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Political Roundtable Part XXVI

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1661 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 3, 2019 2:33 pm

And in other news... Wednesday, October 2nd Polls - looks more and more like I will be working for Warren.

Code: Select all

               Monmouth   Economist
Warren                 28        28
Biden                  25        22
Sanders                15        13
Buttigieg               5         7
Harris                  5         5
Yang                    2         3
O'Rourke                1         3
Booker                  1         2
Kobuchar                1         1
Castro                  1         1
Gabbard                 0         2
Bennet                  0         2
Styeyer                 1         1
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1662 » by Wizardspride » Thu Oct 3, 2019 2:42 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19


Read on Twitter
?s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1663 » by UcanUwill » Thu Oct 3, 2019 2:48 pm

Doug_Blew wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
You talking about the same lemming that pushed the Russia Hoax nonsense. I told ya'll TGW is STD's alt account. He screwed up and quoted himself a while back referring to a TGW quote as STD. :lol:


It wouldn't surprise me if they're the same person. I remember STD talking about alt accounts and he obviously likes pretending to be something that he's not.


No way thats real, unless he is truly racist sociopath. Fact he has supporters and divided this country shows how unprogressive and disgusting the country is deep down. Makes more and more sense why initially people were afraid to publicly admit they support him, because every right wing racists deep down knows his views are evil. Thats why a lot of mocks were projecting Hillary to win.
I remember one comment saying, that Trump is not Hitler, far from it, but he is exactly the person who could inspire next Hitler. This guy makes terrible evil beliefs celebratable.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1664 » by Wizardspride » Thu Oct 3, 2019 2:51 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1665 » by Kanyewest » Thu Oct 3, 2019 3:00 pm

dckingsfan wrote:And in other news... Wednesday, October 2nd Polls - looks more and more like I will be working for Warren.

Code: Select all

               Monmouth   Economist
Warren                 28        28
Biden                  25        22
Sanders                15        13
Buttigieg               5         7
Harris                  5         5
Yang                    2         3
O'Rourke                1         3
Booker                  1         2
Kobuchar                1         1
Castro                  1         1
Gabbard                 0         2
Bennet                  0         2
Styeyer                 1         1


Some weird things going on in the two last Economist polls. From the last poll, Biden is -4 and Bernie is -3 but Warren is only +1. People who gained support were Mayor Pete (+1), Harris (+1 :o ), Yang (+1), Booker (+2 :o ), Gabbard (+2 :o ) and Bennett (+2 :o :o )

Monmouth actually shows Biden's support increasing from 19 to 25 but Warren increased her margin from 20 to 28 with Bernie being the biggest loser, from 20 to 13.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1666 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Oct 3, 2019 3:02 pm

What does the word "neoliberalism" mean to you? As an economist I assume it is some evolution of "neoclassicism," which was Friedman's view of the world that all government intervention that wasn't directly addressing a market failure was "bad." With a heavy emphasis on just how bad the government was in all its incarnations. So in my mind "neoliberalism" takes that same idea but emphasizes how important and necessary it is for the government to intervene in the market to correct market failures. So judo Friedman's idea and make it into a story about what good government looks like. And when the Dems were in power they talked a lot about "smart government," so I always assumed that's what it meant.

But maybe there's a non-economist definition that is basically the political compromise between hard core neoconservatives and whatever passes as "liberal" policy among the GOP-life Democrats of the nineties. So "free trade with some protections for laborers and the environment, privatize privatize privatize. And your life only has worth to the extent that you participate in the formal labor market."

As non-economists, tell me, what do you think neoliberal means?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1667 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Oct 3, 2019 3:05 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
Doug_Blew wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:


It wouldn't surprise me if they're the same person. I remember STD talking about alt accounts and he obviously likes pretending to be something that he's not.


No way thats real, unless he is truly racist sociopath. Fact he has supporters and divided this country shows how unprogressive and disgusting the country is deep down. Makes more and more sense why initially people were afraid to publicly admit they support him, because every right wing racists deep down knows his views are evil. Thats why a lot of mocks were projecting Hillary to win.
I remember one comment saying, that Trump is not Hitler, far from it, but he is exactly the person who could inspire next Hitler. This guy makes terrible evil beliefs celebratable.


And now Trump's strategy seems to be to just go out and commit crimes in public to make people think it's normal.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/464196-trump-urges-ukraine-china-to-investigate-bidens
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1668 » by doclinkin » Thu Oct 3, 2019 3:15 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:What does the word "neoliberalism" mean to you? As an economist I assume it is some evolution of "neoclassicism," which was Friedman's view of the world that all government intervention that wasn't directly addressing a market failure was "bad." With a heavy emphasis on just how bad the government was in all its incarnations. So in my mind "neoliberalism" takes that same idea but emphasizes how important and necessary it is for the government to intervene in the market to correct market failures. So judo Friedman's idea and make it into a story about what good government looks like. And when the Dems were in power they talked a lot about "smart government," so I always assumed that's what it meant.

