Political Roundtable Part XIX

[cammac]

While I do agree with Zonk's definition it is far deeper than that in that it is the donor class that is the true "Deep State". This includes both parties but the Republicans are much more insidious and more complicit. You only have to look at the Trump Cabinet yes they have grovelled to him but he isn't the true master of them. All you need to look at is who brought them to prominence?

The only way to combat it is "We The People" movement. Howard Dean was the leader of the movement in his Presidential run. Now Bernie, Beto O"Rourke, Randy Bryce and Conor Lamb have followed his lead. It is obvious a change on how contributions are made to political parties on both sides. Races in House, Senate & Presidential elections should be capped and if a candidate gets 25% of the vote they are reimbursed by the government for 50% of the election cost. This give "Joe Citizen" a chance to make a real difference rather than the privileged elite. The proof is in the Republican tax plan on who benefited and who will be left to pick up the pieces of the deficit. Dckingfan is right wholesale changes need to be made to benefit all and this would be a true stepping stone.

[Zonkerbl]

The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

You should read "The Anti-Politics Machine" by James Ferguson. It is the best treatment of the deep state I've read.

Tl;dr version:
There is a thing called the deep state (he doesn't say it in so many words, you have to infer it). There are unelected government officials who can't be fired and make decisions about how to spend taxpayer money with very little supervision. This much is absolutely true. I'm one of them and I've been working in the "deep state" my entire career. It is extremely dysfunctional and inefficient, and only kinda necessary.

The deep state is a *focus* of power. The deep state takes every opportunity it can to spread its influence to make sure that decisions are channeled through the bureaucracy. However, the deep state doesn't *wield* power, except very passively through inertia - it's hard to change things quickly. The State Department has everything very carefully woven together and you are supposed to only make incremental changes.

The deep state is like cancer. It is only interested in replicating itself. It doesn't take over the body and make you do stuff you don't want - you're still in control, to the extent that you really are in control of your body - until the cancer kills you. It isn't a being with a mind and a will and a purpose. All it does is is force people to go through them to make a decision.

So to accuse a cancer of having ill will towards its victim is to entirely misunderstand the nature of cancer. Cancer don't give a **** about you or your politics or who you voted for or any of that. Cancer cares about cancer. Cancer wants to live and spread - that's it.

The "deep state" isn't secretly pulling behind the scenes levers to target Trump. Trump is being investigated because Trump broke several laws on national tv like an idiot. Trump has no one to blame for being investigated by the "deep state" but himself.

I'd characterize what you are describing as the "permanent bureaucracy". It is a component of the Deep State, but not all of it. In addition to what you are describing, there are individuals within the intelligence community and upper levels of the State and Defense Departments who exert more conscious control of things. I also believe extortion, black mail and selective disinformation are used to keep certain elected representatives in line. That said, I don't believe there is a single-minded command and control structure. There are multiple players with their own agendas. But the bottom line is that government is not in the full control of elected officials.

Ferguson talks about the "wielders" of power and how amazingly ineffective the government is at accomplishing anything other than spreading bureaucracy. The whole argument between Capitalists and Socialists regarding development projects - Capitalists say that building modern capitalist institutions in developing countries helps raise incomes and combat poverty, Socialists argue that building modern capitalist institutions is simply spreading the means by which to exploit the masses - assumes that development projects are in fact successful at building modern capitalist institutions, which they are NOT. Capitalists and Socialists have been having this decades long argument about something that DOES NOT HAPPEN. The weird thing about the World Bank and other dev institutions is that they keep failing, over and over and over again, and yet they keep at it. They fail to accomplish their *explicit* goals (building Democratic/Capitalist institutions) but succeed at spreading bureaucracy, particularly in rural areas.

[stilldropin20]

The first attribute Trump looks for in any appointment is loyalty to Trump. Being capable is far down the list. Trump is flat out encouraging his people to commit perjury and arguably treason.

you and zonker live in some fricking dream world where world leaders are good people. where billionaires are NOT the most despicable pieces of **** that walk the planet. where loyalty to one of these despicable world leaders or billionaires is ok so long as (they do good PR and trick your dumbasses into thinking) that leader or billionaire agrees with your basic principles. SO LONG AS YOU AGREE WITH THEM(their PR machines).

