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Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II

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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#161 » by prime1time » Mon May 27, 2019 9:04 pm

nate33 wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:The Stepien writers have done an analysis on hundreds of NBA draft prospects , and one of the main correlations between NCAA production and NBA success is rebounding. A pro player vs inferior competition will generally stand out in terms of their anticipation, reflexes , physical toughness and rebounding is one way to filter these players to the top.

Players like Bradley Beal, Kawhi Leonard, Robert Covington were examples of outlier rebounders for their size in NCAA competition.. not necessarily because they were the biggest players , but because they were reading the game on a higher level and had a certain instinct or “nose” for the ball that can’t be taught.

They ran a similarity comparison and on average the players who comp’d to Reddish in terms of Reb/blk production .. were 6’4 guards.

Cam’s low rebounding numbers for his size are indicative of a general inactivity and sluggishness/poor anticipation that may doom him at the professional level. Deandre Hunter is another player who has an unusually low production level in “activity” stats , which gives me some pause on his upside as well.

Another relevant Stepien article I read discussed the situations when a single team had 3 top 25 prospects on their team (like Duke with Zion, Barrett and Reddish, or Kentucky with Davis, Kidd-Gilchrist and Terrence Jones or Florida with Noah, Horford and Brewer). In almost all cases the 3rd "star" is highly overrated and ends up disappointing in the NBA.
https://www.thestepien.com/2019/03/04/draft-notes-non-zion-duke-freshmen/

With all that being said, they ranked him at 12. And I highly recommend you read his section on Cam possibly going to Atlanta and how he fits.
https://www.thestepien.com/2019/05/16/draft-notes-quick-thoughts-question-answer-dropbox/
That being said, let’s talk about Cam Reddish on Atlanta. Reddish is clearly one of the most divisive prospects in the class. A prospect with excellent height and length, nice fluidity, decent speed, poor burst and explosion, above average but not elite defensive potential and highly diverse shooting arsenal that one might overlook because of distance percentages (silly) and his on the court red flags (how he lacks influence, his horrid 2-point percentage and percentage at the rim, and also lack of decision-making and awareness).

On Atlanta, if he ends up there, Reddish is going to have a very good opportunity to be excellent. It’s not because he’s McGrady. (He’s not.) It’s not because he’s the second coming of Klay Thompson. (He probably wouldn’t be so efficient with such attention given to him.) It’s because Trae Young, like Stephen Curry, can space the floor vertically in the way few players can, while being an even more dynamic passer.

Shooters in Atlanta’s offense are already getting wide open looks from 3 like this one. More than a few of those are going to go to Reddish, either on the direct pass or on ball movement against a rotating defense.

Then there’s the problem for opponents of how to guard both Huerter and Reddish. I’m not sure any team has ever had two players so tall who were so comfortable off of such an array of shooting actions. One of those two is likely to draw a weaker defender in regards to track-and-follow and off-ball switches on screens, and accounting for these two is going to be a nightmare.

Yes, I am not convinced about Reddish’s in-the-run-of-play decision-making, or his ability to score contested shots at the rim. That would usually be a big deal, but Atlanta has a player who is greatly going to simplify decision-making for Reddish. First decision: shoot the ball or not. Possible second decision: swing the ball to a wide open man or pump fake and then shoot the ball off of one dribble. That’s basically it.

If you believe in Cam Reddish’s stroke, and if Reddish gets his eye focus right (something that should be easily fixable with enough practice, though it’s possible he might need contacts, which is also easily fixable) there are a lot of reasons to believe in Reddish’s shot.

There’s the 89 makes from 3 as a freshman and the 267 total attempts. There’s the ten attempts per 40 minutes from 3. And there’s the eye test, where the shot looks fluid and bankable even when it misses.

There are situations and contexts that can mitigate a lot of the concerns we might have about a prospect’s future. Atlanta’s offense is one of them, with three players already that will draw loads of defensive attention (Trae, Collins, Huerter) and with Trae’s ability to see the floor and find whoever has the best opportunity.

We forget now but Otto Porter Jr. shot 23 percent from 3 as a freshman. Kyle Kuzma shot 30 percent for his college career and 63 percent from the free throw line. We can learn a lot from numbers, but it’s clear we can also pay too much attention to run-of-play percentages as a definitive indicator of future success. There are other reasons to bet on Reddish’s shot, especially on a team in which he’ll begin as the 4th player in the pecking order, and more importantly he’ll get tons of open looks just handed to him.

If the Hawks are Warriors East, then there are a lot of reasons to equate a possible Reddish selection back to the Warriors pick of Harrison Barnes.

The attention that Beal would draw, would do the same exact thing for Reddish on the Wiz that Trae Young would do for Cam on the Hawks.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#162 » by payitforward » Mon May 27, 2019 9:07 pm

taj2133 wrote:It looks like coby white is going to the suns somebody is going to drop to you guys ....

Forgive me, but... so what?

