nate. My job is to speak the truth, that's all.

Nate is a race-baiting pseudo-intellectual. He's no better than your typical stormfront troll.

How does name-calling help though? Nobody's forcing you to read his posts or respond or in fact do anything. Put him on your ignore list if you can't stand it.

Blurring the lines between racists and non-racists is helpful only to racists.

[dckingsfan]

Nate is a race-baiting pseudo-intellectual. He's no better than your typical stormfront troll.

How does name-calling help though? Nobody's forcing you to read his posts or respond or in fact do anything. Put him on your ignore list if you can't stand it.

Blurring the lines between racists and non-racists is helpful only to racists.

You are either completely in my camp - or you are a racist

[nate33]

* Why do you suppose Natalia Veselnitskaya visited Fusion GPS before and after her meeting with Trump?

Who cares? Why would that matter?

* Why did Comey deviate from long established protocol to notify Congress every quarterly about sensitive investigations, but failed to notify Congress about the Trump investigation for 8 months?

Because the target of the investigation was Trump?

* Why did Strozk refer to an "insurance policy" that was worked out in "Andy's office" in case Trump was elected?

Who cares? Is it illegal for FBI agents to have political opinions? I think the opposite is true, if all the people investigating Trump were Trump sycophants I would be worried about the integrity of the investigation. I'm relieved that at least one Trump hater was on the team keeping everyone honest.

* Why did the FBI deliberately omit the critical information that Steele Dossier was paid for by the Clinton campaign?

They didn't. And it doesn't matter. A lot of the data the FBI gets is from people who have an ax to grind. It comes with the territory.

* Why did the FBI continue to work with Steele after they knew he leaked to Yahoo News (prior to getting the FISA warrant) but later cut ties with Steele after he leaked to Mother Jones (after getting the FISA warrant)?

Who knows? Why does it matter? The FISA warrant was not based on the Steele dossier so it doesn't matter.

* Why did the FBI change the wording of the letter that reopened the Hillary Clinton email investigation ten days before the election, - changing it from "grossly negligent" to "extremely careless"?

Because grossly negligent implies HRC was guilty of a crime, and the FBI had no evidence that she was, so to say she was grossly negligent would be factually incorrect.

* Why did James Clapper flatly deny in a CNN interview in March 2017 the possibility of a FISA surveillance warrant on the Trump team. He claimed boldly that no warrant exists and if there was one, he would definitely know. And then in September of 2017 he changes his story and says there could have been wiretaps. Why did he lie the first time?

Who cares?

* When the FBI finally obtained a Title 1 FISA warrant for Page in October of 2016, Page had already been kicked off the Trump team, yet they used that warrant as an excuse to tap Trump's communications. Does that seem right?

WTF are you talking about? The FISA warrant at issue in Nunes nutlicker's memo was asking for permission to surveil Page. You're embarrassing me Nate.

* Why did Strzok (an admitted Trump hater) and another agent ambush Flynn with an interrogation without any forewarning and without Flynn having an attorney? Were they really that concerned about the Logan Act? Does that not seem highly irregular for a biased agent to interrogate Flynn for a "crime" that has never been prosecuted in 200 years?

OH MY GOD THEY USED STANDARD COP INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES ON MY SAINTLY ANGEL TRUMP HOW DARE THEY? Again, I'm glad they had an admitted Trump hater on the team and am sorry he was let go. It would be corrupt and immoral and fascist to require ideological purity of every member of the investigative team.

Why didn't I rebut these? Because a fourth grader could and it's not worth my time. I'm not interested in engaging in irrelevant or incorrect arguments. I expect better from you. I want arguments that I at least need to spend ten seconds googling something to rebut, instead of just exploding them off the top of my head. These are *terrible* arguments.

Yes. The FISA process is secret and that allows it to be abused. I think that is a perfectly legitimate conversation to have. But using a memo criticizing the FBI as a weapon to protect the president from a legitimate investigation into his crimes is not an intellectually honest way to have this conversation.

