Official Trade Thread - Part XXXII

[NatP4]

Per DA (saw a video on the raps board),

Wiz interested in Wilson Chandler. We have no fillers to offer unless we unload Nicholson who has negative value. Nuggets want to make the playoffs, so don't see this deal at all.

Considering the market, maybe they could bring back chandler and Barton with the 2017 1st

[Bernie]

Hoping the team can snag Darren Collison. Should be much cheaper to get than Lou.

For good reason. Collision is, compared to Lou Williams, only half as good and has basically the same per 36 min stats as Burke. Lou on the other hand would be a huge upgrade over Burke.

[Meliorus]

I don't like how chummy PG and Wall were at the allstar game. I'm scared.

They were like that at the end of the Pacers game too. Paul George was palling around with Wall and Beal as his team lost. He wants to play with Wall.

How did we get Wall to sign a five year deal with no player option when Indy couldn't do the same with George? Indy was actually winning games at the time. The fact that we did gives us such a huge advantage for keeping Wall. If DeMarcus Cousins or Paul George want to use their free agency to team up with Wall, they have to come here.

Honestly, if we cleared the cap space for him, I think we have a really good opportunity to sign George in 2018.

You don't plan out cap space in advance. Good teams build the best team possible every single season. The hardest part of getting a star free agent is the commitment. Once they agree to sign, dumping salaries is easy. GS did this with Bogut.

[Error Afflalo]

Hoping the team can snag Darren Collison. Should be much cheaper to get than Lou.

For good reason. Collision is, compared to Lou Williams, only half as good and has basically the same per 36 min stats as Burke. Lou on the other hand would be a huge upgrade over Burke.

Collison wouldn't require a first round pick to get.

[dckingsfan]

Hoping the team can snag Darren Collison. Should be much cheaper to get than Lou.

For good reason. Collision is, compared to Lou Williams, only half as good and has basically the same per 36 min stats as Burke. Lou on the other hand would be a huge upgrade over Burke.

Collison wouldn't require a first round pick to get.

Agreed - Burke + Filler + 2nd or two 2nds

It seems like the Kings are dumping contracts for assets. A "stupid" fire sale if you will. I am really surprised that the Celtics didn't offer multiple picks for Cousins. I guess his value isn't high to GMs.

[dckingsfan]

Hoping the team can snag Darren Collison. Should be much cheaper to get than Lou.

For good reason. Collision is, compared to Lou Williams, only half as good and has basically the same per 36 min stats as Burke. Lou on the other hand would be a huge upgrade over Burke.

Both would be huge upgrades.

[AWIZZINGBULLET]

I want you guys feedback on this trade. I think it makes sense, is realistic, and would do for our bench what it needs to do.

First I think we need to stop acting as though Oubre's upside is greater than what Otto Porter brings to this team now. Porter is the league leading three-point shooter, is a good rebounder, good defender, has low turnover numbers, moves well without the ball. He does so much, the right way, it simply makes zero sense to move him from the Wizards' nucleus in favor of upside.

Oubre is a good defender but no one knows if his outside shot will ever develop, I'm not holding my breath in all honesty. Aside from that, can't create his own shot at this point, can't create a play for others, and simply doesn't look very natural on offense. Best way I describe Oubre on offense is a natural rightie trying to develop his left hand in-game. He just doesn't have that smooth game that left-handed players tend to have. We can't bank on him developing and let Porter go.

Now here's my trade. Nothing dynamic but I certainly think it would be beneficial. A move was made for Markieff Morris last season, let's go back to Phoenix one more time and grab T.J. Warren.

Kelly Oubre for T.J. Warren.

Straight up swap of young players still on their rookie contracts.

Oubre's sell at this point would be his athleticism, defense, and overall upside. Defense being something that the Suns need and have been about trying to improve.

Oubre would be that wing defender that the Suns could use, while Warren's smooth midrange shooting would provide the Wiz bench with scoring.


Next the Wizards could trade picks, perhaps this year's 2nd rd pick and next year's 2nd rd pick along with Trey Burke and Marcus Thornton to Sacramento for Darren Collison. Now we have a PG with scoring ability and dishing ability.

