Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[closg00]

Glad you are back-peddling from bestowing "greatness" on your Ernest. Lets all just enjoy this season? It's been fun to watch.


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[montestewart]

..and the "great" tag is bestowed upon person X when said person has a record of "great" achievement to look back on. Ten years of misery and missteps back to winning basketball doesn't even begin to touch "Great"

great, /ɡrāt/, adjective
adjective: great; comparative adjective: greater; superlative adjective: greatest

of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average

There's also grate. And don't forget the country cousin of eating crow, which is crow: to talk in a way that shows too much pride about something you have done; to brag loudly or joyfully.

Personally, I don't mind EG lovers. This is a sports message board, and as I've said all along and predicted on numerous occasions multiple times, bragging rights come with the prediction package. "EGinstein" crowing is accompanied by my team doing well. Can't complain about that.

I'm not seriously questioning my doubts, but EG and RW aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and they've earned that. Winning answers all questions.

[dckingsfan]

Agreed Monty... Now that we have cleared up those two things, I am good. You can not like EG and still be a Wizards fan and the bar for great is very, very low.

[TGW]

Agreed Monty... Now that we have cleared up those two things, I am good. You can not like EG and still be a Wizards fan and the bar for great is very, very low.

Of course you can...that's the most moronic concept ever. So I have to like Dan Snyder and Bruce Allen because I'm a fan of the Redskins? Yea ok.

So even going by millelie's "standards" of being a fan, even he wasn't a fan:

milellie111 wrote:
Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.

[pineappleheadindc]

TGW, I'm pretty sure you and dckingsfan are saying the exact same thing. You may have misread his post.

[doclinkin]

TGW, I'm pretty sure you and dckingsfan are saying the exact same thing. You may have misread his post.

Oh they are. They are arguing with the millie/hands contention that if you like the current team then you are tacitly approving of GMEG.

It has to be an awkward position though, hating GMEG and yet loving the team he has assembled. Discomfort magnified on here by the fact that somehow the optimist position was claimed by some of the less pleasant and more grating personalities, who jump in front of the spotlight as if they themselves made the moves. And who will trumpet wrongheaded moves and then hope they are forgotten when they prove wrong; but still shout how they were proved right all along when the results end up positive. Like: "John Wall sucks! This other dude is the future! Oh wait he's not? He doesn't? Hey we're winning? See! I told you we'd be good! I said it all along! Jump on the bandwagon, I said it for years!"

Look, we all knew Ted's plan was to raze the squad and rebuild from ground zero. Yes, he gave the job of doing so to GMEG, who had built the squad that needed deconstruction in the first place, when he might have chosen someone else. Ted kept the front office in place and gave them 3 years to show something. Wait no, one more... wait, one more.... as injuries, strikes, etc gave excuses as usual. And one lesson GMEG has learned over the years is to save his tail. He does his best work when under the gun.

So we underwent a designed suck, to accumulate cheap good talent through the lotto. Then quickly tried to reverse course with trades for pricey vets. Some of us argued that we should have taken one more year to tank, but seemed like we were in danger of losing the faith of our young star, and needed to build a culture of a winning attitude. More importantly we were losing $$$ in gate receipts, TV deals, merchandise, all while the market was ripe for takeover (since the Skins continued to stumble bumble and fumble. (Hell to stay afloat though we were selling tickets to fans of the opposing team, demoralizing to the diehards and players). So we hauled back on the throttle pulled out of the designed nosedive and tried to get ourselves back on an ascent trajectory.

And yes despite wasted and blown draft picks and squandered opportunities to shore up the long term future, we ended up with a winning formula: assemble a small core of talent to build around, then surround them with late career vets who have a good attitude and are desperate to win, desperate to prove themselves and rejuvenate their careers, earn their final contracts and willing to pass on hard earned wisdom to young players coming up.

Fans can argue with the methodology while appreciating current results, and still remain skeptical about the long term outlook, wishing we'd gotten more bang for the suck and built a realistic Finals contender, or even a dynasty. We have a talented and developing young core. Landed top 3 picks from weak draft years, one of whom is a franchise caliber allstar, the others should prove a good chemistry fit next to him if health and development allow. For our other draft picks we got a few years rental of Nene, a decent starting center on a reasonable contract, and a taste of the playoffs last year.

Is our future sure and certain? No. And given the lessons of the past there is room for skepticism. No D league team of our own to build a team philosophy, no long term developing talent beyond our backcourt (and maybe a developing Big if you overlook significant flaws and are sunnily optimistic about what skills he has shown) and we rely on renewal by late career vets year after year plus the possibility of a hometown star joining the squad when his contract comes due. If he decides to return to the motherland and accept whatever contract we can throw at him with the huge capspace we will have created (expanded by the new TV deal, but complicated by the fact that this deal means many teams will have wiggle room as well). Thats our plan for the future. One guy. Plus the few guys we got from all of that suck getting a whole lot better at just the right time. Thing is it is possible,sounds like he even wants to come here, so you never know, we may get lucky. We may land him, he may stay healthy (!!) we may win, we may contend for the whole thing, we may land players who want to come here even on a discount to join a winning squad, yeah... We may get lucky. It has happened before, sometimes, even to the Long Suffering Bullets faithful.