But maybe there's a non-economist definition that is basically the political compromise between hard core neoconservatives and whatever passes as "liberal" policy among the GOP-life Democrats of the nineties. So "free trade with some protections for laborers and the environment, privatize privatize privatize. And your life only has worth to the extent that you participate in the formal labor market."

As non-economists, tell me, what do you think neoliberal means?


It means: In a world where billionaires control economies and elections, if you want to be a do-gooder you still have to please your corporate overlords. Somebody has to pay for civilization, you need not the consent of the people to govern but the consent of the big money donors and the five companies who control all media.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1669 » by Wizardspride » Thu Oct 3, 2019 3:40 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1670 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 3, 2019 3:54 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:What does the word "neoliberalism" mean to you? As an economist I assume it is some evolution of "neoclassicism," which was Friedman's view of the world that all government intervention that wasn't directly addressing a market failure was "bad." With a heavy emphasis on just how bad the government was in all its incarnations. So in my mind "neoliberalism" takes that same idea but emphasizes how important and necessary it is for the government to intervene in the market to correct market failures. So judo Friedman's idea and make it into a story about what good government looks like. And when the Dems were in power they talked a lot about "smart government," so I always assumed that's what it meant.

But maybe there's a non-economist definition that is basically the political compromise between hard core neoconservatives and whatever passes as "liberal" policy among the GOP-life Democrats of the nineties. So "free trade with some protections for laborers and the environment, privatize privatize privatize. And your life only has worth to the extent that you participate in the formal labor market."

As non-economists, tell me, what do you think neoliberal means?

It means: In a world where billionaires control economies and elections, if you want to be a do-gooder you still have to please your corporate overlords. Somebody has to pay for civilization, you need not the consent of the people to govern but the consent of the big money donors and the five companies who control all media.

Are we talking worldwide or are we talking the US? Are we talking the last 20 years or the last 200 years?

I think when you take a snap-shot of a short period of time things look much more skewed?

Take media. It wasn't long ago that it was just radio/TV/newspapers and magazines. Now?

The "corporate overlords" of today are different that 20 years ago which are different from 20 years before that and 20 years before that.

What has happened is rapid change. What has happened is that our political systems have not been very good at quickly adapting to the change (but market forces have been). Neither the current conservatives and R establishment or the current liberals and D establishment have been able to move toward a political approach that favors free-market capitalism or deregulation. Nor have they been able to move toward a reduction in government spending (where the programs have not worked).

So, possibly the right answer is that there is no "neoliberalism" today?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1671 » by gtn130 » Thu Oct 3, 2019 4:01 pm

neoliberal = centrist incrementalists who will play nice with lobbyists and not rock the boat. Hillary/Romney/Bush/Schumer/Pelosi/Blue Dog Dems etc.

Obama is basically a neoliberal as well.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1672 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 3, 2019 4:05 pm

gtn130 wrote:neoliberal = centrist incrementalists who will play nice with lobbyists and not rock the boat. Hillary/Romney/Bush/Schumer/Pelosi/Blue Dog Dems etc.

Obama is basically a neoliberal as well.

What will be interesting to see is if a progressive gets in and accomplishes nothing. Are they then centrist incrementalists as well?

Or do you have to bark at the moon with unworkable both politically and feasibly impossible to increment to not be a centrist incrementalist?

Just asking for a friend :D
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1673 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Oct 3, 2019 4:07 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:What does the word "neoliberalism" mean to you? As an economist I assume it is some evolution of "neoclassicism," which was Friedman's view of the world that all government intervention that wasn't directly addressing a market failure was "bad." With a heavy emphasis on just how bad the government was in all its incarnations. So in my mind "neoliberalism" takes that same idea but emphasizes how important and necessary it is for the government to intervene in the market to correct market failures. So judo Friedman's idea and make it into a story about what good government looks like. And when the Dems were in power they talked a lot about "smart government," so I always assumed that's what it meant.

But maybe there's a non-economist definition that is basically the political compromise between hard core neoconservatives and whatever passes as "liberal" policy among the GOP-life Democrats of the nineties. So "free trade with some protections for laborers and the environment, privatize privatize privatize. And your life only has worth to the extent that you participate in the formal labor market."

As non-economists, tell me, what do you think neoliberal means?