Wizards bench becomes:

Darren Collison
Tomas Satoransky (Sheldon McClellan)
T.J. Warren
Jason Smith
Ian Mahinmi

1 we have kelley locked in for two more years and Warren is a free agent after next year, # kelly is about as god as warren is now, better defender too. Does not make sense to do that trade and break up team chemistry for lateral swap. I like the collison idea but they will be looking to get more for him and he is probably worth it. but I would make that offer all day.

I think it makes even more sense now to trade for Collison knowing the organization is in full rebuild after the Cousins trade.

[payitforward]

I'd happily give up Gortat, Oubre & (2) 1st round picks for Cousins and drive 'em to the airport. This isn't about keeping chemistry to make an Eastern Conference Finals run. I want to make a legitimate run at winning a Championship. Wall, Beal, Porter & Cousins gives you that opportunity.

Well, it had better enable "a legitimate run" immediately. Because, at least at first glance, in some other ways it looks like it would leave us in a difficult position.

We'd have @ $80m in 4 players next year -- Beal, Porter (maxed), Wall & Cousins. Plus @ $23m in Morris, Smith, Satoransky & Nicholson. How much help that 2d group delivers is at least open to question. We'd have no one on a rookie contract & no picks for a couple of years.

In essence, for the delta you see between Gortat & Cousins, we'd have given up Oubre & 2 R1 picks, & we'd have taken on a potentially problematic salary situation.

Cousins is a tremendous talent -- no one would argue with that. If he put up numbers that reflected that talent I'd be in favor of this deal. As it is, I'd view it as a tremendous risk.

Well your view on Cousins' impact as a player in the past has differed greatly than mine. I see him as one of the best Cs in the game. You don't. So we're not likely to see eye to eye on this. However I believe you can have an elite championship quality team if you have 4-5 guys playing at a really high level and a non-descript bench. Some of those Kobe/Shaq teams were incredibly top heavy. I think a good comparison for us with Cousins would be Boston with the big 3 of KG, Pierce & Allen. The Lakers with Kobe & Gasol weren't very deep. Ditto for the Heat team with Wade & Shaq.

Note that i forgot Mahinmi! Make that $96m for 5 players, & just under $120m for 9.

We don't have to see eye to eye on Cousins. But of course I agree that he is enormously talented -- one of a handful of the most talented players in the league. I'd probably have drafted him over Wall in 2010.

But he doesn't play to the level of his talent. Or, to put it differently, he doesn't discipline his talent to get the most out of it.

Comparing him to Gortat, lets look at their effect on possessions -- i.e. offensive rebounds, steals & turnovers. Gortat is plus 3.1 vs. Cousins every 48 minutes of PT. Your team has fewer chances to score.

Of course, it's always possible to say, & in fact it's true, that some of that comes because Cousins has the ball in his hands so much; Gortat doesn't. Is he not going to have the ball in his hands if he plays here? If so, then it's even worse b/c the ball is in his hands instead of Wall, Beal or Porter -- our 3 most productive & efficient players. That doesn't make us better. If not, then you won't be seeing all those things you like about him on offense.

But... I've beat this horse to death a dozen times -- poor nag! I can make my point in a simpler way. A great player is one that makes a big difference in the win-loss record of his team. When LeBron left Cleveland, the team went from 61 wins to 19 wins. When he returned to Cleveland the team went from 33 wins to 53 wins. When he left Miami, the Heat went from 54 to 37 wins.

The Kings won 25 games in 2009-10. Cousins joined them, & they've won 24, 22, 28, 29, 29 & 34 in the years he's been there. Yes, their FO is a train wreck, but that's still enough data for me.

[CobraCommander]

This is the part where we get back to trades. So what you guys think about Oubre for Lou Williams?

The Lakers would laugh Oubre has shown pretty very little since being drafted

I was being sarcastic, the wizards would be the ones laughing at that nonsense.

Jeez, this thread is getting bad

I know....the Lakers would have to give us a pick at least AND Lou based on his age and the fact that he is all scoring. There is a reason why Lou is coming off the bench..again. Kelly's best years are ahead of him.

