Official Trade Thread - Part XXVII

[Illuminaire]

What patterns of improvement indicate that Monroe projects to get better entering his sixth year?

How has Monroe shown that he is the better player?

Other posters have given strong factual support for their assertions regarding Gortat. You have yet to give more than decisively worded opinions to defend your view about Monroe...

[Hidden Eye]

What patterns of improvement indicate that Monroe projects to get better entering his sixth year?

How has Monroe shown that he is the better player?

Other posters have given strong factual support for their assertions regarding Gortat. You have yet to give more than decisively worded opinions to defend your view about Monroe...

Monroe plays for the Pistons is that hard to understand? You can look up the stats for yourself I'd sign a 24 y/o over a 30 yo. Gortat is sturdy but Monroe is better player.

[thinker07]

The first problem with Monroe is that he's a RFA who Van Gundy has said Detroit will match on. It's pretty tough to do a S&T because we don't really have the assets.

The second problem is that Monroe's agent is David Falk and it's hard to see the Wiz giving him a max offer to help him get paid more by Detroit when they match.

I think the Wiz "interest" in Monroe was before things really started to gel with Gortat and the team. The emerging chemistry with Wall AND with Beal plus the real leadership Gortat displayed in the playoffs makes him by far the safer choice. I also think that Gortat can continue to get better with the Wiz as we have more time to figure out how to use him more effectively.

Making a max offer to Monroe also requires renouncing different right on our FA's and thus compromising our ability to resign Gortat and Ariza if we don't end up with Monroe. Also Monroe is very likely to cost more than Gortat and thus make it hard to resign Ariza too. So you have to calculate the price of Monroe as including losing Ariza.

I just don't think Monroe is such an upgrade that we would want to essentially start over by losing Gortat and Ariza.

[montestewart]

Gortat is better than Monroe?

Gortat has the edge otherwise, more defensive rebounds, many more blocks, is a better defender and finisher, etc. Not massively better, but to me, Gorta is pretty clearly better, and even if merely comparable, Monroe will get much bigger paycheck. Maybe Monroe gets better, maybe he doesn't. Gortat has had better seasons and worse seasons, but his style of play has been pretty consistent through his career. If you think Monroe is significantly better, than I think you're seeing something that doesn't show in stats and doesn't translate to wins.

I'd take Monroe over Gortat because he's shown he can be a better scorer and is a stronger finisher at the rim.

On its face, it looks like you are contradicting my assertion that Gortat is the better finisher. But then I read more closely and realized you weren't saying Monroe was a better finisher, merely a "stronger" finisher, and I have to agree that he is quite muscular.

Since Monroe entered the league four years ago, his four year percentages are: .624 at the rim, .896 on dunks, .599 on layups, and .564 on tip-ins. Gortat's four year percentages are: .733 at the rim, .929 on dunks, .707 on layups, and .568 on tip-ins. Oh, Monroe, so close on those tip-ins!

So we agree, Monroe the stronger finisher, Gortat the better finisher? Or am I missing something? Oh yes…

Monroe plays for the Pistons is that hard to understand?

That is really hard to understand. I'm not familiar with the Pistons, but whatever they are, they must be the reason that Monroe is…

[Illuminaire]

What patterns of improvement indicate that Monroe projects to get better entering his sixth year?

How has Monroe shown that he is the better player?

Other posters have given strong factual support for their assertions regarding Gortat. You have yet to give more than decisively worded opinions to defend your view about Monroe...

Monroe plays for the Pistons is that hard to understand? You can look up the stats for yourself I'd sign a 24 y/o over a 30 yo. Gortat is sturdy but Monroe is better player.

Please respond again when you actually feel like answering the questions I posed.

Alternatively, keep talking nonsense. That's sort of fun in it's own way.

[AFM]

We have to keep Gortat. He was great this year.

Nene has to go. Some how. There must be some team that would love to take him as a 6th man/ low mpg center. Maybe we can package him along with Porter for a decent FA.

[Hidden Eye]

Gortat has the edge otherwise, more defensive rebounds, many more blocks, is a better defender and finisher, etc. Not massively better, but to me, Gorta is pretty clearly better, and even if merely comparable, Monroe will get much bigger paycheck. Maybe Monroe gets better, maybe he doesn't. Gortat has had better seasons and worse seasons, but his style of play has been pretty consistent through his career. If you think Monroe is significantly better, than I think you're seeing something that doesn't show in stats and doesn't translate to wins.

I'd take Monroe over Gortat because he's shown he can be a better scorer and is a stronger finisher at the rim.

On its face, it looks like you are contradicting my assertion that Gortat is the better finisher. But then I read more closely and realized you weren't saying Monroe was a better finisher, merely a "stronger" finisher, and I have to agree that he is quite muscular.

Since Monroe entered the league four years ago, his four year percentages are: .624 at the rim, .896 on dunks, .599 on layups, and .564 on tip-ins. Gortat's four year percentages are: .733 at the rim, .929 on dunks, .707 on layups, and .568 on tip-ins. Oh, Monroe, so close on those tip-ins!