It's sort of both. It's basically arguing to leave the economy alone and stay out of it unless the economy comes asking for money at which point give it to them. So long as that first principle holds, then you everything else liberal is fair game in terms of promoting rights and such. It's a massive oversimplification on my end, though. I sort of agree with neoliberalism in the sense of the problems it's trying to address while also have some major problems with it, too, because it tends to make some rather massive leaps of logic like treating economies and people separately as though they aren't the same thing from a different angle. And yes, when Democrats talk about smart government, I've always assumed they mean trying to stay out of the way of the economy, too. The "neo" part is staying out of the economy's way while the "liberal" part means rights, equality, freedom and all those other subjective liberal values.

To be honest, it's that idea that is at the heart of the progressive push you're seeing within the Democratic party today, as best I can tell. Younger generations are realizing that an ineffective king rat of regulations or no regulations at all aren't actually more effective but just appear cheaper in the future but in reality is a form of payday loan with outrageous interest that they're going to have to pay on behalf of their parents, as well as the realization that legitimate equality doesn't seem like something the economy is actually interested in so they're questioning the value of such a compromise.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1674 » by gtn130 » Thu Oct 3, 2019 4:23 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
gtn130 wrote:neoliberal = centrist incrementalists who will play nice with lobbyists and not rock the boat. Hillary/Romney/Bush/Schumer/Pelosi/Blue Dog Dems etc.

Obama is basically a neoliberal as well.

What will be interesting to see is if a progressive gets in and accomplishes nothing. Are they then centrist incrementalists as well?

Or do you have to bark at the moon with unworkable both politically and feasibly impossible to increment to not be a centrist incrementalist?

Just asking for a friend :D


Passing serious legislation is a pipe dream for any candidate at this point because of fundamental partisanship. A centrist isn't passing anything because they still represent a political party.

A President who is genuinely committed to fighting lobbyists and weakening corporate control can still do a variety of things beyond passing landmark legislation though - strengthening the CFPB, actually abiding by anti-trust laws, appointing people to the FCC who aren't corporate shills, generally appointing people who don't have any corporate interests to important positions, and so on.

There is plenty that Warren can do that Hillary would not have done.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1675 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:05 pm

dckingsfan wrote:What has happened is rapid change. What has happened is that our political systems have not been very good at quickly adapting to the change (but market forces have been). Neither the current conservatives and R establishment or the current liberals and D establishment have been able to move toward a political approach that favors free-market capitalism or deregulation. Nor have they been able to move toward a reduction in government spending (where the programs have not worked).



I look at this a little differently. Changes has happened whether anyone has wanted it or not. Because the change has happened so fast, we've seen a lot of the economy attempt to co-opt government to try to stymie that change and governments, who have largely struggled to adapt to quick changes at any point in history, have struggled even more because of it. The end result is that we've seen the response to change as one that largely benefits the existing economy and when it doesn't, you see government bailouts which are another means of propping up the existing economy and stymying change insofar as is possible.

This isn't new, either. Just, as you say, the pace of change has been accelerated of late. Social media in particular is a revolution in communication that we don't fully understand yet and the internet has gone from being a novelty that only a few sections of society used at a set desk to a much more widespread and all-encompassing idea that can now be carried with you in your pocket. The advent of the printing press, translations of the bible, etc. caused all sorts of schisms and wars and such. There are just way more people now, and way more destructive power as a species so the stakes are higher than ever.

I think a truly unregulated market is dangerous. I'm for far more streamlined and enforceable sets of regulations that are far better enforced. And I also think we need to rethink the idea that governments should stay out of the economy where necessary and recognize that it's something that needs to work both ways. We also need to keep the economy out of government to a point. Governments being guided by successful businesses of today is a great recipe for stymying change and preventing the great businesses of tomorrow. We don't necessarily want decisions being made in government that are better for the existing economy in the present because it means that we won't be so readily capable of taking advantage of change as it happens. The earlier countries unchain themselves from a reliance on fossil fuels, the better off they will be economically, socially and medically in the future. Nobody wants to pay today for something they'll get tomorrow, though. They'd rather have now and pay a much steeper price later, and so we get what we get.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1676 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:37 pm

gtn130 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
gtn130 wrote:neoliberal = centrist incrementalists who will play nice with lobbyists and not rock the boat. Hillary/Romney/Bush/Schumer/Pelosi/Blue Dog Dems etc.

Obama is basically a neoliberal as well.

What will be interesting to see is if a progressive gets in and accomplishes nothing. Are they then centrist incrementalists as well?

Or do you have to bark at the moon with unworkable both politically and feasibly impossible to increment to not be a centrist incrementalist?

Just asking for a friend :D

Passing serious legislation is a pipe dream for any candidate at this point because of fundamental partisanship. A centrist isn't passing anything because they still represent a political party.