Coby White might turn out to be a good player, Hunter might, etc. But this is not a draft where you stay at #9, because there is going to be a "special" player available at that spot. This is a draft where you trade down to try to get 2 mid-R1 picks (14 & 20, 14 & 22, even 20 & 22 plus a little something extra).
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#163 » by taj2133 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:14 pm

Read on Twitter

http://amicohoops.net/cavaliers-have-draft-eyes-for-texas-tech-standout-culver/
If the Cavaliers had landed the No. 2 overall draft pick, they may have settled on Texas Tech shooting guard Jarrett Culver — even over the likes of Ja Morant and R.J. Barrett.

That is how much the Cavs are said to like Culver. It’s hard to know if any of this is true or just a gigantic smokescreen (Culver is about the third draft prospect the Cavs are said to really, really want.)

But for the sake of argument, let’s say Culver is indeed the Cavaliers’ man. Let’s say the New Orleans Pelicans take Zion Williamson at No. 1, the Memphis Grizzlies go with Moran at No. 2, and the Knicks take Barrett after that.

In that scenario, all that stands between the Cavs and Culver is … drumroll, please … LeBron James’ Los Angeles Lakers.

“At No. 5, though, there’s a pretty good chance the Cavs can get their man, if the Lakers pass on him at No. 4 — though that is no guarantee,” Sean Deveney of Sporting News wrote. “Culver had good numbers at the Chicago pre-draft combine, measuring 6-6.75 with a 6-9.5 wingspan.”

The Cavs interviewed Culver last week, and according to sources, walked away feeling as if he would be a great fit in the culture they are trying to build and in new coach John Beilein’s system.

But again, what happens after the top three picks is when the draft mysteries are really expected to begin. Along with Culver, Virginia small forward De’Andre Hunter, Duke wing Cam Reddish, Vanderbilt point guard Darius Garland and rising North Carolina combo guard Coby White are all expected to fall in the Nos. 5-10 range.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#164 » by payitforward » Mon May 27, 2019 9:26 pm

prime1time wrote:...I also said that if you look at Cam as being a role player and limit his offense to places where he can be successful he can be an effective player.

Dude, this is ridiculous.... If I limit anyone's offense to "where he can be successful," then of course he'll be successful -- in those places. You just said he would ("limit... to where he can be successful..."). Which doesn't make him a good player.

prime1time wrote:If Cam and Beal were perfect comparisons we wouldn't have a chance to drsft him. People on this site seem to delight in the fact that Cam doesn't project as an elite player. No one who advocates for drafting Cam disagrees with that.

So... why do I want to pick him at #9?

prime1time wrote:...Beal's success at shooting in the NBA and his similar shooting percentages to Cam provide hope for Cam's shooting ability. Combine that with Reddish improving his ball handling and his size, length and frame and you have a 3-D guy that is worthy of the 9th pick...

No on every count. Nothing about Bradley Beal gives you any reason to speculate anything about Cam Reddish. It's a completely absurd argument.

prime1time wrote:Not to mention that there is always the potential for him to develop into more. ...The team's job at 9, in a subpar draft, is to find potential diamond in the rough players. Players who, given a new role, can be successful.

No on all counts again! How do you know this is a sub-par draft? In fact, drafts aren't very different from one another, year on year. 2011 was gonna be a terrible draft, everybody said so. Except it turned out to be a terrific draft.

prime1time wrote:...I'm not drafting Cam to lead the team. I'm drafting him to be a role player. ...The problem that Reddish faced is that he didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him. ...At the same time, the question is as his ball handling improves, how much will his on court performance increase.

&... another strike out! You don't draft someone "to be a role player."
The fact that a guy "didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him" is not a reason to draft that guy.
How do you know Reddish's ball handling is going to improve?

prime1time wrote:I understand where the people who don't like Cam Reddish are coming from. He's a flawed prospect. But because of that flaw, we have a chance to draft him. Players with his size, length, height and shooting ability don't come along often.

I see... draft him because of his flaws. Great idea!

Moreover, the league is full of players "with his size, length, height." Some of them are good; some of them are bad. As to "shooting ability," he doesn't have much. .499 TS%.

What? Are you friends with his Mother or something?
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#165 » by payitforward » Mon May 27, 2019 9:31 pm

taj2133 wrote:
Read on Twitter

http://amicohoops.net/cavaliers-have-draft-eyes-for-texas-tech-standout-culver/
If the Cavaliers had landed the No. 2 overall draft pick, they may have settled on Texas Tech shooting guard Jarrett Culver — even over the likes of Ja Morant and R.J. Barrett.

That is how much the Cavs are said to like Culver. It’s hard to know if any of this is true or just a gigantic smokescreen (Culver is about the third draft prospect the Cavs are said to really, really want.)

But for the sake of argument, let’s say Culver is indeed the Cavaliers’ man. Let’s say the New Orleans Pelicans take Zion Williamson at No. 1, the Memphis Grizzlies go with Moran at No. 2, and the Knicks take Barrett after that.