Still, to get that one guy, and to land any free agents to fill in around him, we need to look like a viable squad. Win now, win, win, learn to win, keep winning. And the formula seems to be working: keep Ernie on a short term contract contingent upon constantly winning (okay allow him the handicap of a weakened and anemic Eastern Conference). Hire hungry and desperate veteran free agents, and see what them young pups can do.

And for fans desperate for a team they can be proud of, it damn sure feels a lot better rooting for a winning squad.

The thing that makes reasonable fans nervous is how much hinges on the next couple years. And looking backward at the record of the decision makers who got us here, to predict the future. And wondering if we have the winning formula, since given the inability to draft well (overall, compared to the teams who build yearly championship threats) our margin for error is very very thin. And nobody wants to waste the opportunities we have, and go through that interminable period of sustained suck that our current GM has on his resume. (Right there, in bold faced type, just a few lines above that MIlwaukee Bucks suck, sandwiched between two rebuilding jobs and a few fun playoff appearances).

[milellie111]

Agreed Monty... Now that we have cleared up those two things, I am good. You can not like EG and still be a Wizards fan and the bar for great is very, very low.

Of course you can...that's the most moronic concept ever. So I have to like Dan Snyder and Bruce Allen because I'm a fan of the Redskins? Yea ok.

So even going by millelie's "standards" of being a fan, even he wasn't a fan:

milellie111 wrote:
Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.

A fan can voice his displeasure with management if the team is bottom of the barrel at the time, in disarray and performing horribly. Actually that is what a fan is expected to do. However, when a team is coming off a successful playoff season and looks to be a contender for the ECF, has a promising roster and the future looks bright, still calling for the heads of management and reflecting on missed draft picks seasons ago casts doubt on whether you are a true fan of the team, it's succes and who's responsible for it, or whether you are more of an agenda driven troll. Still focused on the bad when so much good is in front of your eyes.

If Dan Snyder changed his ways, hired a real GM that had the Redskins in the playoffs and a top team in the NFC, true fans would not still request him to sell the team.

[nate33]

FWIW, it was I who "reflected on missed draft picks". I think EG has done a real good job of sifting through the scrap heap of free agency to find some real gems, and his trades have been solid lately. But when you (or someone else) praises his drafting, I have to speak up. EG has done several things well, but drafting simply isn't one of them and I'm not going to allow such statements to go unchallenged.

[mhd]

FWIW, it was I who "reflected on missed draft picks". I think EG has done a real good job of sifting through the scrap heap of free agency to find some real gems, and his trades have been solid lately. But when you (or someone else) praises his drafting, I have to speak up. EG has done several things well, but drafting simply isn't one of them and I'm not going to allow such statements to go unchallenged.

I'll say this, even if the Blatche, McGee, and Young picks were not great for this team, they are all NBA players that far exceeded their draft position. They were all good picks based off of talent.

[nate33]

FWIW, it was I who "reflected on missed draft picks". I think EG has done a real good job of sifting through the scrap heap of free agency to find some real gems, and his trades have been solid lately. But when you (or someone else) praises his drafting, I have to speak up. EG has done several things well, but drafting simply isn't one of them and I'm not going to allow such statements to go unchallenged.

I'll say this, even if the Blatche, McGee, and Young picks were not great for this team, they are all NBA players that far exceeded their draft position. They were all good picks based off of talent.

Meh. Blatche certainly exceeded his draft position but I wouldn't be so generous about the others. Both guys are regular-rotation players who come off the bench. That's about what you expect from picks in the mid teens. They weren't bad picks, but they weren't particularly good picks either.

[pineappleheadindc]

Agreed Monty... Now that we have cleared up those two things, I am good. You can not like EG and still be a Wizards fan and the bar for great is very, very low.

Of course you can...that's the most moronic concept ever. So I have to like Dan Snyder and Bruce Allen because I'm a fan of the Redskins? Yea ok.

So even going by millelie's "standards" of being a fan, even he wasn't a fan:

milellie111 wrote:
Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.

A fan can voice his displeasure with management if the team is bottom of the barrel at the time, in disarray and performing horribly. Actually that is what a fan is expected to do. However, when a team is coming off a successful playoff season and looks to be a contender for the ECF, has a promising roster and the future looks bright, still calling for the heads of management and reflecting on missed draft picks seasons ago casts doubt on whether you are a true fan of the team, it's succes and who's responsible for it, or whether you are more of an agenda driven troll. Still focused on the bad when so much good is in front of your eyes.

