Political Roundtable Part XIX

[nate33]

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The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

[cammac]

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The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

Hiring capable staff is a oxymoron in the Trump World!

[Ruzious]

The first attribute Trump looks for in any appointment is loyalty to Trump. Being capable is far down the list. Trump is flat out encouraging his people to commit perjury and arguably treason.

[cammac]

Spanky MacTrump the great negotiator wants to get back into the TPP well actually it's now the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP). The countries involved in the CPTPP are Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. In making the new alliance many of the Obama negotiated provisions have been dropped out the the new agreement. These definitely benefited the USA and will never be reversed.

A sampling:

countries will be allowed to continue with their public healthcare and pharmaceutical programs

the investor-state dispute settlement mechanism has been narrowed so that national governments can continue to regulate in the public interest without being sued by foreign businesses

financial services won't be as open to the investor-state dispute settlement mechanism as they would have been in the original TPP

1.the copyright term for films, music, and various publication won't have to be extended from 50 years to 70 years
2. national protections for pharmaceuticals won't have to be extended or generics further restricted
3.government procurement at the national, state, and local level won't be forced against their will to open up to foreign contracts
4.no new laws for breaking digital locks on copyrighted works beyond what currently exists
5.no change to laws relating to rights management information about copyrighted works
6.no new obligations around the liability of ISPs regarding online copyright infringement
7.no new protections required for encrypted program-carrying satellite and cable program signals
8.individual nations can continue to maintain public monopoly postal services if they wish
9.treatment of intellectual property remains aligned with international rules and is not expanded
In total there were 22 provisions the USA imposed that were scrapped that Obama and his trade representatives had negotiated. These were professionals who knew that the TPP was a trade agreement that could help blunt China's dominance in Asia. Do you think Spanky and his gang could do better and get even one back????

[cammac]

Under the Nate it can't be true because he was white category!
One of the least reported terror act in American history by a domestic terrorist who just happened to screw up.
Pee Brain would have made it front page news if Morrow hadn't been a Christian & white not a Muslim. We are sure Morrow was just trying to make a paper volcano for a Alt Right science fair.

Benjamin Morrow was found dead with white supremacist literature and the ingredients for a notorious bomb known as the “Mother of Satan.”

Morrow, 28, died in an explosion in the kitchen of his Beaver Dam, Wisconsin, apartment on March 5. His home was filled with bomb-making substances so volatile that firefighters chose to destroy the 16-unit apartment block in a controlled blaze, rather than let Morrow’s neighbors continue to live in the building. A search warrant unsealed last week revealed that Morrow kept white supremacist literature in his home. Investigators’ application for a second warrant suggests that Morrow had plans, announcing that he was clearing out a rented storage locker just hours before his death.

Also sitting in plain sight where two white cardboard boxes stamped with the words “mix it, shake it, shoot it,” and three more packages labeled “sonic boom,” Heimerl testified, adding that he suspected the boxes contained materials that would explode when combined. Investigators also found pipes and pipe caps in the apartment.

When they entered the kitchen, investigators found Morrow dead in front of a still-lit stove. An “overpressure blast” had destroyed much of the room, blowing out the doors and windows and burying Morrow under the collapsed ceiling. Containers with more chemicals were spilling out an open refrigerator door.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/suspected-white-supremacist-died-building-isis-style-bombs?ref=home

[gtn130]

The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

1. He's pardoning Libby to try to piss off Comey

2. Using the term 'Deep State' is a massively efficient way of self-identifying as a moron

[Zonkerbl]

The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

You should read "The Anti-Politics Machine" by James Ferguson. It is the best treatment of the deep state I've read.

Tl;dr version:
There is a thing called the deep state (he doesn't say it in so many words, you have to infer it). There are unelected government officials who can't be fired and make decisions about how to spend taxpayer money with very little supervision. This much is absolutely true. I'm one of them and I've been working in the "deep state" my entire career. It is extremely dysfunctional and inefficient, and only kinda necessary.

The deep state is a *focus* of power. The deep state takes every opportunity it can to spread its influence to make sure that decisions are channeled through the bureaucracy. However, the deep state doesn't *wield* power, except very passively through inertia - it's hard to change things quickly. The State Department has everything very carefully woven together and you are supposed to only make incremental changes.

The deep state is like cancer. It is only interested in replicating itself. It doesn't take over the body and make you do stuff you don't want - you're still in control, to the extent that you really are in control of your body - until the cancer kills you. It isn't a being with a mind and a will and a purpose. All it does is is force people to go through them to make a decision.

So to accuse a cancer of having ill will towards its victim is to entirely misunderstand the nature of cancer. Cancer don't give a **** about you or your politics or who you voted for or any of that. Cancer cares about cancer. Cancer wants to live and spread - that's it.

The "deep state" isn't secretly pulling behind the scenes levers to target Trump. Trump is being investigated because Trump broke several laws on national tv like an idiot. Trump has no one to blame for being investigated by the "deep state" but himself.

