2020 Draft

[Ruzious]

Thing is, ideally I want to play Okongwu with Bryant. And I think it should work, but you can't just go by what 90% of the NBA teams are doing - especially when you can follow what the best defensive team in the NBA does. I'd like to hear Doc's view on how best to use him.

[Dark Faze]

I'm starting to think the pick should be....Nesmith. The issue I have right now is trying to maximize our assets. If we think Thomas Bryant is a great option on a bargain contract, does it really behoove us to draft either a backup for him or his replacement? Particularly if an option like Noel is available to provide defensive flexibility at a low cost.

It would seem to me, if you think that Precious or Okongwu would be the better long term starter, we might be better off trading Bryant now in order to perhaps acquire another pick.

Example:

Bryant for #26 and #30.

Incoming off-season moves: Precious/Okongwu, Noel, Re-sign Bertans, picks 26 and 30: Two of Desmond Bane, Poku, or Tyler Bey, etc?

Alternatively, if you prefer to keep Bryant:

Incoming moves: Noel, Re-sign Bertans, draft Nesmith or Saddiq Bey?

I prefer option 2, with Nesmith for a number of reasons.

1: I think we'll get higher quality value out of a big from free agency than a wing. What would the Noel equivalent at wing be from a skill and cost standpoint? Jones Jr and Grant come to mind, but perhaps hard to acquire. Miss on Noel and maybe its Biyombo, Plumlee, or Tristan, which I think would be better than the B tier wing free agent options.
2: There seem to be more intriguing big men that are early second round rated than smalls, particularly if we can move up a bit, maybe in a pick swap + cash scenario. Isaiah Stewart, Jalen Smith, Otoru, Reed.

Wall / Smith
Beal / Matthews
Nesmith / Brown
Rui / Bertans
Bryant / Noel /(Otoru, Reed, Stewart, Poku ?)

I like Nesmith's potential star potential, length to guard the 3, ability to start and fit well with our starters and drive on a close out, ability to play the 1/2/3, can easily slide into the two if we move Beal/Wall. Elite athlete, elite shooter, ability to contribute right away.

[nate33]

I'm starting to think the pick should be....Nesmith. The issue I have right now is trying to maximize our assets. If we think Thomas Bryant is a great option on a bargain contract, does it really behoove us to draft either a backup for him or his replacement? Particularly if an option like Noel is available to provide defensive flexibility at a low cost.

It would seem to me, if you think that Precious or Okongwu would be the better long term starter, we might be better off trading Bryant now in order to perhaps acquire another pick.

Example:

Bryant for #26 and #30.

Incoming off-season moves: Precious/Okongwu, Noel, Re-sign Bertans, picks 26 and 30: Two of Desmond Bane, Poku, or Tyler Bey, etc?

Alternatively, if you prefer to keep Bryant:

Incoming moves: Noel, Re-sign Bertans, draft Nesmith or Saddiq Bey?

I prefer option 2, with Nesmith for a number of reasons.

1: I think we'll get higher quality value out of a big from free agency than a wing. What would the Noel equivalent at wing be from a skill and cost standpoint? Jones Jr and Grant come to mind, but perhaps hard to acquire. Miss on Noel and maybe its Biyombo, Plumlee, or Tristan, which I think would be better than the B tier wing free agent options.
2: There seem to be more intriguing big men that are early second round rated than smalls, particularly if we can move up a bit, maybe in a pick swap + cash scenario. Isaiah Stewart, Jalen Smith, Otoru, Reed.

Wall / Smith
Beal / Matthews
Nesmith / Brown
Rui / Bertans
Bryant / Noel /(Otoru, Reed, Stewart, Poku ?)

I like Nesmith's potential star potential, length to guard the 3, ability to start and fit well with our starters and drive on a close out, ability to play the 1/2/3, can easily slide into the two if we move Beal/Wall. Elite athlete, elite shooter, ability to contribute right away.

The way I see it, neither Bryant nor Noel are legit, playoff-caliber starting centers. They're not awful and they can certainly man the position during the regular season, but they are liabilities in the playoffs. The team won't be winning any titles or advancing to the ECF's with those guys at center.

With that in mind, I've got no problems drafting a center like Okongwu if he is available. In the short term, he and Bryant can co-exist because Okongwu is likely to have the usual growing pains as a rookie and will only be backup caliber. If Okongwu progresses, then Bryant can be moved to a 20 mpg backup. Also, they can share the court for 6-8 minutes a night because Okongwu has the agility to guard 4's and Bryant can stretch the floor from the 5.

If I felt that Nesmith was a superstar caliber prospect, I might side with your argument. But I don't. I think, in a vacuum, Okongwu is a better prospect that Nesmith. And our existing players at both SF and C aren't good enough to be the deciding factor on whom we should draft. Just take the best player available.