Okay. I see now. There is a key aspect of this that you and the other left-leaning people on the forum seem to be missing. And by not understanding this, I can see how you believe these explanations resolve the issue. Please, if you care about this issue at all, read carefully what I'm going to say next:

The FISA warrant that the FBI obtained on Carter Page was a Title I FISA warrant, not a Title VII FISA warrant. In a Title VII warrant, the FBI only has access to the subject's direct communication to foreign entities. That's it. It's presumably what was used to wiretap Flynn when he talked to the Russians about the sanctions. The Steele dossier deception allowed the FBI to obtain a Title I FISA warrant.

In a Title I warrant, the government isn't just labeling a person a person-of-interest, they "must show that the U.S. person is engaging in espionage, terrorism, or sabotage." A Title 1 warrant is the most intrusive, exhaustive and far reaching type of search, seizure and surveillance authority permitted. It allows the government to surveil the subject's communication with Person A, and it allows them to then spy on the communications of Person A with Person B. It covers 2 degrees of separation from the initial subject. Furthermore, since the NSA records all phone calls and emails, they can go back in time and review old communications. So the fact that the authority was granted after Page left the Trump campaign is irrelevant. They can still use the authority to go back and review old conversations between anyone Page has ever spoken to and with anyone else two degrees separated from Page. Basically, it gave them access to the communications of virtually the entire Trump team.

Further, understand that the evidence they had that Page was a spy was pretty damn thin. Cammac posted an article a little earlier detailing how Page had been on the FBI's radar for years, and despite all that time, they never were able to implicate him in anything. He certainly was interested in making deals with Russia, but even the Russians considered him too stupid to be worth trying to convert as an asset. After Trump added Page to the foreign policy team, the FBI tried to gain a Title I FISA warrant and were denied. This is an extraordinarily rare thing. Only 1 in 10,000 warrants are denied. That's how little they had on Page. So they then created this dossier, lied about it's credibility and origins, and used it to get a warrant 3 months later.

What we don't yet know is to what degree the FBI used the Title 1 authority on Page to spy on the rest of the campaign. There is certainly reason to believe that spying took place. Of particular note is that Admiral Mike Rogers met with Trump on the first day after a SCIF was set up in Trump Tower (a week after the election), and the day after that, the entire Trump transition team abruptly moved their operation from Trump Tower to Bedminster, NJ with no warning. (Admiral Rogers was the director of the NSA and would know if spying activity was taking place.)

[stilldropin20]

See, here is a perfect teaching moment, right here. As I've said to many of you "emotional" posters before, whether you choose to be baited is entirely your decision. If we were in some forum where people were debating before a group of ill-informed undecideds, I might better understand the passion of rebuttal, but here is just recycled partisan non-msm FAKE NEWS! bullet points offered as "facts" in a lukewarm and watery paste of reasoned analysis, and there's no one in here to hear them. I choose not to debate in such a setting over such minimal stakes. You too can make that choice.

If you really want to make a difference, find some true undecideds and make the case directly to them. There are no undecideds here. If a tree falls in a forest, and Trump wins...you got it: Russia!

ooooh. this doesn't sound like the usual mindless getting to know you useless chit chat. its sound like you got something more to say?

See, this is good. Again the relentless succession of not very sleight slights standing on their own and together synthesizing the omnidirectional hammer of condescension and a self sustaining deniability no more reasoned than the arguments coupled to them, but necessary to maintain character, one that affects offense when someone responds with anger and name calling, though that is clearly the intended response.

Get angry, respond with insults, engage in reasoned debate? These are paths to defeat under these particular circumstances. Why bother? I try to read all posts, but I certainly don't respond to all of them, and non-mods don't need to read or respond to any post.

my last response was not intended to be a slight at all, in fact its a direct quote from Pulp fiction. I have been throwing in quotes from movies and songs in nearly every one of my posts going back 16 years. just for fun. But it truly sounds to me like you want to expand those thoughts. which you did somewhat.

Though I'm not exactly certain where you are pointing the finger, I do agree with the position. That reasoned debate is getting lost in all this.