[dckingsfan]

@PIF - I think what is interesting is that if we didn't sign Mahimni and Nicholson, we almost certainly could have landed Cousins as Sacramento was trying to do a salary dump. Would you want him as a one year rental to see how he works out with Wall?

[payitforward]

We could have easily offered way better than that. This is the most lopsided trade I've ever seen.

Wow & they only got one first rounder out of it. I can't believe that was the best offer. Oubre, Gortat (flipped for expirings) & (2) 1sts easily beats that offer. Boston or Phoenix could have easily beat that offer.

Ooops, forgot to review the news before posting.

Dat -- obviously that was the best offer they got. Which means that no one wanted to give more. Which means that no one thought he was worth 2 R1 picks. Which means that we didn't think he was worth Oubre, Gortat & 2 firsts.

It's not often that I agree with Ernie Grunfeld. But it's a no-brainer to me that he was right in this case. In fact, I'd say the Pelicans probably over-paid.

Since NO gave up nothing of value this season to pick up Cousins, lets see what their record is to close out the season. That'll tell us a lot about how much Demarcus Cousins actually contributes to a team's ability to win games.

[CobraCommander]

Well, it had better enable "a legitimate run" immediately. Because, at least at first glance, in some other ways it looks like it would leave us in a difficult position.

We'd have @ $80m in 4 players next year -- Beal, Porter (maxed), Wall & Cousins. Plus @ $23m in Morris, Smith, Satoransky & Nicholson. How much help that 2d group delivers is at least open to question. We'd have no one on a rookie contract & no picks for a couple of years.

In essence, for the delta you see between Gortat & Cousins, we'd have given up Oubre & 2 R1 picks, & we'd have taken on a potentially problematic salary situation.

Cousins is a tremendous talent -- no one would argue with that. If he put up numbers that reflected that talent I'd be in favor of this deal. As it is, I'd view it as a tremendous risk.

Well your view on Cousins' impact as a player in the past has differed greatly than mine. I see him as one of the best Cs in the game. You don't. So we're not likely to see eye to eye on this. However I believe you can have an elite championship quality team if you have 4-5 guys playing at a really high level and a non-descript bench. Some of those Kobe/Shaq teams were incredibly top heavy. I think a good comparison for us with Cousins would be Boston with the big 3 of KG, Pierce & Allen. The Lakers with Kobe & Gasol weren't very deep. Ditto for the Heat team with Wade & Shaq.

Note that i forgot Mahinmi! Make that $96m for 5 players, & just under $120m for 9.

We don't have to see eye to eye on Cousins. But of course I agree that he is enormously talented -- one of a handful of the most talented players in the league. I'd probably have drafted him over Wall in 2010.

But he doesn't play to the level of his talent. Or, to put it differently, he doesn't discipline his talent to get the most out of it.

Comparing him to Gortat, lets look at their effect on possessions -- i.e. offensive rebounds, steals & turnovers. Gortat is plus 3.1 vs. Cousins every 48 minutes of PT. Your team has fewer chances to score.

Of course, it's always possible to say, & in fact it's true, that some of that comes because Cousins has the ball in his hands so much; Gortat doesn't. Is he not going to have the ball in his hands if he plays here? If so, then it's even worse b/c the ball is in his hands instead of Wall, Beal or Porter -- our 3 most productive & efficient players. That doesn't make us better. If not, then you won't be seeing all those things you like about him on offense.

But... I've beat this horse to death a dozen times -- poor nag! I can make my point in a simpler way. A great player is one that makes a big difference in the win-loss record of his team. When LeBron left Cleveland, the team went from 61 wins to 19 wins. When he returned to Cleveland the team went from 33 wins to 53 wins. When he left Miami, the Heat went from 54 to 37 wins.

The Kings won 25 games in 2009-10. Cousins joined them, & they've won 24, 22, 28, 29, 29 & 34 in the years he's been there. Yes, their FO is a train wreck, but that's still enough data for me.

