Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[Kanyewest]

Mapping the Overlap As these maps show, the correlation between guns and suicide is strong but inexact, since both are influenced by poverty, population density, and crime. The nine states that rank lowest in terms of gun prevalence are the very same nine that rank lowest for suicide rates. Similarly, the three states top-ranked for gun prevalence can be found among the four states ranking highest for suicide rates.

[stilldropin20]

Like why are automatic weapons banned? Isn't that alone quite an admission of something? Why were guns banned at the RNC in 2016?

People argue in bad faith!

Secret service was there with their guns.

Imagine that


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[cammac]

Gun deaths is not a useful category. Of course there will be fewer gun deaths if there are no guns available.

What am i missing here? Dont we want fewer gun deaths?

I thought the pro-gun argument was that if there were no guns, then the bad guys would shoot everyone up because they dont follow the law.

People want fewer homicides, period. When articles use "gun deaths" it's because they're trying to include gun-related suicides into violent crime stats to make the data look a lot worse.

There is no correlation between gun ownership and overall suicide rate. People in countries where guns are rare merely kill themselves by other means. The U.S. for example, has a lower suicide rate than most Western European countries.

Consider two countries with identical suicide rates and identical homicide rates. One country has high gun ownership, the other has low gun ownership. The high ownership gun country would have more of their suicides attributable to guns. Therefore, that data would show the country with more guns would have higher "gun related deaths" even though each country is identical in homicides and suicides. It artificially makes the presence of guns seem more dangerous.

In this case about suicides Nate is correct in that people will find a way to commit suicide.
We are talking about gun violence not suicides.
I think this could shift to murder/suicides!

There are on average nearly 11 murder-suicides a week in America, according to a new study by my organization, the Violence Policy Center. We estimate that more than 1,200 Americans die in murder-suicides each year. Nine out of 10 of these incidents involve a gun, and 72 percent involve an intimate partner.Nov 3, 2015

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/the-gun-violence-we-arent_b_8461358.html
http://www.vpc.org/press/more-than-1200-americans-die-in-murder-suicides-each-year-vpc-study-finds/
https://ncadv.org/statistics

I also wonder if these statistics include mass murder and then suicide like in Las Vegas???????

[stilldropin20]

Mapping the Overlap As these maps show, the correlation between guns and suicide is strong but inexact, since both are influenced by poverty, population density, and crime. The nine states that rank lowest in terms of gun prevalence are the very same nine that rank lowest for suicide rates. Similarly, the three states top-ranked for gun prevalence can be found among the four states ranking highest for suicide rates.

So the states the have a lot of housing that is isolated and they must defend themselves as police could be quite a distance away? So they have a high prevalence of guns?

and all the states that are in the middle of the desert or in the middle of a frozentundra... those dates of the highest suicide rates? Go figure.

Terrible study. Terrible correlation. Beyond useless data.


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[Doug_Blew]

I could probably be talked into backing more restrictions on semi-automatic weapons. It would allow hunters to still get hunting rifles, and it would allow homeowners to defend their property with a shot gun, but might eliminate the horrifically efficient mass-shootings we see far too often.

It does sound like the two sides have made progress in coming together on the gun issue. Hopefully we see some changes that help all of us.

[Kanyewest]

Guns help explain difference in urban and rural suicide rates

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-suicide-rural-guns/guns-help-explain-difference-in-urban-and-rural-suicide-rates-idUSKCN1BW2QD


Suicides rates may be higher in rural America than in cities at least in part because gun ownership is more common outside of urban areas, a recent study suggests.

For the study, researchers examined data on 6,196 adult suicides from 2003 to 2015 in the state of Maryland. Overall, suicide rates were 35 percent higher in rural counties than in urban counties, the study found.

Firearm suicide rates were 66 percent higher in rural counties than in urban counties, the study also found. But there wasn’t a meaningful difference in suicide rates for cases that didn’t involve guns.

“For patients and physicians, this study further illustrates the life-or-death importance of discussing firearm ownership as a healthcare issue,” said lead study author Dr. Paul Nestadt of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore.

“Doctors need to be asking their patients about firearm access, right alongside asking about diet choices, seatbelt use, and other behavioral contributors to mortality risk,” Nestadt said by email. “This is especially true for patients at any risk for suicide.”

[stilldropin20]

The concept you are overlooking here is deterrence. There's a reason why there are so many school shootings and nearly as many mall shootings or town festival shootings.

Bad guys know that everyone in a school is a sitting duck. Just the possibility that there are two or three teachers who are trained and armed may prevent a shooting from happening in the first place.