I'm going to be honest. You have 2-3 posters on the liberal side that have dug themselves in so far that they wont allow reasoned debate to exist in this thread. I for example, absolutely did not enter this debate to sling mud. And I truly am an independent and my mind is open to be swayed. But I was personally (attacked really) and what felt like relentlessly as some sort of vetting process because there was no way i could actually be an independent. At some point I responded in kind. I know who those 2-3 posters are and I have attempted to battle their disinformation campaign while attempting to reasonable debate with other posters.

And this is a fight worth fighting because there are more "emotional" people on this earth than there are "reasonable." Emotional people are not swayed with reason too often. They need comedy. they need fire. They need fury. they need a stroy line. They need a hero. Reasonable people simply need reason based on sound logic and understand that emotions play a part in both.

And you clearly fall on the liberal side of things. So you dont mind these 2-3 posters that dumby-down the discussion to purely emotional, vile, borderline hatred at times because when they do they drown out logic. What's weird is that I've seen all 3-4 of these posters use well reasoned arguments at times.

So its hard for a conservative thought line to exist and maintain itself in these pages. And that is their (and yours, frankly) intent. Nate and myself have learned to navigate those waters of existence in these threads. But barely. Because appropriately responding in kind to the attacks we face requires a "bannable" style of posting. And then there they are...all 3-4 of them calling for the banning.

So while i get (and fully appreciate) that politics is heated discussion. and i get that a thicker skin is needed to navigate these murky waters. Part of that thicker skin is a completely dismissive posting style that attempts to completely dismiss the ongoing onslaught of personal attacks. and when I say 2-3 posters, or 3-4...really it comes from about 6-7 posters depending on the day/week. And its sad because good posters that I would otherwise strictly converse with like DCkings, my responses to him have been pushed to the back burner so as to engage in the theatrics of the absurd with the emotional name calling crowd.

And I would hope that anyone that is reading my posts would understand that I am trying to accomplish multiple goals at the same time. Entertain. Influence. Defend myself. Fend off the the (what I consider) misinformation. Spread my own information. And I try to reference modern history and even beyond at times because i dont think we can ever fully understand where we are without understanding how we got here. and not necessarily the "doctored up version" written down in US or world history books as the wealthy elite class has owned the press (spoken and written) almost since the beginning of "man."

I'll say this again. I was a CT/ET tech on the USS parche and the USS william H bates in the late 80's and early 90's. And I was a Diver. Do some research and explore what that means. I can never talk about that stuff. but enough is out there for you to put some things together. From there my story gets even more interesting including being a part-time consultant on operation equipment and internal ops compartment design for ("certain")modifications to the USS Jimmy Carter. I'll put it to you like this. I once knew what we were really doing. I once knew what everyone was really doing. and it doesn't look to me like things are much different today. And its not (exactly) what you think it is. and there is wealthy elite global push back (from multiple sides) on how to accomplish "things."

I exist in this thread strictly to help and on my own recourse. My thoughts are my own. I didn't bang my head on anything along the way nor get lost in the weeds.

[gtn130]

How does name-calling help though? Nobody's forcing you to read his posts or respond or in fact do anything. Put him on your ignore list if you can't stand it.

Blurring the lines between racists and non-racists is helpful only to racists.

You are either completely in my camp - or you are a racist

Why on earth should there be middle ground between racists and non-racists? It's a binary thing.

Why do you refuse to believe that there are racist people on this planet?

[gtn130]

Further, understand that the evidence they had that Page was a spy was pretty damn thin

He publicly acknowledged in 2013 that he works for the Kremlin.

[Zonkerbl]

* Why do you suppose Natalia Veselnitskaya visited Fusion GPS before and after her meeting with Trump?

Who cares? Why would that matter?

* Why did Comey deviate from long established protocol to notify Congress every quarterly about sensitive investigations, but failed to notify Congress about the Trump investigation for 8 months?

Because the target of the investigation was Trump?

* Why did Strozk refer to an "insurance policy" that was worked out in "Andy's office" in case Trump was elected?

Who cares? Is it illegal for FBI agents to have political opinions? I think the opposite is true, if all the people investigating Trump were Trump sycophants I would be worried about the integrity of the investigation. I'm relieved that at least one Trump hater was on the team keeping everyone honest.

* Why did the FBI deliberately omit the critical information that Steele Dossier was paid for by the Clinton campaign?