They gave Cousins away for the same reasons you pointed out. 24-34 wins aint really moving the needle. While I agree Cousins aint the ONLY answer...if we could have got him we could compete for the ring THIS YEAR...if we could have kept the majority of our pieces and ALL of our starters. I dont see how NO is going to play with Twin Towers that get thier numbers on bad teams where they are the first and second option night in and night out. I assure you Cousins and Davis wont work out and Cousins will be available in the offseason because NO will know by then that Boogie aint gonna sign with them long term. The Kentucky connection is real so our upside is Boogie comes here...our risk is John goes to Boogie.

[CobraCommander]

@PIF - I think what is interesting is that if we didn't sign Mahimni and Nicholson, we almost certainly could have landed Cousins as Sacramento was trying to do a salary dump. Would you want him as a one year rental to see how he works out with Wall?

Yes and HELL Yes...and this year would be that year. If you look at our squad- why not max out wall, beal, porter and cousins...go all in. Would we be more expensive than Clevland right now and would we have a chance at a ring every year that team was together...yes. Lebron would be ASKING for Durant to come play with him instead of Melo if we had cousins

[nate33]

I would LOVE to grab Tyreke Evans off of waivers. Have him replace Burke in the rotation, he's at least as good as Burke at handling the ball, plus he's a much bigger and better defender. The 2nd unit could really put the defensive clamps down if they go with a Sato, Evans, Oubre, Morris, Mahinmi lineup. Switch everything and Mahinmi protects the rim. Offensively, Evans or Sato could run the pick and roll with Mahinmi, or just dump the ball into Morris for a mediocre one-on-one possession. It's good enough to tread water while the starters rest.

I'm not interested in Terrence Jones. It would be nice to get him just because having a competent 10th man is better than not having a competent 10th man, but it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We already have Morris and Smith at PF, plus Porter should get minutes there too. Jones will find another team where he is more needed.

[mhd]

I would LOVE to grab Tyreke Evans off of waivers. Have him replace Burke in the rotation, he's at least as good as Burke at handling the ball, plus he's a much bigger and better defender. The 2nd unit could really put the defensive clamps down if they go with a Sato, Evans, Oubre, Morris, Mahinmi lineup. Switch everything and Mahinmi protects the rim. Offensively, Evans or Sato could run the pick and roll with Mahinmi, or just dump the ball into Morris for a mediocre one-on-one possession. It's good enough to tread water while the starters rest.

I'm not interested in Terrence Jones. It would be nice to get him just because having a competent 10th man is better than not having a competent 10th man, but it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We already have Morris and Smith at PF, plus Porter should get minutes there too. Jones will find another team where he is more needed.

Hypothetically, I'd want Evans with Beal/Porter to give a kick out shooter on the floor. Brooks could stagger the minutes to make it happen.

[nate33]

They gave Cousins away for the same reasons you pointed out. 24-34 wins aint really moving the needle. While I agree Cousins aint the ONLY answer...if we could have got him we could compete for the ring THIS YEAR...if we could have kept the majority of our pieces and ALL of our starters. I dont see how NO is going to play with Twin Towers that get thier numbers on bad teams where they are the first and second option night in and night out. I assure you Cousins and Davis wont work out and Cousins will be available in the offseason because NO will know by then that Boogie aint gonna sign with them long term. The Kentucky connection is real so our upside is Boogie comes here...our risk is John goes to Boogie.

I agree. Boogie and Davis together, with crappy wings around them, is not a good situation. One of those bigs is going to end up standing around behind the three point line. And if the oft-injured Jrue Holiday gets hurt again, things could go south in a real hurry.

At the trade deadline next year, New Orleans might be real interested in Gortat + Oubre + 1st for Cousins. We may not even have to include Oubre since Cousins will be signaling that he'll be departing via free agency in the summer.

[nate33]

I would LOVE to grab Tyreke Evans off of waivers. Have him replace Burke in the rotation, he's at least as good as Burke at handling the ball, plus he's a much bigger and better defender. The 2nd unit could really put the defensive clamps down if they go with a Sato, Evans, Oubre, Morris, Mahinmi lineup. Switch everything and Mahinmi protects the rim. Offensively, Evans or Sato could run the pick and roll with Mahinmi, or just dump the ball into Morris for a mediocre one-on-one possession. It's good enough to tread water while the starters rest.