[FAH1223]

I agree with this Republican

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[dckingsfan]

The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

You should read "The Anti-Politics Machine" by James Ferguson. It is the best treatment of the deep state I've read.

Tl;dr version:
There is a thing called the deep state (he doesn't say it in so many words, you have to infer it). There are unelected government officials who can't be fired and make decisions about how to spend taxpayer money with very little supervision. This much is absolutely true. I'm one of them and I've been working in the "deep state" my entire career. It is extremely dysfunctional and inefficient, and only kinda necessary.

The deep state is a *focus* of power. The deep state takes every opportunity it can to spread its influence to make sure that decisions are channeled through the bureaucracy. However, the deep state doesn't *wield* power, except very passively through inertia - it's hard to change things quickly. The State Department has everything very carefully woven together and you are supposed to only make incremental changes.

The deep state is like cancer. It is only interested in replicating itself. It doesn't take over the body and make you do stuff you don't want - you're still in control, to the extent that you really are in control of your body - until the cancer kills you. It isn't a being with a mind and a will and a purpose. All it does is is force people to go through them to make a decision.

So to accuse a cancer of having ill will towards its victim is to entirely misunderstand the nature of cancer. Cancer don't give a **** about you or your politics or who you voted for or any of that. Cancer cares about cancer. Cancer wants to live and spread - that's it.

The "deep state" isn't secretly pulling behind the scenes levers to target Trump. Trump is being investigated because Trump broke several laws on national tv like an idiot. Trump has no one to blame for being investigated by the "deep state" but himself.

That is a really good description of the "deep state". On the local/state level it is just as prevalent. It is a very good explanation of why we can't get rid of bad programs as well. Once they are in place, there is a full infrastructure to defend them (and usually there are private partners that do there bidding - think industrial prison complex).

[dckingsfan]

2. Using the term 'Deep State' is a massively efficient way of self-identifying as a moron

See Zonk's definition below... to say it doesn't exist

[gtn130]

2. Using the term 'Deep State' is a massively efficient way of self-identifying as a moron

See Zonk's definition below... to say it doesn't exist

Dude it was brought into the lexicon by like Breitbart lol as a way for Trump to hand-wave away anything he doesn't like coming from the FBI and DOJ.

[I_Like_Dirt]

See Zonk's definition below... to say it doesn't exist

To be fair, I've never really seen the term "deep state" used in the context zonk just used it - even he admits the term isn't used there and he only really infers it. Though I very much agree with his inference and overall description, and I don't really see the point of name-calling using terms that have often been used to equate disabilities as insults, the term "deep state" right now largely seems to be used in the sense of some illuminati-like elite trying to force people to be nice to each other, but only those who can see the deep state because everyone else is out to get them.

Zonk's description is actually pretty solid, though and I think it would be great if the term's meaning was pushed in that direction. The idea of it as a tool, or essentially the avenue to power is a much more useful concept. And it's existence is both curse and blessing. It's inability to change drastically in a short period of time causes some rather big issues if it's ever pushed in a direction of unsustainable spending/tax cuts (which it has been), but at the same time, its existence can also slow the progress of someone like Trump, who honestly would have caused a bunch more problems thus far if not for its existence.

[gtn130]

You guys are being awfully pedantic about this. 'Deep State' is completely analogous to 'Fake News' in terms of how Trump and his acolytes use it

[dckingsfan]

See Zonk's definition below... to say it doesn't exist

To be fair, I've never really seen the term "deep state" used in the context zonk just used it - even he admits the term isn't used there and he only really infers it. Though I very much agree with his inference and overall description, and I don't really see the point of name-calling using terms that have often been used to equate disabilities as insults, the term "deep state" right now largely seems to be used in the sense of some illuminati-like elite trying to force people to be nice to each other, but only those who can see the deep state because everyone else is out to get them.

Zonk's description is actually pretty solid, though and I think it would be great if the term's meaning was pushed in that direction. The idea of it as a tool, or essentially the avenue to power is a much more useful concept. And it's existence is both curse and blessing. It's inability to change drastically in a short period of time causes some rather big issues if it's ever pushed in a direction of unsustainable spending/tax cuts (which it has been), but at the same time, its existence can also slow the progress of someone like Trump, who honestly would have caused a bunch more problems thus far if not for its existence.

I think Zonk's description is solid as well - and it doesn't make it any less nefarious.

I think it is also a reason why we have Trump in the first place.

[dckingsfan]

You guys are being awfully pedantic about this. 'Deep State' is completely analogous to 'Fake News' in terms of how Trump and his acolytes use it

Your comment is short and precise. But I don't think accurate.

Trump is a buffoon. But he has hit on something that most understand but can't explain due to the complexity and breadth of the issue.

Trump merely tapped into the sentiment and then twisted it to his own use (fake news).

But the issue if valid.