A President who is genuinely committed to fighting lobbyists and weakening corporate control can still do a variety of things beyond passing landmark legislation though - strengthening the CFPB, actually abiding by anti-trust laws, appointing people to the FCC who aren't corporate shills, generally appointing people who don't have any corporate interests to important positions, and so on.

There is plenty that Warren can do that Hillary would not have done.

Might be a bit different climate now? If Warren were president in the 60s - you could say the same? And then when Hillary came after she would be the progressive.

Hillary had the most progressive platform ever run by a D candidate, no?

And with respect - paraphrasing that neo-fascist (since we have rolling definitions) Bill Clinton - "its the tax code stupid".

If Warren can't get any changes in the tax code - she will have done virtually nothing. And since you say there will be no serious legislation passed - then is she not just another centrist?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1677 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:46 pm

dckingsfan wrote:If Warren can't get any changes in the tax code - she will have done virtually nothing. And since you say there will be no serious legislation passed - then is she not just another centrist?


I think it's the tax code where Warren is actually going to have the most success, were she to win, in all honesty. Whether that success would translate to good or bad or some other kind of results, I'm not sure, but she does seem to be the one candidate who hits a bit more on the nuance there. Some others do to a degree, and differently as well. I don't even know if I'll agree with any of the changes to the tax code she proposes or manages to pass but I suspect she's going to target the tax code pretty heavily.

With respect to her other policies, I'm quietly optimistic on the potential for environmental reforms of some form, though how they wind up looking in the end, I'm not sure - just because the public voice for that kind of thing seems to be building. And weirdly enough, I also am a bit curious to see how successful she'd be with her maternity leave platform, which I think is a legitimately good idea.

That said, to your point, if she doesn't achieve anything, can she even be defined as anything? Even a centrist? That's more being president during the time of a failed political system, and how much blame she would shoulder would depend on the circumstances. Something will come through - it's just hard to predict what and when.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1678 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:49 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:Changes has happened whether anyone has wanted it or not.

Correct, and those changes have accelerated (as you pointed out in the rest of the post).
I_Like_Dirt wrote:We've seen a lot of the economy attempt to co-opt government to try to stymie that change and governments.

Always has been always will be but the changes are accelerating and our government, politics and political systems haven't been able to keep pace.
I_Like_Dirt wrote:I think a truly unregulated market is dangerous. I'm for far more streamlined and enforceable sets of regulations that are far better enforced.

And that brings up a problem with a government that can't keep pace and is unable to roll back even the worst of its policies. They have no notion of continual improvement of our social programs. Basically more not better. None of the candidates are about making the government "better" (as a whole).
I_Like_Dirt wrote:We also need to keep the economy out of government to a point.

And then you have candidates wanting to take more control of the economy with a series of even more convoluted legislation. That isn't going to work - it is just going to make things worse. Please see the sets of proposals from the current batch of candidates.

And yet, I am voting for a D even if it is just a curbstone with a D stamped on it. Trump has risen to power on the ineffectiveness of our governmental system. I fear that this will just become cyclical as the next ineffective (but better intentioned) group comes to power.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1679 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:53 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:I think it's the tax code where Warren is actually going to have the most success, were she to win, in all honesty.

What do you think she could get through congress (assuming the Rs keep the senate)?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1680 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Oct 3, 2019 5:59 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:We also need to keep the economy out of government to a point.

And then you have candidates wanting to take more control of the economy with a series of even more convoluted legislation. That isn't going to work - it is just going to make things worse. Please see the sets of proposals from the current batch of candidates.

And yet, I am voting for a D even if it is just a curbstone with a D stamped on it. Trump has risen to power on the ineffectiveness of our governmental system. I fear that this will just become cyclical as the next ineffective (but better intentioned) group comes to power.



See, more deeply on that point, I don't actually think it's possible. It's still a power spectrum. Government has it's flaws and requires checks on the economy just as the reverse, but government does need to be more involved in the economy right now because the checks and balances are basically all gone on the economy side - that's where I see neoliberalism having failed. You can't fully separate the economy and government no matter how much neoliberalism or fiscal conservatism might wish that to be possible. And no, I don't agree with all the proposals of any candidate but that's not a likely scenario in general. So long as someone is suggesting something. Right now the economy is going over an environmental cliff and won't stop itself. Government is going to need to figure out a way to effectively intervene. And yes, I'm open to bad ideas over no ideas. I'd rather see the car roll and come to a stop than go off the cliff.

But no, it's not that the economy is somehow adapting to changes in ways that the government hasn't been. It's that the economy is going to exist and profiteer either way. They have the easy job in all of this. Government needs to be taken back to start working for the people a little more again, and for the people with a longer view than they'd often ideally like. The economy isn't adapting to change, though. It's largely stagnating and figuring out ways to try continue non-stop economic growth for its own sake as most of the players involved don't know any other way of operating.
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