They didn't. And it doesn't matter. A lot of the data the FBI gets is from people who have an ax to grind. It comes with the territory.

* Why did the FBI continue to work with Steele after they knew he leaked to Yahoo News (prior to getting the FISA warrant) but later cut ties with Steele after he leaked to Mother Jones (after getting the FISA warrant)?

Who knows? Why does it matter? The FISA warrant was not based on the Steele dossier so it doesn't matter.

* Why did the FBI change the wording of the letter that reopened the Hillary Clinton email investigation ten days before the election, - changing it from "grossly negligent" to "extremely careless"?

Because grossly negligent implies HRC was guilty of a crime, and the FBI had no evidence that she was, so to say she was grossly negligent would be factually incorrect.

* Why did James Clapper flatly deny in a CNN interview in March 2017 the possibility of a FISA surveillance warrant on the Trump team. He claimed boldly that no warrant exists and if there was one, he would definitely know. And then in September of 2017 he changes his story and says there could have been wiretaps. Why did he lie the first time?

Who cares?

* When the FBI finally obtained a Title 1 FISA warrant for Page in October of 2016, Page had already been kicked off the Trump team, yet they used that warrant as an excuse to tap Trump's communications. Does that seem right?

WTF are you talking about? The FISA warrant at issue in Nunes nutlicker's memo was asking for permission to surveil Page. You're embarrassing me Nate.

* Why did Strzok (an admitted Trump hater) and another agent ambush Flynn with an interrogation without any forewarning and without Flynn having an attorney? Were they really that concerned about the Logan Act? Does that not seem highly irregular for a biased agent to interrogate Flynn for a "crime" that has never been prosecuted in 200 years?

OH MY GOD THEY USED STANDARD COP INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES ON MY SAINTLY ANGEL TRUMP HOW DARE THEY? Again, I'm glad they had an admitted Trump hater on the team and am sorry he was let go. It would be corrupt and immoral and fascist to require ideological purity of every member of the investigative team.

Why didn't I rebut these? Because a fourth grader could and it's not worth my time. I'm not interested in engaging in irrelevant or incorrect arguments. I expect better from you. I want arguments that I at least need to spend ten seconds googling something to rebut, instead of just exploding them off the top of my head. These are *terrible* arguments.

Yes. The FISA process is secret and that allows it to be abused. I think that is a perfectly legitimate conversation to have. But using a memo criticizing the FBI as a weapon to protect the president from a legitimate investigation into his crimes is not an intellectually honest way to have this conversation.

Okay. I see now. There is a key aspect of this that you and the other left-leaning people on the forum seem to be missing. And by not understanding this, I can see how you believe these explanations resolve the issue. Please, if you care about this issue at all, read carefully what I'm going to say next:

The FISA warrant that the FBI obtained on Carter Page was a Title I FISA warrant, not a Title VII FISA warrant. In a Title VII warrant, the FBI only has access to the subject's direct communication to foreign entities. That's it. It's presumably what was used to wiretap Flynn when he talked to the Russians about the sanctions. The Steele dossier deception allowed the FBI to obtain a Title I FISA warrant.

In a Title I warrant, the government isn't just labeling a person a person-of-interest, they "must show that the U.S. person is engaging in espionage, terrorism, or sabotage." A Title 1 warrant is the most intrusive, exhaustive and far reaching type of search, seizure and surveillance authority permitted. It allows the government to surveil the subject's communication with Person A, and it allows them to then spy on the communications of Person A with Person B. It covers 2 degrees of separation from the initial subject. Furthermore, since the NSA records all phone calls and emails, they can go back in time and review old communications. So the fact that the authority was granted after Page left the Trump campaign is irrelevant. They can still use the authority to go back and review old conversations between anyone Page has ever spoken to and with anyone else two degrees separated from Page.