In that scenario, all that stands between the Cavs and Culver is … drumroll, please … LeBron James’ Los Angeles Lakers.

“At No. 5, though, there’s a pretty good chance the Cavs can get their man, if the Lakers pass on him at No. 4 — though that is no guarantee,” Sean Deveney of Sporting News wrote. “Culver had good numbers at the Chicago pre-draft combine, measuring 6-6.75 with a 6-9.5 wingspan.”

The Cavs interviewed Culver last week, and according to sources, walked away feeling as if he would be a great fit in the culture they are trying to build and in new coach John Beilein’s system.

But again, what happens after the top three picks is when the draft mysteries are really expected to begin. Along with Culver, Virginia small forward De’Andre Hunter, Duke wing Cam Reddish, Vanderbilt point guard Darius Garland and rising North Carolina combo guard Coby White are all expected to fall in the Nos. 5-10 range.

Ummm, does this affect us in any way? Won't the same guys be gone before #9 rolls around, maybe just in a different order depending on what the Cavs do? So.... ????
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#166 » by prime1time » Mon May 27, 2019 9:52 pm

payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:...I also said that if you look at Cam as being a role player and limit his offense to places where he can be successful he can be an effective player.

Dude, this is ridiculous.... If I limit anyone's offense to "where he can be successful," then of course he'll be successful -- in those places. You just said he would ("limit... to where he can be successful..."). Which doesn't make him a good player.

prime1time wrote:If Cam and Beal were perfect comparisons we wouldn't have a chance to drsft him. People on this site seem to delight in the fact that Cam doesn't project as an elite player. No one who advocates for drafting Cam disagrees with that.

So... why do I want to pick him at #9?

prime1time wrote:...Beal's success at shooting in the NBA and his similar shooting percentages to Cam provide hope for Cam's shooting ability. Combine that with Reddish improving his ball handling and his size, length and frame and you have a 3-D guy that is worthy of the 9th pick...

No on every count. Nothing about Bradley Beal gives you any reason to speculate anything about Cam Reddish. It's a completely absurd argument.

prime1time wrote:Not to mention that there is always the potential for him to develop into more. ...The team's job at 9, in a subpar draft, is to find potential diamond in the rough players. Players who, given a new role, can be successful.

No on all counts again! How do you know this is a sub-par draft? In fact, drafts aren't very different from one another, year on year. 2011 was gonna be a terrible draft, everybody said so. Except it turned out to be a terrific draft.

prime1time wrote:...I'm not drafting Cam to lead the team. I'm drafting him to be a role player. ...The problem that Reddish faced is that he didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him. ...At the same time, the question is as his ball handling improves, how much will his on court performance increase.

&... another strike out! You don't draft someone "to be a role player."
The fact that a guy "didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him" is not a reason to draft that guy.
How do you know Reddish's ball handling is going to improve?

prime1time wrote:I understand where the people who don't like Cam Reddish are coming from. He's a flawed prospect. But because of that flaw, we have a chance to draft him. Players with his size, length, height and shooting ability don't come along often.

I see... draft him because of his flaws. Great idea!

Moreover, the league is full of players "with his size, length, height." Some of them are good; some of them are bad. As to "shooting ability," he doesn't have much. .499 TS%.

What? Are you friends with his Mother or something?

Fine. Who should we take at 9? Easy to talk about players in a vacuum. Mind you, at 9 we are not drafting a role player. So anyone you recommend I expect to have the potential to an efficient high volume scorer.

And to answer some of your questions. I don't know that his ball handling can improve. I do know, however, that ball handling is improvable. It is not an absurd argument to assert that a player who attempted more threes and had a better ft shooting percentage than Beal and college and a significantly better 3 point shooting percentage than Otto Porter as a freshman will be able to shoot at the next level. Reddish's problem was that he forced bad shots in traffic consistently. Also, my point about Reddish's flaws was not to say that we should draft him because of his flaws, but rather to acknowledge the fact that ALL DRAFT PICKS are flawed. The key question is can you put them in a position to succeed or not. So it's not a subpar draft? What should we do?

Also, I don't like the tone of your entire post. No need to be sarcastic when I take time out of my day to discuss with you in earnest. If you don't think we should draft him fine. Not that big of a deal. But when you entire post is sarcastic, with the underlying assumption being that you know so much more than me I have to take exception. Maybe it's time for me to find another board to post on. All in all what a post! Arrogance, condescension and healthy sharing of disrespect.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#167 » by JWizmentality » Mon May 27, 2019 10:19 pm

prime1time wrote:
payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:...I also said that if you look at Cam as being a role player and limit his offense to places where he can be successful he can be an effective player.