News flash: Billionaires suck. World leaders make tough decision. people die every day based on their decisions. Policy is made unfavorable to some and more favorable to others every single day.

So here's the question. After 8 years of Obama and 20% unemployment rates for black people during most of his time as president. I'm wondering what obama did so well for everyone? and specifically black people? Doesn't look like much advancement at all besides culturally which was well underway since the 1970's and 80's.

Where under trump black unemployments is at its lowest ever and wages at their highest ever.

Imagine for one second how well trump might do if we allowed him to actually govern. If he could just be trump and the media didn't report every single negative spin it could on every single move he makes or doesn't make.

Because for the most part, he seems to be making all the right moves with the economy. with ISIS. with trade. with NK. with Iran. With syria. He's got them all back-peddling on their heels. He is sticking to his campaign pledges-which you may or may not agree with but this is something all politicians should do-campaign on issues then fight to push that agenda through. where most other politicians completely abandon their campaign pledges.

[Zonkerbl]

I guess the question is, is there an organized effort in the United States government equivalent in intent to, and as efficient as, Putin's systematic attempt to undermine Democracy in the United States, except it's kept secret even from the President?

Well, we did have a systematic effort to target the Black Panthers in the 60s by Hoover. Did Kennedy know? Maybe it's not *that* farfetched.

[Ruzious]

The first attribute Trump looks for in any appointment is loyalty to Trump. Being capable is far down the list. Trump is flat out encouraging his people to commit perjury and arguably treason.

Blablabla yadayadayada completely unrelated to anything said as usual but supposedly insightful and yet completely lacking in insite yadayadayada blablabla zzzzzzzz.... ball-washing... I am all that and a box of used condoms... blablabla yabadababingbong.

Did somebody say something?

[gtn130]

So here's the question. After 8 years of Obama and 20% unemployment rates for black people during most of his time as president. I'm wondering what obama did so well for everyone? and specifically black people? Doesn't look like much advancement at all besides culturally which was well underway since the 1970's and 80's.

Where under trump black unemployments is at its lowest ever and wages at their highest ever.

Gonna ignore all of your other idiocy for a moment and point out that you're flat out objectively wrong and more likely just making things up here.



Unemployment rate for black/AfAm never once hit 20% under Obama. It peaked at 16.5% near the height of the recession and steadily went down every year. You're legitimately just making things up to feed your bullsh*t narratives.

You're pretty much a dishonest scumbag is what I'm driving at here.

[nate33]

Read on Twitter

[Pointgod]

What Zonks just described is not the notion of the "deep state" but rather how bureaucracy works. The same bureacracy youll find in any company that has existed for decades. Why is it that it's not until Trump starts **** the bed that the talk of "deep state" starts ? The reason that the whole "deep state" talk gets into the lexicon is that right wing voters are guillable idiots that believe every conspiracy theory. Remember Jade Helm and FEMA death camps under Obama? Why is it that the illuminati and bildeberg groups control every President up until Trump, yet Trump has given the TOP 1% the biggest tax breaks they could hope for and he hasn't wavered from the Republican agenda.

gtn130 is right. Only morons believe the deep state talk since everyone leading the investigation are Republicans and some even appointed by Trump!

[dckingsfan]

I think Zonk's description is solid as well - and it doesn't make it any less nefarious.

I think it is also a reason why we have Trump in the first place.

See, I disagree with both of these. I don't think deep state by that description in and of itself is nefarious. I think it's a tool that can be nefarious if used for such, and I also think it's an equally dangerous tool if used by people that don't understand it.

As for a reason for Trump, I disagree pretty strongly on that one. Trump won because of fear and greed. And yeah, there is fear of deep state, but not the kind Zonk described; though the other more common definition of deep state I described does play into that.

We get to agree to disagree

I think it IS nefarious when institutions start running the government and creating rules vs. the legislative body. And when those same institutions propagate themselves. When it happens within companies - they most often go bankrupt - hence why most CEOs want to get rid of their silos.

And I think that the same was used by Trump. It wasn't the only reason that he won but the fear of what those institutions have done is one of the reasons.

