Political Roundtable Part XXV

[popper]

From what I understand he didn't think it was his role to make prosecutorial decisions. He outlined the events that could constitute obstruction, and left it for congress to decide.

Gotcha.

Popper.

Overall the report outlined 11 episodes involving Trump and legal questions about obstruction of justice.

“The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgement,” the report said. “At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state.

Mueller pointedly wrote in the introduction to the section of the report dealing with obstruction that the report did not “exonerate” Trump. Mueller also wrote that he didn’t try to come to a conclusion about the president’s innocence or guilt because of a longstanding Justice Department policy that prevents a sitting president from being charged and put on trial — which he saw himself as bound by.

The authority to prohibit a president’s corrupt use of power, the report finds, is essential to “our constitutional system of checks and balances and the principle that no person is above the law.”

All this is detailed and laid out in Mueller’s report. This is literally Congress’ job to investigate what Mueller couldn’t. Trump ignoring subpoenas or blocking people from testifying is saying he’s above the law and like clogs said that’s no different from a dictator.

I hear you. I mentioned in a previous post that it’s up to the House now to decide on impeachment. Accusations of dictatorship are hyperbole.

[popper]

You cannot compel a former employee to keep his mouth shut. There is no attorney/client privilege. You have a very corrupted view of the law.

I’m not really qualified to judge what may or may not be legal on this issue. I’m not a lawyer and that’s why I posted that the courts will determine the outcome (assuming it goes that far). As a general matter, people are frequently constrained from speaking freely either through NDA’s, confidentiality laws, court orders, etc.

The main point of my response was to highlight closg’s hyperbole with regard to “dictatorial government.”

The current government, at the direction of Donald Trump, has sent the word out to NOT comply to LAWFUL requests by a co-equal branch of the government, they are essentially lawless and unaccountable to no one. The few left with any principles (Don McGahn) resign rather than do Trumps dirty-work. Mob Boss Presidency

He is accountable both to court orders and to Congress (impeachment process). I know you’re frustrated closg but this will play out over time and our republic will endure. There’s an election in 19 months so maybe that will be the end of your torture. There’s also the possibility he will be prosecuted for something once he leaves office. Who knows.

[dobrojim]

I don't think it's unprecedented. As I mentioned, we have a legal system in place to sort things out.

Nov 5, 2011
WH rejects subpoena request for Solyndra docs
byPhilip Klein Senior Editorial Writer

President Obama's attorney sent a letter to Congressional investigators on Friday, saying the White House would not cooperate with a subpoena requesting documents related to its doling out a $535 million loan guarantee to now bankrupt solar panel manufacturer Solyndra.

"I can only conclude that your decision to issue a subpoena, authorized by a party-line vote, was driven more by partisan politics than a legitimate effort to conduct a responsible investigation," Obama's counsel, Kathryn Ruemmler, wrote in a letter to the top Republicans on the House Energy and Commerce committee. (Read Ruemmler's full letter here).

https://247sports.com/college/usc/Board/59419/Contents/Obstructionist-Obama-refuses-subpoena-6322568/


More Congressional Subpoenas Ignored by the Obama Administration

Washington D.C., September 11, 2014

This week in a House Natural Resources Committee, Congressman Doug Lamborn grilled the Department of the Interior's Deputy Inspector General Mary Kendall. Deputy IG Kendall has failed to fully respond to lawful Congressional subpoenas and has misled the committee in previous testimony.

https://lamborn.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=899


McCain Slams Obama for Ignoring Subpoenas

By Dan Weil | Tuesday, 18 June 2013 01:28 PM


Sen. John McCain blasted President Barack Obama Monday for allowing administration officials to ignore congressional subpoenas for information and for setting up private email accounts to conduct government business out of public view.

"Your administration’s disdain towards congressional authority and its failure to disclose public records feeds into its adversarial relationship with Congress and fuels public distrust in government," the Arizona Republican wrote in a letter Monday to the president.


https://www.newsmax.com/politics/mccain-subpoenas-obama-emails/2013/06/18/id/510535/

When looking at the Solyndra issue, I don't think you can compare the BHO admin responses to the kind of flat
out stonewalling we are now seeing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/solyndra-house-panel-subpoeas-white-house-for-first-time/2011/11/03/gIQAtmjjiM_story.html?utm_term=.7059368ccb09

Republicans on a House Energy and Commerce Committee panel on Thursday overrode vigorous Democratic objections and took the apparently unprecedented step of authorizing subpoenas for internal White House communications related to a half-billion-dollar taxpayer loan guarantee for the failed solar company Solyndra.

The move followed a last-minute attempt by the White House to fend off the move, with officials meeting with committee members and delivering several boxes of e-mails and other documents to committee investigators on Wednesday afternoon.

Following the vote, a White House official said the administration had cooperated extensively with the committee’s investigation, producing more than 85,000 pages of documents, including 20,000 pages Thursday afternoon, and having administration officials provide multiple briefings and hearings.

see the difference

[closg00]

I was referring to the orders given to not have people testify, was such a sweeping edict dispatched under Obama? You're right though, it will have to work itself out through the courts.
However, Donald Trump has rarely been held to account for much of anything, he is continuing his practice of stiffing contractors for work completed.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-hotel-paid-millions-in-fines-for-unpaid-work

[montestewart]

No. We are officially living under a Constitutional Republic where an independent judiciary is called upon from time to time to adjudicate differing interpretations of law. The courts will decide what is required under the law on this issue just as they have been doing on other related issues for past 200 plus years.

You cannot compel a former employee to keep his mouth shut. There is no attorney/client privilege. You have a very corrupted view of the law.