Further, understand that the evidence they had that Page was a spy was pretty damn thin. Cammac posted an article a little earlier detailing how Page had been on the FBI's radar for years, and despite all that time, they never were able to implicate him in anything. He certainly was interested in making deals with Russia, but even the Russians considered him too stupid to be worth trying to convert as an asset. After Trump added Page to the foreign policy team, the FBI tried to gain a Title I FISA warrant and were denied. This is an extraordinarily rare thing. Only 1 in 10,000 warrants are denied. That's how little they had on Page. So they then created this dossier, lied about it's credibility and origins, and used it to get a warrant 3 months later.

What we don't yet know is to what degree the FBI used the Title 1 authority on Page to spy on the rest of the campaign. There is certainly reason to believe that spying took place. Of particular note is that Admiral Mike Rogers, met with Trump on the first day after a SCIF was set up in Trump Tower (a week after the election), and the day after that, the entire Trump transition team abruptly moved their operation from Trump Tower to Bedminster, NJ with no warning.

What are you talking about? The FISA warrant was denied? We're talking about the Nunes nutlicker memo, right, where the FISA renewal at issue was the third one?

The FBI created the dossier? WTF man? Who claims this? Have you lost your conservative little mind? Why would they need to make up a dossier on a FISA warrant that had ALREADY BEEN RENEWED ONCE already?

This is what I mean Nate - responding to this garbage is a waste of time. I'll respond when you come up with something that isn't flagrantly wrong.

[nate33]

What are you talking about? The FISA warrant was denied? We're talking about the Nunes nutlicker memo, right, where the FISA renewal at issue was the third one?

The FBI created the dossier? WTF man? Who claims this? Have you lost your conservative little mind? Why would they need to make up a dossier on a FISA warrant that had ALREADY BEEN RENEWED ONCE already?

This is what I mean Nate - responding to this garbage is a waste of time. I'll respond when you come up with something that isn't flagrantly wrong.

The FISA warrant was first sought for Page in June of 2016 and was denied.

Then the Steele dossier was disseminated and utilized (along with the media corroboration sourced from the dossier) to successfully obtain the FISA warrant in October of 2016.

It was renewed 3 times after that.

[Zonkerbl]

Nate is a race-baiting pseudo-intellectual. He's no better than your typical stormfront troll.

How does name-calling help though? Nobody's forcing you to read his posts or respond or in fact do anything. Put him on your ignore list if you can't stand it.

Blurring the lines between racists and non-racists is helpful only to racists.

But when did I say Nate wasn't a racist? "How does name calling help" /= "Nate isn't a racist."

Please explain why shouting "racist racist racist" accomplishes anything? I'm curious. What's the debate strategy underlying that technique?

[TGW]

Don't get me wrong. Nate is who he is - I'm not saying he isn't. Nevertheless, the fact that Nate is actually willing to engage in a fact-based conversation makes him orders of magnitude better than the typical garbage you face on the intertubes. Plus I would be a bad Jew if I were to judge Nate. My job is to speak the truth, that's all.

Nate is a race-baiting pseudo-intellectual. He's no better than your typical stormfront troll.

How does name-calling help though? Nobody's forcing you to read his posts or respond or in fact do anything. Put him on your ignore list if you can't stand it.

One: you can't ignore [fake] mods.

Two: Stop coddling racists. You're fake liberal schtick is annoying and tired.

[dckingsfan]

Blurring the lines between racists and non-racists is helpful only to racists.

You are either completely in my camp - or you are a racist

Why on earth should there be middle ground between racists and non-racists? It's a binary thing.

Why do you refuse to believe that there are racist people on this planet?

There are most certainly racists on the planet and in the US. But no, it isn't a binary thing. Some don't even know they are racist. They don't understand which policies we have that are racist - it is an educational and dialog thing - not a lockout labeling thing.

We HAVE made progress over time. I go back to basically the beginning of this chart - this isn't anecdotal.

How did this happen? Yelling at everyone that they are racist - nope, just opposite.

[nate33]

Further, understand that the evidence they had that Page was a spy was pretty damn thin

He publicly acknowledged in 2013 that he works for the Kremlin.

Advising the Kremlin on economic issues isn't the same thing as being a spy with an intent to undermine the U.S. If the Russian government hired a U.S. citizen to advise them on, say, environmental matters, would we label that American a spy?