It isn't to difficult to use fear against non-transparent self-propagating institutions that have their own agenda. Trump tapped into with the "draining the swamp" slogan. It wasn't difficult for Trump to move from notion to half-truth to full out lie.

[stilldropin20]

The Deep State has initiated a strategy to make anyone associated with Trump suffer the financial and possibly legal consequences of an investigatory anal exam. Their goal is to cripple Trump by denying him of any capable staff. Trump pardoning Libby is an appropriate response.

You should read "The Anti-Politics Machine" by James Ferguson. It is the best treatment of the deep state I've read.

Tl;dr version:
There is a thing called the deep state (he doesn't say it in so many words, you have to infer it). There are unelected government officials who can't be fired and make decisions about how to spend taxpayer money with very little supervision. This much is absolutely true. I'm one of them and I've been working in the "deep state" my entire career. It is extremely dysfunctional and inefficient, and only kinda necessary.

The deep state is a *focus* of power. The deep state takes every opportunity it can to spread its influence to make sure that decisions are channeled through the bureaucracy. However, the deep state doesn't *wield* power, except very passively through inertia - it's hard to change things quickly. The State Department has everything very carefully woven together and you are supposed to only make incremental changes.

The deep state is like cancer. It is only interested in replicating itself. It doesn't take over the body and make you do stuff you don't want - you're still in control, to the extent that you really are in control of your body - until the cancer kills you. It isn't a being with a mind and a will and a purpose. All it does is is force people to go through them to make a decision.

So to accuse a cancer of having ill will towards its victim is to entirely misunderstand the nature of cancer. Cancer don't give a **** about you or your politics or who you voted for or any of that. Cancer cares about cancer. Cancer wants to live and spread - that's it.

The "deep state" isn't secretly pulling behind the scenes levers to target Trump. Trump is being investigated because Trump broke several laws on national tv like an idiot. Trump has no one to blame for being investigated by the "deep state" but himself.

To understand the deep state you have to eventually come to understand some basic principles about our country, our consititution, our government.

1. The basic principle that our constitution is a good thing and written to protect the basic everyday people, not the wealthy elite ruling class.

2. The wealthy elite ruling class is motivated to use its money and influence on our politicians to work for them, the elites, and not the everyday people.

3. As good hearted as the constitution is, the wealthy elites were around back then just as they are now, so the constitution and all of the laws to follow on local and federal levels have holes in them. Enough holes that allowed the elite, wealthy, ruling class to yield both more power through their money to have written more favorable laws and policies which allow them to yield even more money.

If you understand those basic principles then you are on the right path to understanding the deep state. I would add that the deep state is not necessarily executed by smart people with good judgment. and the "deep state" is made up of multi-platform ideologues.

--Some deep staters are just rebels without a cause. just going with the flow of others. a type of anarchist that resists power not matter the ideology.

--Some deep state is there to resist change to existing swamp culture of the federal government where every single dept overspends and under manages so as to maintain their existing budgets. (in the federal gvt when you do a good job and manage well you are rewarded with less money in the following year's budget. Strange, I know. So they all over spend and under manage. This is your standard bureaucracy swamp culture that exist in government its basic level and on all levels. and some "deep staters" like it just the way it is. they dont want smaller budgets the following year "just in case" so they overspend every single year on their current budgets. On th elocal level this is harder because local taxes must be raised and local citizen wont go for this crap that exists at the federal level where we just keep borrowing.


--some "deep staters" resist change to policy. they are libs and dont like conservatives. and vice versa.

--some "deep staters" are very high level lobbyists or future lobbyists. so they are getting paid or will be paid by the wealthy elite who use government for their own financial gain and pay off politicians for favorable legislation.

--some "deep staters" are do gooders. AKA whistleblowers. They actually want to do the right thing and think they are doing the right thing.

--some are criminals. stealing for their own gain. and exposing other criminals so as to spare themselves from punishment for their own crimes. often time times framing innocent people.

You are a GOTdamn fool if you dont understand these principles and the existence of these factions.

[I_Like_Dirt]

See, it's that agenda that's the issue. I don't see it. Self-propagating, sure, but it's tough to say that gardens have an agenda, but left to their own devices you wind up with a bunch of weeds. Left to its own devices, it grows. The responsibility is on government and the citizens to trim and maintain it and we've done a piss poor job of that and our own agendas have gotten in the way.