If Dan Snyder changed his ways, hired a real GM that had the Redskins in the playoffs and a top team in the NFC, true fans would not still request him to sell the team.

This is a really well-written, thoughtful, cogent post.

[pineappleheadindc]

Doc, really liked and agreed with you post, above.

[montestewart]

Look, we all knew Ted's plan was to raze the squad and rebuild from ground zero.

The tear down began before Leonsis bought the team, with the Pollin Estate getting rid of Jamison, Butler, Haywood, and Stevenson. I'm guessing they would have moved Arenas too, if they could have (he was suspended at the time). Contemporaneous press reports indicated this was done to reduce the team's long term salary obligations, making the team's asking price more attractive to Leonsis.

Great post. Not really HOF, more Pantheon of Reason.

[TGW]

I can voice my displeasure with management because I have been a fan of the team for 25 years...I'm not going to let some bumbling troll dictate whether I'm allowed to do that or not. But that's beside the facts—Grunfeld executed a simple order, and that was to tank, accumulate high draft picks, and try not to screw it up. In my opinion, he screwed it up. He made two good draft picks during the rebuild (both pretty much no brainers) and the others are either out of the league or were traded for 30 year olds. The Wizards, despite having two very good young players, are one of the oldest teams in the league. Who knows how long they can depend on Pierce, Nene, Miller, and Gortat in the near future.

I'm displeased with management because I think the team, as currently constructed, is at is highest potential. They had four years of lottery picks and capspace to build a contender, and they aren't. They are simply a good team in a weak conference. Unless Porter becomes the next Durant, or they land the real Durant (both of which are highly unlikely scenarios), they probably aren't getting past the second round.

Grunfeld executed the easiest fix available to save his ass.

[daSwami]

A fan can voice his displeasure with management if the team is bottom of the barrel at the time, in disarray and performing horribly. Actually that is what a fan is expected to do. However, when a team is coming off a successful playoff season and looks to be a contender for the ECF, has a promising roster and the future looks bright, still calling for the heads of management and reflecting on missed draft picks seasons ago casts doubt on whether you are a true fan of the team, it's succes and who's responsible for it, or whether you are more of an agenda driven troll. Still focused on the bad when so much good is in front of your eyes.

If Dan Snyder changed his ways, hired a real GM that had the Redskins in the playoffs and a top team in the NFC, true fans would not still request him to sell the team.

[DCZards]

The Wizards, despite having two very good young players, are one of the oldest teams in the league. Who knows how long they can depend on Pierce, Nene, Miller, and Gortat in the near future.

Pierce is on a two-year contract and will probably be gone after that...freeing up cap space. Nene will be gone in two years...also freeing up considerable cap space. Miller is likely gone after this season. And Gortat is 30 years old with not a lot of mileage since he was primarily a backup during the first part of his career. I expect the Zards to get several more years of solid-to-great production out of Marcin.

Meanwhile, all of these "old" players (along with a couple of other old geezers, Butler and Gooden) are helping the Zards win games and giving our young core (Wall, Porter, Beal) an opportunity to learn, develop AND win at the same time. These old guys are helping to create the kind of winning environment and culture that is absolutely necessary if Washington is going to attract a top free agent--like a Durant--with that available cap space.

The "one of the oldest teams in the league" narrative is overplayed...and, imo, is just an effort to find a way to criticize the team that EG has put together. I prefer the Zards situation to having a team made up almost entirely of youngsters with "potential"...a la Philly.

[payitforward]

...A fan can voice his displeasure with management if the team is bottom of the barrel at the time, in disarray and performing horribly. Actually that is what a fan is expected to do. However, when a team is coming off a successful playoff season and looks to be a contender for the ECF, has a promising roster and the future looks bright, still calling for the heads of management and reflecting on missed draft picks seasons ago casts doubt on whether you are a true fan of the team, it's succes and who's responsible for it, or whether you are more of an agenda driven troll. Still focused on the bad when so much good is in front of your eyes.

If Dan Snyder changed his ways, hired a real GM that had the Redskins in the playoffs and a top team in the NFC, true fans would not still request him to sell the team.

Milellie -- do a google search on "counter-factual conditional" and you'll learn why your last sentence is meaningless.

I'm enjoying the current season, just as I enjoyed our success last season. And, for sure, Ernie had a *lot* better off-season this year than the previous one!! I've also said that. Not to mention that no one -- not Ernie nor anyone -- could have, would have, or should have predicted the performance we're getting from Ras Butler. Think about it: would he have been the 15th man, in by the skin of his teeth, if any of this could have been predicted?