[stilldropin20]

Because the target of the investigation was Trump?

you didn't answer one of Nate's questions but this one. IMO all of nates questions are relevent but this one you did answer is telling.

Lets all say this out loud 10 times. really. do it. let it sink in. The Obama DOJ/FBI had targeted the GOP nominee as a target of their investigation. DURING AN ELECTION year. a few months from the election.

Right before Obama left office, Obama signed executive orders that all his intelligence, DOJ and FBI teams could unmask and share information with each making it very difficult to figure out who was leaking what. And all the leaks were about Flynn and Trump. And even though those leaks were inconsequential and nothing. they were enough to remove flynn and allow CNN to run with "Russia fever" collusion gate 23 hours per day for just about 1 straight year.

So the Obama led FBI targeting of Trump had one goal. Remove his political capital as a floor. Set him him up for a special prosecutor and impeach him as a ceiling.

And you are telling us that this is OK? To Target political opponents???? That weaponizing the DOJ/FBI against political opponents is good for the country?

Thats uniting the country???

oh, but whent trump fights back and defends himself against this corrupt practice of targeting political opponents? Trump is the great divider??

And Devin Nunes and the house oversight committees are not suppose to look into this? Opine their thoughts on this?

[stilldropin20]

Here, let me emphasize this part for you

You are either completely in my camp - or you are a racist

Why on earth should there be middle ground between racists and non-racists? It's a binary thing.

Why do you refuse to believe that there are racist people on this planet?

There are most certainly racists on the planet and in the US. But no, it isn't a binary thing. Some don't even know they are racist. They don't understand which policies we have that are racist - it is an educational and dialog thing - not a lockout labeling thing.

We HAVE made progress over time. I go back to basically the beginning of this chart - this isn't anecdotal.

[stilldropin20]

I'm reposting this. everyone please read this at least 10 times. this is old news to Nate and I and CNN has not told you about this. It takes a few reads to sink in.

Please, if you care about this issue at all, read carefully what I'm going to say next:

The FISA warrant that the FBI obtained on Carter Page was a Title I FISA warrant, not a Title VII FISA warrant. In a Title VII warrant, the FBI only has access to the subject's direct communication to foreign entities. That's it. It's presumably what was used to wiretap Flynn when he talked to the Russians about the sanctions. The Steele dossier deception allowed the FBI to obtain a Title I FISA warrant.

In a Title I warrant, the government isn't just labeling a person a person-of-interest, they "must show that the U.S. person is engaging in espionage, terrorism, or sabotage." A Title 1 warrant is the most intrusive, exhaustive and far reaching type of search, seizure and surveillance authority permitted. It allows the government to surveil the subject's communication with Person A, and it allows them to then spy on the communications of Person A with Person B. It covers 2 degrees of separation from the initial subject. Furthermore, since the NSA records all phone calls and emails, they can go back in time and review old communications. So the fact that the authority was granted after Page left the Trump campaign is irrelevant. They can still use the authority to go back and review old conversations between anyone Page has ever spoken to and with anyone else two degrees separated from Page. Basically, it gave them access to the communications of virtually the entire Trump team.

Further, understand that the evidence they had that Page was a spy was pretty damn thin. Cammac posted an article a little earlier detailing how Page had been on the FBI's radar for years, and despite all that time, they never were able to implicate him in anything. He certainly was interested in making deals with Russia, but even the Russians considered him too stupid to be worth trying to convert as an asset. After Trump added Page to the foreign policy team, the FBI tried to gain a Title I FISA warrant and were denied. This is an extraordinarily rare thing. Only 1 in 10,000 warrants are denied. That's how little they had on Page. So they then created this dossier, lied about it's credibility and origins, and used it to get a warrant 3 months later.

What we don't yet know is to what degree the FBI used the Title 1 authority on Page to spy on the rest of the campaign. There is certainly reason to believe that spying took place. Of particular note is that Admiral Mike Rogers met with Trump on the first day after a SCIF was set up in Trump Tower (a week after the election), and the day after that, the entire Trump transition team abruptly moved their operation from Trump Tower to Bedminster, NJ with no warning. (Admiral Rogers was the director of the NSA and would know if spying activity was taking place.)