Dude, this is ridiculous.... If I limit anyone's offense to "where he can be successful," then of course he'll be successful -- in those places. You just said he would ("limit... to where he can be successful..."). Which doesn't make him a good player.

prime1time wrote:If Cam and Beal were perfect comparisons we wouldn't have a chance to drsft him. People on this site seem to delight in the fact that Cam doesn't project as an elite player. No one who advocates for drafting Cam disagrees with that.

So... why do I want to pick him at #9?

prime1time wrote:...Beal's success at shooting in the NBA and his similar shooting percentages to Cam provide hope for Cam's shooting ability. Combine that with Reddish improving his ball handling and his size, length and frame and you have a 3-D guy that is worthy of the 9th pick...

No on every count. Nothing about Bradley Beal gives you any reason to speculate anything about Cam Reddish. It's a completely absurd argument.

prime1time wrote:Not to mention that there is always the potential for him to develop into more. ...The team's job at 9, in a subpar draft, is to find potential diamond in the rough players. Players who, given a new role, can be successful.

No on all counts again! How do you know this is a sub-par draft? In fact, drafts aren't very different from one another, year on year. 2011 was gonna be a terrible draft, everybody said so. Except it turned out to be a terrific draft.

prime1time wrote:...I'm not drafting Cam to lead the team. I'm drafting him to be a role player. ...The problem that Reddish faced is that he didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him. ...At the same time, the question is as his ball handling improves, how much will his on court performance increase.

&... another strike out! You don't draft someone "to be a role player."
The fact that a guy "didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him" is not a reason to draft that guy.
How do you know Reddish's ball handling is going to improve?

prime1time wrote:I understand where the people who don't like Cam Reddish are coming from. He's a flawed prospect. But because of that flaw, we have a chance to draft him. Players with his size, length, height and shooting ability don't come along often.

I see... draft him because of his flaws. Great idea!

Moreover, the league is full of players "with his size, length, height." Some of them are good; some of them are bad. As to "shooting ability," he doesn't have much. .499 TS%.

What? Are you friends with his Mother or something?

Fine. Who should we take at 9? Easy to talk about players in a vacuum. Mind you, at 9 we are not drafting a role player. So anyone you recommend I expect to have the potential to an efficient high volume scorer.

And to answer some of your questions. I don't know that his ball handling can improve. I do know, however, that ball handling is improvable. It is not an absurd argument to assert that a player who attempted more threes and had a better ft shooting percentage than Beal and college and a significantly better 3 point shooting percentage than Otto Porter as a freshman will be able to shoot at the next level. Reddish's problem was that he forced bad shots in traffic consistently. Also, my point about Reddish's flaws was not to say that we should draft him because of his flaws, but rather to acknowledge the fact that ALL DRAFT PICKS are flawed. The key question is can you put them in a position to succeed or not. So it's not a subpar draft? What should we do?

Also, I don't like the tone of your entire post. No need to be sarcastic when I take time out of my day to discuss with you in earnest. If you don't think we should draft him fine. Not that big of a deal. But when you entire post is sarcastic, with the underlying assumption being that you know so much more than me I have to take exception. Maybe it's time for me to find another board to post on. All in all what a post! Arrogance, condescension and healthy sharing of disrespect.


Sorry dude. It's just par for the course for PIF. The others around here are class though. No need to let him spoil the experience.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#168 » by taj2133 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:39 pm

prime1time wrote:
payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:...I also said that if you look at Cam as being a role player and limit his offense to places where he can be successful he can be an effective player.

Dude, this is ridiculous.... If I limit anyone's offense to "where he can be successful," then of course he'll be successful -- in those places. You just said he would ("limit... to where he can be successful..."). Which doesn't make him a good player.

prime1time wrote:If Cam and Beal were perfect comparisons we wouldn't have a chance to drsft him. People on this site seem to delight in the fact that Cam doesn't project as an elite player. No one who advocates for drafting Cam disagrees with that.

So... why do I want to pick him at #9?

prime1time wrote:...Beal's success at shooting in the NBA and his similar shooting percentages to Cam provide hope for Cam's shooting ability. Combine that with Reddish improving his ball handling and his size, length and frame and you have a 3-D guy that is worthy of the 9th pick...

No on every count. Nothing about Bradley Beal gives you any reason to speculate anything about Cam Reddish. It's a completely absurd argument.

prime1time wrote:Not to mention that there is always the potential for him to develop into more. ...The team's job at 9, in a subpar draft, is to find potential diamond in the rough players. Players who, given a new role, can be successful.

No on all counts again! How do you know this is a sub-par draft? In fact, drafts aren't very different from one another, year on year. 2011 was gonna be a terrible draft, everybody said so. Except it turned out to be a terrific draft.

prime1time wrote:...I'm not drafting Cam to lead the team. I'm drafting him to be a role player. ...The problem that Reddish faced is that he didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him. ...At the same time, the question is as his ball handling improves, how much will his on court performance increase.