Still, so far so good. And Ernie gets credit for doing well last Summer/Fall. But... if he gets credit for that, he also has to get the comments he deserves for screwing up R2 in '13 and in '12, totally botching the previous year draft, signing horrendous players like Maynor and Harrington, having no Plan B when Okafor went down -- so that we had to pay $14m for Gortat's last $7m contract year and give up a valuable R1 pick for the privilege.

And his successes were to some degree aided by unexpected strokes of luck -- we had no chance at Wall until the ping pong balls gave him to us. We'd have drafted what #8 in 2013, except for the ping pong balls? Mclemore? C.J. McCollum?

All the same, the future may prove you right. But that's what it will take. If we get Durant, and we're title contenders then -- why not? -- Ernie will have become a terrific GM at the end of his career (great? no -- but there are very few of those). But, first that has to happen! Until then -- good work last off-season, good work drafting Beal, and we're having a very enjoyable season so far. May it continue!!

[payitforward]

The Wizards, despite having two very good young players, are one of the oldest teams in the league. Who knows how long they can depend on Pierce, Nene, Miller, and Gortat in the near future.

Pierce is on a two-year contract and will probably be gone after that...freeing up cap space. Nene will be gone in two years...also freeing up considerable cap space. Miller is likely gone after this season. And Gortat is 30 years old with not a lot of mileage since he was primarily a backup during the first part of his career. I expect the Zards to get several more years of solid-to-great production out of Marcin.

Meanwhile, all of these "old" players (along with a couple of other old geezers, Butler and Gooden) are helping the Zards win games and giving our young core (Wall, Porter, Beal) an opportunity to learn, develop AND win at the same time. These old guys are helping to create the kind of winning environment and culture that is absolutely necessary if Washington is going to attract a top free agent--like a Durant--with that available cap space.

The "one of the oldest teams in the league" narrative is overplayed...and, imo, is just an effort to find a way to criticize the team that EG has put together. I prefer the Zards situation to having a team made up almost entirely of youngsters with "potential"...a la Philly.

No, Zards. First off, I agree that signing Gortat was a good move. I've always wanted him -- since he was w/ Orlando -- and he's not overpaid @ $12m (which I've also said consistently).

But "one of the oldest teams in the league" isn't a "narrative," it's a fact. And your own point "our young core (is) ...Wall, Porter, Beal" proves it: with a #1, a #6, a #3, another #3, four other mid-R1 picks, a bunch of high R2 picks, a colossal amount of potential cap room for FAs (from RL's contract for example), and other assets I'm not mentioning, Ernie managed to assemble "Wall, Beal, Porter." Period. That's it. That's his yield from those resources.

Hey, maybe it'll all turn out fine. Results are all that counts in a context defined 100% by competition. If so, cool. But... it ain't happened yet.

[stevemcqueen1]

The "one of the oldest teams in the league" narrative is overplayed...and, imo, is just an effort to find a way to criticize the team that EG has put together. I prefer the Zards situation to having a team made up almost entirely of youngsters with "potential"...a la Philly.

Yeah the oldest team in the league criticism is pretty meaningless when the foundation players are young. Our old players are role players. Important season to season. But not the guys you expect to lead you to winning seasons for a decade. Every good team spends each of their offseasons working to maintain a quality supporting cast around their foundation players. They constantly bring in new vet talent on short term contracts to replace the older guys as the age out. That's how it works. And when you're winning and your foundation for success is sound, quality vet role players will constantly desire to play for you.

Most of the teams that actually win and go deep into the postseason have a lot of 30+ players. Saying a team is old isn't much of a criticism of their chance for success. Teams with too many young players, OTOH, usually lose and get broken up. And teams that successfully make that transition from young loser with potential to legit competitor almost always make some sort of trade of young talent/draft picks for older players with questionable future value but winning experience.

[stevemcqueen1]

But "one of the oldest teams in the league" isn't a "narrative," it's a fact. And your own point "our young core (is) ...Wall, Porter, Beal" proves it: with a #1, a #6, a #3, another #3, four other mid-R1 picks, a bunch of high R2 picks, a colossal amount of potential cap room for FAs (from RL's contract for example), and other assets I'm not mentioning, Ernie managed to assemble "Wall, Beal, Porter." Period. That's it. That's his yield from those resources.

Porter is still a wait and see, but if he pans out, then that's three high quality foundation players all with about the same career windows. That's pretty much the best outcome you can realistically hope for from a total rebuild. And it's all you need as the foundation for a team that can win 50+ games a season for a decade.

If we actually did get three quality foundation players from cashing in all of the resources you mentioned, then they were well spent. Now it's really about whether you believe in Wall, Beal, and Porter as a worthy foundation.

It's a projection, but I personally think they are. I think Wall and Beal have already demonstrated themselves as perennial all star caliber talent. And I still believe in Porter's potential here.