So we agree, Monroe the stronger finisher, Gortat the better finisher? Or am I missing something? Oh yes…

Monroe plays for the Pistons is that hard to understand?

That is really hard to understand. I'm not familiar with the Pistons, but whatever they are, they must be the reason that Monroe is…

What does Gortat do better than Monroe excluding Defense? You have to factor in other things like Age,Team and Coaching.

[payitforward]

...What does Gortat do better than Monroe excluding Defense? You have to factor in other things like Age,Team and Coaching.

Look, Hidden Eye, just try to actually support the claims you make. The several people who've posted in response to you, me included, have actually provided lots of info about what Gortat does better than Monroe. You are the one who isn't actually *saying* anything -- just acting as if anything that goes through your mind must be obvious, haha, lol at what other people think, isn't it oh so funny?

No one thinks Monroe is a *bad* player; he just isn't a terrific player. And in 4 years, as Illuminaire suggest, he hasn't shown that he's getting better. Yet, he's going to be paid max or close to max, or that's how it looks at least. And that is the problem with Monroe.

[Hidden Eye]

...What does Gortat do better than Monroe excluding Defense? You have to factor in other things like Age,Team and Coaching.

Look, Hidden Eye, just try to actually support the claims you make. The several people who've posted in response to you, me included, have actually provided lots of info about what Gortat does better than Monroe. You are the one who isn't actually *saying* anything -- just acting as if anything that goes through your mind must be obvious, haha, lol at what other people think, isn't it oh so funny?

No one thinks Monroe is a *bad* player; he just isn't a terrific player. And in 4 years, as Illuminaire suggest, he hasn't shown that he's getting better. Yet, he's going to be paid max or close to max, or that's how it looks at least. And that is the problem with Monroe.

And none of those claims prove he's better Coaching,Age and Team you have to factor in. Gortat is a good player but he's 30 and not getting younger, not knocking on him but Monroe is a longterm piece with Wall and Beal. Gortat isn't 100% committed coming back here. So you need Plan B,C,D,E.

[nuposse04]

The only thing Monroe I think has working in his favor (If you want to think about him positively) is that he hasn't played with incompetent teammates and a real PG. Monroe was unfortunately drafted into a terrible situation.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Here is an idea that is completely different.

Nene and Webster to the Knicks for Amare Stoudemire.

Amare has some offense left and I think (18.8 PER) is better than Nene. More importantly, his contract expires this season, one year earlier than Nene. This would also take Webster off the books.

NYK would do this for immediate cap relief. With Carmelo opting out Webster might be a decent temporary stopgap.

I think this would open cap space for the Wizards to go after Monroe, or to make sure to retain both Ariza and Gortat. Plus it would give Otto Porter a bigger role next season.

Thoughts?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[LyricalRico]

Here is an idea that is completely different.

Nene and Webster to the Knicks for Amare Stoudemire.

Amare has some offense left and I think (18.8 PER) is better than Nene. More importantly, his contract expires this season, one year earlier than Nene. This would also take Webster off the books.

NYK would do this for immediate cap relief. With Carmelo opting out Webster might be a decent temporary stopgap.

I think this would open cap space for the Wizards to go after Monroe, or to make sure to retain both Ariza and Gortat. Plus it would give Otto Porter a bigger role next season.

Thoughts?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

If the Knicks lose Anthony, I don't see them adding any longterm salary.

[stevemcqueen1]

Amar'e's contract would be useful as an expiring, but he can't play starters minutes at PF any more. I don't like the idea of trading Nene with no plan for a starting PF.

[hands11]

...What does Gortat do better than Monroe excluding Defense? You have to factor in other things like Age,Team and Coaching.

Look, Hidden Eye, just try to actually support the claims you make. The several people who've posted in response to you, me included, have actually provided lots of info about what Gortat does better than Monroe. You are the one who isn't actually *saying* anything -- just acting as if anything that goes through your mind must be obvious, haha, lol at what other people think, isn't it oh so funny?

No one thinks Monroe is a *bad* player; he just isn't a terrific player. And in 4 years, as Illuminaire suggest, he hasn't shown that he's getting better. Yet, he's going to be paid max or close to max, or that's how it looks at least. And that is the problem with Monroe.

And none of those claims prove he's better Coaching,Age and Team you have to factor in. Gortat is a good player but he's 30 and not getting younger, not knocking on him but Monroe is a longterm piece with Wall and Beal. Gortat isn't 100% committed coming back here. So you need Plan B,C,D,E.

Do you think 30 is old for a center ?

I get why people worry about Nene given his injury history but Gortat is in great shape. He is lean and strong. A player like him can keep it going well in the 35/36 range. And he has low miles on him. Gortat is just starting to peak. I just got it going with Wall latter in the year. Another year of Gortat and I would expect same or better then '11-'12 which happens to also have been his 2nd year in PHX.