I’m not really qualified to judge what may or may not be legal on this issue. I’m not a lawyer and that’s why I posted that the courts will determine the outcome (assuming it goes that far). As a general matter, people are frequently constrained from speaking freely either through NDA’s, confidentiality laws, court orders, etc.

The main point of my response was to highlight closg’s hyperbole with regard to “dictatorial government.”

Courts routinely respect the aims of NDAs and confidentiality laws, but like doctor patient privilege, these generally cannot be used as a shield to prevent the presentation of important testimony or other evidence. Congress, like courts, has the power compel testimony or other evidence. To me, courts would probably have to drastically expand executive privilege to prevent former White House employees from testifying about alleged criminal activity.

Kudos to popper for attempting to fill the breach and offer the conservative perspective. Try to remember he's just one man right now, so everyone don't pile on at once.

And kudos to everyone for keeping this thread civil, family friendly, thoughtful, and informative.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[closg00]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

As time goes-by, it appears that Rod was trying to balance some semblance of principles against working under a crazy and corrupt President.

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[dckingsfan]

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

And then folks start talking about single payer, M4A, reforming the ACA and completely miss the point. It's the cost drivers, stupid (paraphrasing Bill).

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[closg00]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

The weasel is weaseling again

[Jamaaliver]

As Trump waits on Obamacare, Americans list health care as top worry

While President Donald Trump and Republicans decided to wait until after 2020 to attempt Trump’s campaign promise of comprehensive health care reform, Americans remain worried as ever about the availability and affordability of health care.

Over half of the respondents surveyed in a recent Gallup poll indicated that they worry “a great deal” about the availability and affordability of health care. Health care topped Gallup's list of potentially worrisome issues for the fifth year in a row.

According to the Gallup poll findings, “a majority of Americans have said they worry a great deal about health care in each of the 18 years the question has been asked since 2001, more than twice as often as any of the other 12 issues most often measured.”



The Affordable Care Act (ACA), signed into law in March 2010, aimed at reducing health care costs and providing health care on a national level. Nevertheless, health care worries have still remained relatively unchanged since then.

Spoiler:

Yahoo Finance

[montestewart]

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Trump agreed to pay N. Korea for the release of Otto Warmbier, then stiffed them, according to National Security Adviser John Bolton

Critics and the media keep harping on Trump stiffing vendors, customers, partners, etc., as if that's such a horrible thing.

It turns out that it is a very important skill for a president.

Abraham Lincoln was the Great Emancipator, Ronald Reagan was the Great Communicator, and now we have Trump, the Great Reneger.

PS: Bolton's official narrative seems custom fabricated to feed a cliche hungry base

[dobrojim]

on the subject of the tension between the executive and legislative branches

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-isnt-just-defying-congress-hes-rejecting-the-whole-idea-of-oversight/2019/04/26/acf0a00a-67c9-11e9-a1b6-b29b90efa879_story.html?utm_term=.9cef50001ceb

The administration’s emerging position appears to be that Congress does not really have the power to investigate the president, at least not when one chamber is controlled by his political adversaries, even if whatever information it seeks might eventually be used in an impeachment proceeding. That’s a deeply disturbing argument, and one that, if successful, would tilt the separation of powers, perhaps irrevocably, toward the executive branch.

The real crisis is that what used to be a retail constitutional conflict has all the signs of becoming a wholesale one — with Trump telling reporters on Wednesday that “we’re fighting all the subpoenas.” Instead of following his predecessors’ lead and asserting case-specific objections to specific subpoenas (and complying with others), Trump’s approach, at least publicly, has been to attack the idea that any subpoena could be appropriate — in essence, to challenge Congress’s power of inquiry on its face.

[Ruzious]

on the subject of the tension between the executive and legislative branches

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-isnt-just-defying-congress-hes-rejecting-the-whole-idea-of-oversight/2019/04/26/acf0a00a-67c9-11e9-a1b6-b29b90efa879_story.html?utm_term=.9cef50001ceb

The administration’s emerging position appears to be that Congress does not really have the power to investigate the president, at least not when one chamber is controlled by his political adversaries, even if whatever information it seeks might eventually be used in an impeachment proceeding. That’s a deeply disturbing argument, and one that, if successful, would tilt the separation of powers, perhaps irrevocably, toward the executive branch.

The real crisis is that what used to be a retail constitutional conflict has all the signs of becoming a wholesale one — with Trump telling reporters on Wednesday that “we’re fighting all the subpoenas.” Instead of following his predecessors’ lead and asserting case-specific objections to specific subpoenas (and complying with others), Trump’s approach, at least publicly, has been to attack the idea that any subpoena could be appropriate — in essence, to challenge Congress’s power of inquiry on its face.

I'd say it's unbelievable except for the fact that something unbelievable from the POS... in the WH happens every GD day - while too many people don't give a f'n s about it or actually support it.

[dckingsfan]

Looks like Biden has jumped out to a very large lead...

[Wizardspride]

Looks like Biden has jumped out to a very large lead...

Yep.

Personally, I believe in the end the ticket will be Biden-Harris

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Pointgod]

Looks like Biden has jumped out to a very large lead...

I found this data pretty surprising.

Forty-seven percent of black women surveyed for the poll said Biden is their top choice to be the Democratic nominee, giving him a wide lead in the demographic over his rivals.

Black women are the backbone of the Democratic Party and the most reliable voters. The fact that Biden has almost half of them is pretty good for his prospects

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/441320-47-percent-of-black-women-say-theyd-back-biden-poll

[gtn130]

Read on Twitter

Wow the Glenn Greenwald narratives getting shattered left and right. Glenn has zero credibility.