&... another strike out! You don't draft someone "to be a role player."
The fact that a guy "didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him" is not a reason to draft that guy.
How do you know Reddish's ball handling is going to improve?

prime1time wrote:I understand where the people who don't like Cam Reddish are coming from. He's a flawed prospect. But because of that flaw, we have a chance to draft him. Players with his size, length, height and shooting ability don't come along often.

I see... draft him because of his flaws. Great idea!

Moreover, the league is full of players "with his size, length, height." Some of them are good; some of them are bad. As to "shooting ability," he doesn't have much. .499 TS%.

What? Are you friends with his Mother or something?

Fine. Who should we take at 9? Easy to talk about players in a vacuum. Mind you, at 9 we are not drafting a role player. So anyone you recommend I expect to have the potential to an efficient high volume scorer.

And to answer some of your questions. I don't know that his ball handling can improve. I do know, however, that ball handling is improvable. It is not an absurd argument to assert that a player who attempted more threes and had a better ft shooting percentage than Beal and college and a significantly better 3 point shooting percentage than Otto Porter as a freshman will be able to shoot at the next level. Reddish's problem was that he forced bad shots in traffic consistently. Also, my point about Reddish's flaws was not to say that we should draft him because of his flaws, but rather to acknowledge the fact that ALL DRAFT PICKS are flawed. The key question is can you put them in a position to succeed or not. So it's not a subpar draft? What should we do?

Also, I don't like the tone of your entire post. No need to be sarcastic when I take time out of my day to discuss with you in earnest. If you don't think we should draft him fine. Not that big of a deal. But when you entire post is sarcastic, with the underlying assumption being that you know so much more than me I have to take exception. Maybe it's time for me to find another board to post on. All in all what a post! Arrogance, condescension and healthy sharing of disrespect.

Just tell the mod nate33 he will deal with it.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#169 » by montestewart » Mon May 27, 2019 10:47 pm

JWizmentality wrote:
prime1time wrote:
payitforward wrote:Dude, this is ridiculous.... If I limit anyone's offense to "where he can be successful," then of course he'll be successful -- in those places. You just said he would ("limit... to where he can be successful..."). Which doesn't make him a good player.


So... why do I want to pick him at #9?


No on every count. Nothing about Bradley Beal gives you any reason to speculate anything about Cam Reddish. It's a completely absurd argument.


No on all counts again! How do you know this is a sub-par draft? In fact, drafts aren't very different from one another, year on year. 2011 was gonna be a terrible draft, everybody said so. Except it turned out to be a terrific draft.


&... another strike out! You don't draft someone "to be a role player."
The fact that a guy "didn't have an answer for the way teams tried to defend him" is not a reason to draft that guy.
How do you know Reddish's ball handling is going to improve?


I see... draft him because of his flaws. Great idea!

Moreover, the league is full of players "with his size, length, height." Some of them are good; some of them are bad. As to "shooting ability," he doesn't have much. .499 TS%.

What? Are you friends with his Mother or something?

Fine. Who should we take at 9? Easy to talk about players in a vacuum. Mind you, at 9 we are not drafting a role player. So anyone you recommend I expect to have the potential to an efficient high volume scorer.

And to answer some of your questions. I don't know that his ball handling can improve. I do know, however, that ball handling is improvable. It is not an absurd argument to assert that a player who attempted more threes and had a better ft shooting percentage than Beal and college and a significantly better 3 point shooting percentage than Otto Porter as a freshman will be able to shoot at the next level. Reddish's problem was that he forced bad shots in traffic consistently. Also, my point about Reddish's flaws was not to say that we should draft him because of his flaws, but rather to acknowledge the fact that ALL DRAFT PICKS are flawed. The key question is can you put them in a position to succeed or not. So it's not a subpar draft? What should we do?

Also, I don't like the tone of your entire post. No need to be sarcastic when I take time out of my day to discuss with you in earnest. If you don't think we should draft him fine. Not that big of a deal. But when you entire post is sarcastic, with the underlying assumption being that you know so much more than me I have to take exception. Maybe it's time for me to find another board to post on. All in all what a post! Arrogance, condescension and healthy sharing of disrespect.


Sorry dude. It's just par for the course for PIF. The others around here are class though. No need to let him spoil the experience.

PIF was sarcastic you say? Stop the presses!

prime1time, PIF has been advocating for a trade down scenario. He seems to view the talent in the draft as relatively deep and interchangeable from a risk/reward perspective. Lacking a near certainty of an option, why shouldn't the Wizards instead try their luck on two (or possibly three) maybes. I don't follow prospects as closely as many here, so that would to me be an interesting discussion.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#170 » by JWizmentality » Mon May 27, 2019 10:56 pm

montestewart wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
prime1time wrote:Fine. Who should we take at 9? Easy to talk about players in a vacuum. Mind you, at 9 we are not drafting a role player. So anyone you recommend I expect to have the potential to an efficient high volume scorer.