[gtn130]

You guys are being awfully pedantic about this. 'Deep State' is completely analogous to 'Fake News' in terms of how Trump and his acolytes use it

Your comment is short and precise. But I don't think accurate.

Trump is a buffoon. But he has hit on something that most understand but can't explain due to the complexity and breadth of the issue.

Trump merely tapped into the sentiment and then twisted it to his own use (fake news).

But the issue if valid.

Lol come on man.

If the FBI investigated/arrested Hillary, Obama and all other Trump opponents, his base of depraved lunatics (so, his base) would be celebrating the brave and vigilant efforts put forth by the DEEP STATE.

If Hillary is arrested for EMAILS and URANIUM ONE it would be nothin' but respect for MY Deep State.

[nate33]

The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

You should read "The Anti-Politics Machine" by James Ferguson. It is the best treatment of the deep state I've read.

Tl;dr version:
There is a thing called the deep state (he doesn't say it in so many words, you have to infer it). There are unelected government officials who can't be fired and make decisions about how to spend taxpayer money with very little supervision. This much is absolutely true. I'm one of them and I've been working in the "deep state" my entire career. It is extremely dysfunctional and inefficient, and only kinda necessary.

The deep state is a *focus* of power. The deep state takes every opportunity it can to spread its influence to make sure that decisions are channeled through the bureaucracy. However, the deep state doesn't *wield* power, except very passively through inertia - it's hard to change things quickly. The State Department has everything very carefully woven together and you are supposed to only make incremental changes.

The deep state is like cancer. It is only interested in replicating itself. It doesn't take over the body and make you do stuff you don't want - you're still in control, to the extent that you really are in control of your body - until the cancer kills you. It isn't a being with a mind and a will and a purpose. All it does is is force people to go through them to make a decision.

So to accuse a cancer of having ill will towards its victim is to entirely misunderstand the nature of cancer. Cancer don't give a **** about you or your politics or who you voted for or any of that. Cancer cares about cancer. Cancer wants to live and spread - that's it.

The "deep state" isn't secretly pulling behind the scenes levers to target Trump. Trump is being investigated because Trump broke several laws on national tv like an idiot. Trump has no one to blame for being investigated by the "deep state" but himself.

I'd characterize what you are describing as the "permanent bureaucracy". It is a component of the Deep State, but not all of it. In addition to what you are describing, there are individuals within the intelligence community and upper levels of the State and Defense Departments who exert more conscious control of things. I also believe extortion, black mail and selective disinformation are used to keep certain elected representatives in line. That said, I don't believe there is a single-minded command and control structure. There are multiple players with their own agendas. But the bottom line is that government is not in the full control of elected officials.

[dckingsfan]

You guys are being awfully pedantic about this. 'Deep State' is completely analogous to 'Fake News' in terms of how Trump and his acolytes use it

Your comment is short and precise. But I don't think accurate.

Trump is a buffoon. But he has hit on something that most understand but can't explain due to the complexity and breadth of the issue.

Trump merely tapped into the sentiment and then twisted it to his own use (fake news).

But the issue if valid.

Lol come on man.

If the FBI investigated/arrested Hillary, Obama and all other Trump opponents, his base of depraved lunatics (so, his base) would be celebrating the brave and vigilant efforts put forth by the DEEP STATE.

If Hillary is arrested for EMAILS and URANIUM ONE it would be nothin' but respect for MY Deep State.

That is how Trump and his followers have twisted it. But the "deep state" as Zonk defines it wouldn't be that at all. It is rule making without congressional oversight. It is state governments working with the industrial prison complex to preserve its existence, etc., etc., etc.

Your immediate dismissal of the issue is misguided, IMO. It is one of the reasons that the Ds have been so unsuccessful in governing.

[gtn130]

That is how Trump and his followers have twisted it. But the "deep state" as Zonk defines it wouldn't be that at all. It is rule making without congressional oversight. It is state governments working with the industrial prison complex to preserve its existence, etc., etc., etc.

Your immediate dismissal of the issue is misguided, IMO. It is one of the reasons that the Ds have been so unsuccessful in governing.

Lol sure ok.

I'm dismissing 'the issue' because it's not really all that relevant to anything. Nobody is using 'Deep State' in 2018 in good faith. It's a tool for discrediting US institutions. Like how 'Fake News' is a tool for discrediting the free press.

Remember when Nate was the foremost FISA watchdog for like a week?

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think Zonk's description is solid as well - and it doesn't make it any less nefarious.

I think it is also a reason why we have Trump in the first place.

See, I disagree with both of these. I don't think deep state by that description in and of itself is nefarious. I think it's a tool that can be nefarious if used for such, and I also think it's an equally dangerous tool if used by people that don't understand it.

As for a reason for Trump, I disagree pretty strongly on that one. Trump won because of fear and greed. And yeah, there is fear of deep state, but not the kind Zonk described; though the other more common definition of deep state I described does play into that.