[cammac]

It seems that Pee Pee Brain Trump is preparing to fire Rob Rosenstein maybe as soon as early next week. Does that move up Mueller's schedule on indictments. it would be almost impossible for Trumpster to fire Rosenstein if Don Jr., Jarad Kushner and Rosen were charged. You can be quite sure by this time he already has those grand jury indictment in hand. Plus others in the Trump orbit like Stone, Prince, Hicks and maybe even Sessions.

[cammac]

What does SD20, Donald Trump & Elliott Broidy (RNC finance offical) have in common?
Playboy Bunnies at least two out of the three have paid them off! What about you SD20???

RNC finance official resigns after acknowledging payment to Playboy model
© Getty Images

Elliott Broidy, the venture capitalist who admitted Friday to paying a Playboy "playmate" who said she was pregnant with his child, has stepped down from his post on the Republican National Committee's finance team

Broidy is at the center of a new Journal report that revealed that Michael Cohen, President Trump's personal lawyer, helped negotiate a $1.6 million payment to the model in 2017.

Broidy confirmed the affair to the Journal and admitted that he "offered to help her financially" after she told him "she did not want to continue with the pregnancy."

Those FAMILY VALUE'S Reptilians.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/383069-rnc-finance-official-resigns-after-acknowledging-payment-to-playboy-model

[dckingsfan]

See, it's that agenda that's the issue. I don't see it. Self-propagating, sure, but it's tough to say that gardens have an agenda, but left to their own devices you wind up with a bunch of weeds. Left to its own devices, it grows. The responsibility is on government and the citizens to trim and maintain it and we've done a piss poor job of that and our own agendas have gotten in the way.

Don't disagree that it is the responsibility of local government, state and federal legislatures to control the previously mentioned institutions.

But those institutions do have agendas and they aren't transparent, they are jumbled.

[closg00]

It seems that Pee Brain Trump is preparing to fire Rob Rosenstein maybe as soon as early next week. Does that move up Mueller's schedule on indictments. it would be almost impossible for Trumpster to fire Rosenstein if Don Jr., Jarad Kushner and Rosen were charged. You can be quite sure by this time he already has those grand jury indictment in hand. Plus others in the Trump orbit like Stone, Prince, Hicks and maybe even Sessions.

Speaking of pee pee, in Comey's book, Trump is fixated on the pee pee allegations to the exclusion of everything else. This is a classic Trump "tell", the pee pee tape is REAL and is consistent with everything we now know about this major scumbag DJT.

[dckingsfan]

I think if "deep state" was framed as Zonk described - numbers would be even higher.

[stilldropin20]

It seems that Pee Brain Trump is preparing to fire Rob Rosenstein maybe as soon as early next week. Does that move up Mueller's schedule on indictments. it would be almost impossible for Trumpster to fire Rosenstein if Don Jr., Jarad Kushner and Rosen were charged. You can be quite sure by this time he already has those grand jury indictment in hand. Plus others in the Trump orbit like Stone, Prince, Hicks and maybe even Sessions.

Speaking of pee pee, in Comey's book, Trump is fixated on the pee pee allegations to the exclusion of everything else. This is a classic Trump "tell", the pee pee tape is REAL and is consistent with everything we now know about this major scumbag DJT.

what, you never gave or received a golden shower? jeez. get out and live a little.

[gtn130]

Read on Twitter

WITCH HUNT!!! NO COLLUSION!!!

[Pointgod]

It seems that Pee Pee Brain Trump is preparing to fire Rob Rosenstein maybe as soon as early next week. Does that move up Mueller's schedule on indictments. it would be almost impossible for Trumpster to fire Rosenstein if Don Jr., Jarad Kushner and Rosen were charged. You can be quite sure by this time he already has those grand jury indictment in hand. Plus others in the Trump orbit like Stone, Prince, Hicks and maybe even Sessions.

Trust me Mueller has already thought all of this through. Him and his team is 1000 times smarter than anyone in Trump's orbit. Fire Rosenstein and it keeps going.

[Pointgod]

I think if "deep state" was framed as Zonk described - numbers would be even higher.

So 65% of people are **** morons.