And to answer some of your questions. I don't know that his ball handling can improve. I do know, however, that ball handling is improvable. It is not an absurd argument to assert that a player who attempted more threes and had a better ft shooting percentage than Beal and college and a significantly better 3 point shooting percentage than Otto Porter as a freshman will be able to shoot at the next level. Reddish's problem was that he forced bad shots in traffic consistently. Also, my point about Reddish's flaws was not to say that we should draft him because of his flaws, but rather to acknowledge the fact that ALL DRAFT PICKS are flawed. The key question is can you put them in a position to succeed or not. So it's not a subpar draft? What should we do?

Also, I don't like the tone of your entire post. No need to be sarcastic when I take time out of my day to discuss with you in earnest. If you don't think we should draft him fine. Not that big of a deal. But when you entire post is sarcastic, with the underlying assumption being that you know so much more than me I have to take exception. Maybe it's time for me to find another board to post on. All in all what a post! Arrogance, condescension and healthy sharing of disrespect.


Sorry dude. It's just par for the course for PIF. The others around here are class though. No need to let him spoil the experience.

PIF was sarcastic you say? Stop the presses!

prime1time, PIF has been advocating for a trade down scenario. He seems to view the talent in the draft as relatively deep and interchangeable from a risk/reward perspective. Lacking a near certainty of an option, why shouldn't the Wizards instead try their luck on two (or possibly three) maybes. I don't follow prospects as closely as many here, so that would to me be an interesting discussion.


Look how simple that was. :lol:
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#171 » by prime1time » Mon May 27, 2019 10:58 pm

montestewart wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
prime1time wrote:Fine. Who should we take at 9? Easy to talk about players in a vacuum. Mind you, at 9 we are not drafting a role player. So anyone you recommend I expect to have the potential to an efficient high volume scorer.

And to answer some of your questions. I don't know that his ball handling can improve. I do know, however, that ball handling is improvable. It is not an absurd argument to assert that a player who attempted more threes and had a better ft shooting percentage than Beal and college and a significantly better 3 point shooting percentage than Otto Porter as a freshman will be able to shoot at the next level. Reddish's problem was that he forced bad shots in traffic consistently. Also, my point about Reddish's flaws was not to say that we should draft him because of his flaws, but rather to acknowledge the fact that ALL DRAFT PICKS are flawed. The key question is can you put them in a position to succeed or not. So it's not a subpar draft? What should we do?

Also, I don't like the tone of your entire post. No need to be sarcastic when I take time out of my day to discuss with you in earnest. If you don't think we should draft him fine. Not that big of a deal. But when you entire post is sarcastic, with the underlying assumption being that you know so much more than me I have to take exception. Maybe it's time for me to find another board to post on. All in all what a post! Arrogance, condescension and healthy sharing of disrespect.


Sorry dude. It's just par for the course for PIF. The others around here are class though. No need to let him spoil the experience.

PIF was sarcastic you say? Stop the presses!

prime1time, PIF has been advocating for a trade down scenario. He seems to view the talent in the draft as relatively deep and interchangeable from a risk/reward perspective. Lacking a near certainty of an option, why shouldn't the Wizards instead try their luck on two (or possibly three) maybes. I don't follow prospects as closely as many here, so that would to me be an interesting discussion.

I'm perfectly fine with a trade down. I approach the draft with a healthy acknowledgment of my limited knowledge, lack of basketball insight and inability to predict the future. All I was saying in my posts was that drafting Cam would be my ideal scenario. If the Wiz trade down and find two or three studs I'll be very happy. At the end of the day, I just want to cheer for a good team.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#172 » by payitforward » Mon May 27, 2019 11:45 pm

prime1time wrote:...I don't like the tone of your entire post. No need to be sarcastic when I take time out of my day to discuss with you in earnest. If you don't think we should draft him fine. Not that big of a deal. But when you entire post is sarcastic, with the underlying assumption being that you know so much more than me I have to take exception. Maybe it's time for me to find another board to post on. All in all what a post! Arrogance, condescension and healthy sharing of disrespect.

You're right. Will you very kindly accept my apology?

It had nothing to do with you -- I'm just long-term frustrated with the franchise. Pretty sure that's not your fault! :) Give me a pass, please. & if I'm snarky again, please call me on it immediately.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#173 » by payitforward » Mon May 27, 2019 11:49 pm

Aaaahhh, I see a few people got a whack in! That's ok; whenever it happens, it's usually b/c I deserve it! :)
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#174 » by payitforward » Tue May 28, 2019 1:02 am

prime1time wrote:
montestewart wrote:prime1time, PIF has been advocating for a trade down scenario. He seems to view the talent in the draft as relatively deep and interchangeable from a risk/reward perspective. Lacking a near certainty of an option, why shouldn't the Wizards instead try their luck on two (or possibly three) maybes. I don't follow prospects as closely as many here, so that would to me be an interesting discussion.