And he played really well in the playoffs for us.

The Wizards don't need a 10 year plan. They need a 1-2-3 year plan. Because come 1-2-3 years down the road, things will change. Thei longer term pieces are Wall and Beal. That's two starters. Nene and Gortat are more then fine as the other two starters up front for now. Both are productive, good defenders and TEAM LEADERS.

The big question is, whats the 3rd big piece. And the answer is, they don't have to know that right now. Wall is 24. Beal is going to be 21. If it doesn't come together this year, thats ok. You just don't force these kinds of things. They can be GS good for this year because that good in the East is a top 3 team and that is vast improvement over last year. Specially if LeBron and Melo leave the East.

The team is establishing an identity over the last two year but most of it happened just last year and most of that late showed up late last year after the added Miller and Gooden. Gortat AND Nene were a big part of that identity. Its defense. Its team ball. Its a team with vet leadership teaching Wall and Beal how to be that kind of vet in the future. Thats how SAS does it. You have to build a culture first. Neither Wall or Beal has that in them yet just like K Leonard isn't even ready to shoulder that team yet without Duncan, Parker and Manu. But winning a title and getting MVP was a big step toward him being that player in the future.

I am in no rush to push Nene out the door nor am I Gortat for Monroe.

Gortat was huge for the team as a leader. He has a great two man game with Wall and taught him a ton. I don't see Monroe replacing that part of what Gortat brought. I don't think they have one stat that shows that.

Don't screw with the team chemistry that is just getting established.

[Illuminaire]

The sad part is that keeping Nene is still having no plan for a (healthy) starting PF...

[hands11]

The sad part is that keeping Nene is still having no plan for a (healthy) starting PF...

So you build out the front court on short cheaper contracts

Nene/Gooden
Gortat

Chris Anderson who is opting out ( 2.5M ?) or Kenyon Martin (1.5/2M?)
Ryan Kelly (2M?)/ edit 6.20.14 per Dat to add Anthony Tolliver
Kaman (2M?) / Okafor (2M?)

Now maybe I don't have them prices right, but until we start hearing offers, that's hard to pin down. All these players are coming off cheap contracts expect Okafor who didn't play at all last year.

There are a ton of combinations of those players that could work. And Nene and Gooden both can play center when needed.

Chris Anderson would be a huge grab if they can get him.
Okafor - we need some news on him but getting him to back up center would be another nice add
Kaman can add range. Another solid piece as a back up center

Between those three, we should be able to land one of them to back up Gortat.

Then you add players like Ryan Kelly or Tolliverto add outside shooting.

Combining these players together creates a better front court then we had last year and non should require longer than a 2 year contracts. Its not sexy, but that's how SAS does it. Fill as many positions as possible with productive players that do the things your team needs to great a whole that is greater then the sum of the parts. And do it on inexpensive contracts. Then pay your starters, starters money.

[montestewart]

What does Gortat do better than Monroe excluding Defense?

Speak Polish, German, and Serbian
Box
Play volleyball
Score efficiently
Groom facial hair
Swing a sledge hammer
Finish at the rim
Drive tiny cars

[Dark Faze]

What patterns of improvement indicate that Monroe projects to get better entering his sixth year?

How has Monroe shown that he is the better player?

Other posters have given strong factual support for their assertions regarding Gortat. You have yet to give more than decisively worded opinions to defend your view about Monroe...

Advanced stats have shown that Monroe is indeed better than Gortat by a decent amount when he plays the center position. His development has been slown considerably since the arrival of Drummond.

Don't forget about Al Jefferson as a guy who really showed out once he arrived to a different situation last year. I could see Monroe taking the same step for a different club.

[montestewart]

What patterns of improvement indicate that Monroe projects to get better entering his sixth year?

How has Monroe shown that he is the better player?

Other posters have given strong factual support for their assertions regarding Gortat. You have yet to give more than decisively worded opinions to defend your view about Monroe...

Advanced stats have shown that Monroe is indeed better than Gortat by a decent amount when he plays the center position. His development has been slown considerably since the arrival of Drummond.

Don't forget about Al Jefferson as a guy who really showed out once he arrived to a different situation last year. I could see Monroe taking the same step for a different club.

Proper board etiquette dictates that phrases like "advanced stats have shown" should be accompanied by some citation to actual advanced stats, maybe with some links and/or analysis, to differentiate such claims from the likes of "everybody knows," "it stands to reason," and "I'll bet you dollars to donuts." Unless these are double-secret advanced stats, in which case you should not cite to them. Because they're secret.

[LyricalRico]

BKN reportedly considering trading Thornton's expiring for Jared Jack in anticipation of losing Livingston. I know we've discussed it before, but maybe this signals they'd be interested in taking on some of our contracts.

KG and Thornton

for

Nene, Webster and Miller

Gives the Nets depth at 3 positions, and secures our 2015 cap space. Maybe we can also flip KG for something else by July 15th, assuming he agrees. Maybe Boozer as a stop-gap?