But, I mean, given gun ownership rates, they already don't know if some random person on the streets or in the mall or at a festival or whatever is going to have a guy, and it's a reasonable bet that one of them does. Other countries don't even have that level of disincentive and still don't have the same issues to the point where they're considering even greater "deterrence."

And there are other logistical issues, particularly where school shootings happen. For one, even on the ridiculous notion of somehow preventing a shooting with a gun, that gun has to be easily accessible given the nature and spontaneity of said shootings. If the teacher has to go to another room and unlock a safe or something, it becomes entirely beside the point, and if it's accessible, the potential for accidents far outweighs any potential to stop someone who's decided to go on a shooting spree in the first place from doing so just because they might get shot, as though that thought hadn't dawned on them previously or they aren't mentally ill and don't care. And beyond that, it would be basically impossible to keep which teachers had guns or access to guns quiet. Given that the shooters are generally students or former students, they would know and would go for those people first.

Ultimately, this is all just avoiding the obvious choice, or rather making the choice by pretending like there is a third choice when there actually isn't. You either are interested in trying to stop these kinds of shootings, or you are willing to suffer such atrocities in order to keep your guns. And let's be honest, the time to overthrow the government is a thing of the past. Drones, airplanes and modern military techniques make that impossible. We just went through a period where a large portion of the population thought the president was the antichrist or something awful, followed by a period where a large portion of the population thinks the current president is some variation of Hitler. If the government was going to be overthrown, it would have happened by now.

I don't really disagree much with this. I'm saying if that you want to use gun control as your method to reduce homicides, you need to go all the way. We need to get guns in the country down to zero. Half-measures are likely to make things worse because they take guns from the law abiding, not the criminals.

And getting our gun rate down to zero isn't gonna happen.

I know everyone is frustrated. I understand the desire to "DO SOMETHING". But if that "something" is going to make things worse, then it is better to do nothing. We have data on this stuff. Gun control in America, wherever it has been tried, has not proven to be effective. Look at DC and Chicago as case studies.

Exactly we would have to search and seize every single home in America with detailed inspections to get rid of all the guns.

Which violates at least three different bill of rights off the top my head.

In the civil libertarians will claim racial profiling the entire time and hold the thing up in court for 20 years.

The quick simple simple answer to protecting our schools that is simultaneously cost-effective is ask for volunteers from the teachers that wanna concealing carry. if I were a teacher I would happily conceal n carry but I’m former military so that’s easy for me.

Then we need to begin to hire more teachers from the military.

One point of entry.

Multiple armed guards.

Metal detectors.

And every time something like this happens we always neglect the kids in the ghetto who deserves safe passage just the same as wealthier kids deserve to be protected in the schools. the ghetto schools already have armed guards and metal detectors so they don’t have the problems in the schools they have the problems outside the schools and on the way to school and on the way home.






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[nate33]

Mapping the Overlap As these maps show, the correlation between guns and suicide is strong but inexact, since both are influenced by poverty, population density, and crime. The nine states that rank lowest in terms of gun prevalence are the very same nine that rank lowest for suicide rates. Similarly, the three states top-ranked for gun prevalence can be found among the four states ranking highest for suicide rates.

Yes. Good stuff. Suicides are dicey because there are several other factors. One in particular is race. Native Americans have very high suicide rates and whites have pretty high rates. Blacks and Hispanics have very low suicide rates.

The high Native American suicide rate is definitely a factor in the western states and Alaska.

[stilldropin20]

Trump just read my mind. pay the teachers doubling as security guards a bonus. weather they be the janitor, lunch attendant , or a teacher principal whichever. if they qualify to also be a security guard then they get a little pay raise 5-10 K per year.


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[stilldropin20]

Mapping the Overlap As these maps show, the correlation between guns and suicide is strong but inexact, since both are influenced by poverty, population density, and crime. The nine states that rank lowest in terms of gun prevalence are the very same nine that rank lowest for suicide rates. Similarly, the three states top-ranked for gun prevalence can be found among the four states ranking highest for suicide rates.

Yes. Good stuff. Suicides are dicey because there are several other factors. One in particular is race. Native Americans have very high suicide rates and whites have pretty high rates. Blacks and Hispanics have very low suicide rates.

The high Native American suicide rate is definitely a factor in the western states and Alaska.

Maybe I misread Kanye post. Sorry if I jumped the gun.