I'm perfectly fine with a trade down. I approach the draft with a healthy acknowledgment of my limited knowledge, lack of basketball insight and inability to predict the future. All I was saying in my posts was that drafting Cam would be my ideal scenario. If the Wiz trade down and find two or three studs I'll be very happy. At the end of the day, I just want to cheer for a good team.

Yes, that's my point of view this year: trade down. 2 main reasons:

1. look at the history of the draft, & you see that there are plenty of good players taken from the middle of R1 right down to the end of R2 -- some of the best in the NBA, for that matter. That fact also points to how much of a role chance plays in drafting. The only way to combat chance is to increase your chances.

2. Although there's always something to be said for that strategy, it fits our situation especially well this year. We have a pretty empty roster at this point. Only 5 guys are sure to be here, & 1 of them is injured & can't play. Two others have no role whatever in our future. So, in a sense, all we have is Beal & Troy Brown (& Wall when he recovers).

I assume we'll re-sign Bryant & Sato, but still... that's only 1/3 of a roster! Plus we have one really out-sized salary.

In short, we're not trying to figure out how we can fit someone in. Instead, this is the perfect time to acquire at least 3 rookies (in fact, ideally, I'd like 4 of 'em -- but that's kind of an eye-roller for most people).

That makes Cam Reddish irrelevant from my POV. I don't look for him to be a good NBA player, but in a trade-down scenario he wouldn't be a factor.

Hey, I could be wrong about Cam. Way wrong. Stick around, please, & if in retrospect Reddish looks like the guy we could have & should have taken, you have a free pass to beat me up about it! Fair enough?

The guys I do like? Not to take @9 but to try to get 2 of them with a trade-down & a 3d by buying a R2 pick. These are in approximate order & off the top of my head. I'm sure I am missing a couple:

Brandon Clarke
Goga Bitadze
Luka Samanic
P.J. Washington
Grant Williams
Mattisse Thybulle
Keldon Johnson
Dylan Windler
Darius Bazley (this year's Mitchell Robinson?)
Nicolas Claxton
Killian Tillie
Jalen McDaniels
Charles Bassey
Dedric Lawson

The truth is... that's too many guys for my rough & ready ranking to mean much. Still, I could come away with 2 guys out of the top 7 & buy a pick to get 1 guy out of the last 7, I'd jump.

OTOH, if I could get Garland @ #9, I'd be very very tempted to forego trading down (buy 2 R2 picks? :) ). But... he'll be gone by then.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#175 » by doclinkin » Tue May 28, 2019 1:21 am

Illmatic12 wrote:The Stepien writers have done an analysis on hundreds of NBA draft prospects , and one of the main correlations between NCAA production and NBA success is rebounding. A pro player vs inferior competition will generally stand out in terms of their anticipation, reflexes , physical toughness and rebounding is one way to filter these players to the top.

Players like Bradley Beal, Kawhi Leonard, Robert Covington were examples of outlier rebounders for their size in NCAA competition.. not necessarily because they were the biggest players , but because they were reading the game on a higher level and had a certain instinct or “nose” for the ball that can’t be taught.

They ran a similarity comparison and on average the players who comp’d to Reddish in terms of Reb/blk production .. were 6’4 guards.

Cam’s low rebounding numbers for his size are indicative of a general inactivity and sluggishness/poor anticipation that may doom him at the professional level. Deandre Hunter is another player who has an unusually low production level in “activity” stats , which gives me some pause on his upside as well.



I'd slice it even finer and suggest Defensive rebounds are the stat that translates best. (*)

Offensive rebounds are sometimes a signal of a player who is not falling back on D and yes may be more athletic or taller than the other guys on the court, which is good, but may not have situational awareness. Stat padding. Defensive boards show positioning, boxing out, etc more than jumping over the top of players. At the next level there will be guys who are bigger, bouncier, but players like Draymond and Millsapp succeed despite being floorbound, because they understand the leverage and spacing game. IF a player shows they can board on the defensive end in college against ranked competition then they generally are able to do so at the next level. It also seems to suggest they will do pretty well in other stat measures. Makes sense to me. Defensive boards show you know where the ball is, where your teammates are, where the opponents are, and have the instinct to go get it before others react.

(*Defensive boards relative to position. PG vs PG, SG vs SG etc. If a player is a tweener you have to compare them against the bigger of the two positions they play).

It's one of my ball-smarts measures that has a pretty good correlation with on court success. Age is a factor too I'm discovering. If a young cat can board at that end then they have the software to understand the game better than most and their upside is higher. Brad looked good being so young and solid in all measures.

In the case of Hunter having watched him defend, he was given a different role on a team that had the best defense in the NCAA. Whatever he was doing it was not harming team defense. Generally he was smothering opposing PGs and wings. If you look at their EFG% their averages dropped when playing Virginia. HIs (very deep) front court was rebounding misses that he was causing when they actually did shoot. And their attempts dropped as well in trying to get the shot off. Can he rebound? I don't know, and yeah maybe he was passive in some respects. But I do see where he will be able to do the thing he does well at the next level: stay in front of his man, challenge shots, take up a lot of lateral space on defense and not be bodied off his spot.