I'm not interested in Terrence Jones. It would be nice to get him just because having a competent 10th man is better than not having a competent 10th man, but it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We already have Morris and Smith at PF, plus Porter should get minutes there too. Jones will find another team where he is more needed.

Hypothetically, I'd want Evans with Beal/Porter to give a kick out shooter on the floor. Brooks could stagger the minutes to make it happen.

When the rotation shortens in the playoffs, I imagine Sato will get phased out and we will go with an 8-man rotation. Our subs will be Evans, Oubre and Mahinmi. But in the regular season, I'd prefer a 9-man rotation, which means that Evans probably won't get to share the floor with both Beal and Porter very often. It'll be just one of those guys plus maybe Oubre.

[Kanyewest]

The Kings won 25 games in 2009-10. Cousins joined them, & they've won 24, 22, 28, 29, 29 & 34 in the years he's been there. Yes, their FO is a train wreck, but that's still enough data for me.

The Kings have had terrible drafts though
2011- # 10 Jimmer Fredette (#11 was Klay, #15 Kawai), #60- Isiah Thomas (was a good pick but let him walk)
2012- #5 Thomas Robinson (#6 Lillard, #7 Barnes, #9 Drummond)
2013- #7 Ben McLemore (#10 CJ McCollum, #12 Steven Adams, #15 Giannis)
2014 - Traded as part of a package for Rudy Gay
2015- Willy Cauley Stein (Winslow, Booker, Turner, Oubre, etc)

[payitforward]

@PIF - I think what is interesting is that if we didn't sign Mahimni and Nicholson, we almost certainly could have landed Cousins as Sacramento was trying to do a salary dump. Would you want him as a one year rental to see how he works out with Wall?

The problem with Cousins is that he's like a banana split -- it's not good for you, but it tastes so good that you convince yourself it ought to be. Had he come here, he'd have been with us for 5 years.

Again... the talent is enormous, & I'm not even worried about his so-called personality problems. It's simple for me: the way Cousins plays doesn't win basketball games.

Above all, he doesn't play the same game he played at Kentucky. There he took 17.3 two point shots every 40 minutes & made 9.8 of them. IOW, he missed 7.5 two pt shots every 40 minutes. But... he also got 7.5 offensive rebounds every 40 minutes! Think about what that means.

For the Kings last year, Cousins took 20 two pt. shots every 40 minutes. He made 9.5 of them. IOW, he missed 10.5 two pt. shots every 40 minutes. Unfortunately, he only got 2.4 offensive boards every 40 minutes.

Those facts are related, btw. At Kentucky he played inside almost exclusively. I'd guess that a high number of those offensive boards at kentucky were off his own misses which he then put back in.

In the NBA, Cousins likes to have the ball in his hands in space, he likes to dribble & get off a jump shot. Result? a) that's a lower % shot, obviously, b) he's much less likely to get the ball back off a miss, & c) his turnovers are incredibly high for a Center -- more typical of a point guard.

For all these reasons, no, I wouldn't have wanted him. Above all, the proposed trade of Oubre, Gortat & two R1 picks would have made us a much worse team. & put us in a big financial fix as well.

[mhd]

The Kings won 25 games in 2009-10. Cousins joined them, & they've won 24, 22, 28, 29, 29 & 34 in the years he's been there. Yes, their FO is a train wreck, but that's still enough data for me.

The Kings have had terrible drafts though
2011- # 10 Jimmer Fredette (#11 was Klay, #15 Kawai), #60- Isiah Thomas (was a good pick but let him walk)
2012- #5 Thomas Robinson (#6 Lillard, #7 Barnes, #9 Drummond)
2013- #7 Ben McLemore (#10 CJ McCollum, #12 Steven Adams, #15 Giannis)
2014 - Traded as part of a package for Rudy Gay
2015- Willy Cauley Stein (Winslow, Booker, Turner, Oubre, etc)

Winslow has stunk. I don;t know if he the offensive game to be a player in the NBA. Turner & Booker are obviously studs. I wouldn't write off WCS yet. He's got the talent to be an elite defensive center. I thought it was a good pick. He's come on as of late.