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[Kanyewest]

Mapping the Overlap As these maps show, the correlation between guns and suicide is strong but inexact, since both are influenced by poverty, population density, and crime. The nine states that rank lowest in terms of gun prevalence are the very same nine that rank lowest for suicide rates. Similarly, the three states top-ranked for gun prevalence can be found among the four states ranking highest for suicide rates.

Yes. Good stuff. Suicides are dicey because there are several other factors. One in particular is race. Native Americans have very high suicide rates and whites have pretty high rates. Blacks and Hispanics have very low suicide rates.

The high Native American suicide rate is definitely a factor in the western states and Alaska.

Yeah, could also be the lack of sunlight in Alaska depending on the time of year. Other studies would be to compare rural populations between specific states. Although this give a rough estimate that doesn't favor gun ownership and suicides overall.

[Doug_Blew]

Trump just read my mind. pay the teachers doubling as security guards a bonus. weather they be the janitor, lunch attendant , or a teacher principal whichever. if they qualify to also be a security guard then they get a little pay raise 5-10 K per year.


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Just to add to this thought. We could pay some of the older 18 year old students to carry a concealed weapon ...provided that they pass a background check. This way our schools are being protected and you wouldn't have to pay the 18 year old as much as you would have to pay the janitor.

[cammac]

Trump just read my mind. pay the teachers doubling as security guards a bonus. weather they be the janitor, lunch attendant , or a teacher principal whichever. if they qualify to also be a security guard then they get a little pay raise 5-10 K per year.


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Exactly how is this going to happen is the janitor going to wear a bullet proof vest with a AK47 strapped across his shoulder????
The reality is that most of these attacks are by heavily armed individuals many with bullet proof vests!
Guns having large clips to improve fire power! I remember the bank robbers I believe in LA that decimated the police with firepower. One of the reasons police units are more heavily armed today.
I know I would feel comfortable with a janitor, teacher, principal with loaded weapons taking on a well armed ruthless domestic terrorist.

[queridiculo]

why am I not surprised that the answer to this issue is going to be more weapons and more police.

I don't want either to be anywhere near a place of learning.

[stilldropin20]

:lol: why am I not surprised that the answer to this issue is going to be more weapons and more police.

I don't want either to be anywhere near a place of learning.

This problem is not going away without defensive measures and offense of measures. You Gotta have both.

And frankly you need a spy network as well.

We must encourage these children to be heroes and “ tell on “ the bad kids and once the bad kids kid identified they need to be watched an essay FBI whatever all their social media needs to be watched and of these kids are danger I need to be going to school someplace else much more secure.



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[Kanyewest]

Trump just read my mind. pay the teachers doubling as security guards a bonus. weather they be the janitor, lunch attendant , or a teacher principal whichever. if they qualify to also be a security guard then they get a little pay raise 5-10 K per year.


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Just to add to this thought. We could pay some of the older 18 year old students to carry a concealed weapon ...provided that they pass a background check. This way our schools are being protected and you wouldn't have to pay the 18 year old as much as you would have to pay the janitor.

Honestly could see potential shooters applying for these jobs.

[cammac]

A short time ago I told you my step daughter was working for a Confucius Institute when she went to university and some of the things they organized (Note: She is anti communist). Also the Federal government looked into them and believed they were pawns of the Chinese government.

Wray was responding to questions from Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), who called Confucius Institutes “complicit” in China’s larger efforts “to covertly influence public opinion.” Earlier this month, Rubio sent a letter to Florida schools, urging them to shut down their Confucius Institutes.
I spent a year and a half studying Confucius Institutes. I found they misled students about China’s history and pressured American scholars to keep quiet about China’s unsavory policies. The Chinese director of one Institute told me that if a student asked about Tiananmen Square, she would “show a picture and point out the beautiful architecture.”

I try to offer a balance view this proves it.

http://thehill.com/opinion/education/375092-get-chinas-pernicious-confucius-institutes-out-of-us-colleges

[Pointgod]

:lol: why am I not surprised that the answer to this issue is going to be more weapons and more police.

I don't want either to be anywhere near a place of learning.

I swear to God America is something. The only place where the solution to a problem is to add more of that problem.

Every other country after a mass shooting: This is awful, obviously there's something wrong with our gun laws.

America: Hold my beer.

[TGW]

Yes, let's arm the teachers! That's a great idea.

I wonder how long until an armed teacher pulls out a gun on an unruly student. And then the students bring guns to school because they're afraid of the teachers. That's making america great again!

[Pointgod]

There have been a lot of bear attacks in this area, let's add more bears to fight off the bears attacking people!