Incidentally his teammate Ty Jerome was a sneaky good solid rebounder for his position. He has excellent ball smarts indicators.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#176 » by doclinkin » Tue May 28, 2019 1:51 am

payitforward wrote:Ummm, does this affect us in any way? Won't the same guys be gone before #9 rolls around, maybe just in a different order depending on what the Cavs do? So.... ????


If it knocked Garland down to a pick that is more attainable for us in a trade up then maybe I'd be for it. Though I don't see what we have to offer. I get a feel that he would be a good fit on offense next to Beal. Our own Dame/CJ pairing, where Garland's range would allow Beal to do even more Bradleyesque things, more room in the mid range, more open shots coming off screens, more room to attack the rim if teams aren't sure which player to key on. This is my only trade up spotlight, or the only one plausible. I don't think he falls past LA, but if he did slip I'd see if we could put together a package to hop up a spot or two. Maybe an option to swap picks in future years would be enough.

in general I think yeah we could get a solid player or two if we did trade down. But, I honestly don't think we will get takers for our pick. Celtics are trying to put together trade packages for a big splash. Atlanta has a mess of pics but why would they swap up one spot? Either we want the same player as them, or we don't and they get him for free anyway.

And if the Spurs were trying to trade up I'd be really leery of trying to trade that pick and try to guess who was on the board they were trying to make a play for, so I could snatch him myself.

Maybe the Nets picks. All of or some combo of 17, 27 and 31?

To me high round 2 players are better than late 1sts due to contract issues and the Gilbert rule.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#177 » by mhd » Tue May 28, 2019 2:09 am

I still don't see how LAL pass on Garland. He's represented by Klutch, and he fills a huge need as a quick PG scorer. He could play with Lonzo and is by far the best talent at 4. If the Cavs take Culver, then the Suns take White, the Bulls probably take Hunter, and Atlanta might take Sekou (fearing we'd take him and knowing they could get Hayes at 10 since we aren't taking a center at 9). That would suck for us honestly unless we love Bol. Who would Boston want at 9? Ainge could conceivably love Bol.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#178 » by doclinkin » Tue May 28, 2019 2:25 am

mhd wrote:I still don't see how LAL pass on Garland. He's represented by Klutch, and he fills a huge need as a quick PG scorer. He could play with Lonzo and is by far the best talent at 4. If the Cavs take Culver, then the Suns take White, the Bulls probably take Hunter, and Atlanta might take Sekou (fearing we'd take him and knowing they could get Hayes at 10 since we aren't taking a center at 9). That would suck for us honestly unless we love Bol. Who would Boston want at 9? Ainge could conceivably love Bol.


Ainge would not love Bol. He has a system that accounts for body language and eye movement etc in character assessment and player development. A player who loafs and sulks and fights with his coach would be a no go for Ainge.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#179 » by mhd » Tue May 28, 2019 2:27 am

doclinkin wrote:
mhd wrote:I still don't see how LAL pass on Garland. He's represented by Klutch, and he fills a huge need as a quick PG scorer. He could play with Lonzo and is by far the best talent at 4. If the Cavs take Culver, then the Suns take White, the Bulls probably take Hunter, and Atlanta might take Sekou (fearing we'd take him and knowing they could get Hayes at 10 since we aren't taking a center at 9). That would suck for us honestly unless we love Bol. Who would Boston want at 9? Ainge could conceivably love Bol.


Ainge would not love Bol. He has a system that accounts for body language and eye movement etc in character assessment and player development. A player who loafs and sulks and fights with his coach would be a no go for Ainge.



And yet he traded for Kyrie :)
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#180 » by Dat2U » Tue May 28, 2019 2:37 am

mhd wrote:I still don't see how LAL pass on Garland. He's represented by Klutch, and he fills a huge need as a quick PG scorer. He could play with Lonzo and is by far the best talent at 4. If the Cavs take Culver, then the Suns take White, the Bulls probably take Hunter, and Atlanta might take Sekou (fearing we'd take him and knowing they could get Hayes at 10 since we aren't taking a center at 9). That would suck for us honestly unless we love Bol. Who would Boston want at 9? Ainge could conceivably love Bol.


So let's assume no trade down scenarios exist. No one wants to move up. Garland at 4. Culver, 5. White, 6. Hunter, 7. Doumbouya is snatched up at 8? What do you do?

Here's what my board would look like:

1. C Goga Bitadze
2. C Bol Bol
3. PF Brandon Clarke
4. SG Tyler Herro
5. C Jaxson Hayes
6. PF P.J. Washington
7. C Mfiondu Kabengele

Lots of centers on that list. Should we reach for a non-C instead? I admit I do think Bitadze will be very good and I'm confident about that so I'm torn.

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