[WizarDynasty]

I definitely would not rule out anthony cole at pick 9. You don't pass up on the next steph curry. Nba point guard children who have been practicing shooting from an nba father all of their life can be a lethal weapon in the nba. I am definitely tired of seeing heavy minutes give to ish smith, isaiah thomas. We need a back point guard that can space the floor. Wall is a big point guard that can guard shooting guards and Beal is pretty strong to guard small forward. Having that 3 dynamic would be really nice and hard to stop. Save alot of wear and tear on wall achilles.
Cole Anthony skills are elite, he's been trained by Greg Anthony to think correctly all of his life. Yes he had meniscus tear but the guy is young. If we find that Achiuwa doesn't fit us psychologically--- you don't pass up the next scotty pippen/rodman player. Then Cole Anthony is the next best. Even over Okongwu. Okongwu is undersized and can't shoot. He may develop it, but he has very slow release and very uncoordinated elbow. Wiseman and even Achiuwa have far more coordinated shooting elbows. --shoots with a fluid high elbow. Okongwu is stiff and very low. Okongwu does have more bulk to guard centers, but a team that is going into post isn't nearly as efficient as high field goal shooting percentage team. So in a shootout outside beats inside. We got bulk with thomas if a team is trying to bang alot. But Hachi and Achiuwa running has to be a nightmare for most teams and considering rebounding out your area is huge weakness on this team...it's simple to choose. AGain, if Achiuwa is not there, then cole anthony--- is going to have similiar path as steph curry.
Nba kids trained all their life at guard position normally dominate. Takes a long time to develop elite three point shooting and explosive first step.
So those are the two players to target at 9. NOw Anthony surgery to repair meniscus in his knee means that he will need load managmenet but considering that John Wall's injury are from carrying such a huge workload, it clear that Cole is perfect for Wall. If cole plays with Wall, wall can guard shooting guards. If Cole plays with Beal, he can be much more dangerous three point threat than wall and you put all three on the floor against small ball lineups where a shooting guard is playing small foward which is most of the time.

[nate33]

I definitely would not rule out anthony cole at pick 9. You don't pass up on the next steph curry. Nba point guard children who have been practicing shooting from an nba father all of their life can be a lethal weapon in the nba. I am definitely tired of seeing heavy minutes give to ish smith, isaiah thomas. We need a back point guard that can space the floor. Wall is a big point guard that can guard shooting guards and Beal is pretty strong to guard small forward. Having that 3 dynamic would be really nice and hard to stop. Save alot of wear and tear on wall achilles.
Cole Anthony skills are elite, he's been trained by Greg Anthony to think correctly all of his life. Yes he had meniscus tear but the guy is young. If we find that Achiuwa doesn't fit us psychologically--- you don't pass up the next scotty pippen/rodman player. Then Cole Anthony is the next best. Even over Okongwu. Okongwu is undersized and can't shoot. He may develop it, but he has very slow release and very uncoordinated elbow. Wiseman and even Achiuwa have far more coordinated shooting elbows. --shoots with a fluid high elbow. Okongwu is stiff and very low. Okongwu does have more bulk to guard centers, but a team that is going into post isn't nearly as efficient as high field goal shooting percentage team. So in a shootout outside beats inside. We got bulk with thomas if a team is trying to bang alot. But Hachi and Achiuwa running has to be a nightmare for most teams and considering rebounding out your area is huge weakness on this team...it's simple to choose. AGain, if Achiuwa is not there, then cole anthony--- is going to have similiar path as steph curry.
Nba kids trained all their life at guard position normally dominate. Takes a long time to develop elite three point shooting and explosive first step.
So those are the two players to target at 9. NOw Anthony surgery to repair meniscus in his knee means that he will need load managmenet but considering that John Wall's injury are from carrying such a huge workload, it clear that Cole is perfect for Wall. If cole plays with Wall, wall can guard shooting guards. If Cole plays with Beal, he can be much more dangerous three point threat than wall and you put all three on the floor against small ball lineups where a shooting guard is playing small foward which is most of the time.

Cole Anthony is highly turnover prone (3.6 turnovers per 36 and an A/TO ratio of just 1.1, which is beyond horrific for a PG). He is also a terrible finisher, shooting just 40% on 2PA's and having a TS% of just .501 overall. His 3-point shot is decent (.348 on fairly high volume) but comparing him to Steph Curry is just ridiculous.

Most mocks I've seen have him going in the late teens or early 20's. Drafting him at #9 would be a horrible mistake.

[Ruzious]

I'm starting to think the pick should be....Nesmith. The issue I have right now is trying to maximize our assets. If we think Thomas Bryant is a great option on a bargain contract, does it really behoove us to draft either a backup for him or his replacement? Particularly if an option like Noel is available to provide defensive flexibility at a low cost.

It would seem to me, if you think that Precious or Okongwu would be the better long term starter, we might be better off trading Bryant now in order to perhaps acquire another pick.

Example:

Bryant for #26 and #30.

Incoming off-season moves: Precious/Okongwu, Noel, Re-sign Bertans, picks 26 and 30: Two of Desmond Bane, Poku, or Tyler Bey, etc?

Alternatively, if you prefer to keep Bryant:

Incoming moves: Noel, Re-sign Bertans, draft Nesmith or Saddiq Bey?

I prefer option 2, with Nesmith for a number of reasons.

1: I think we'll get higher quality value out of a big from free agency than a wing. What would the Noel equivalent at wing be from a skill and cost standpoint? Jones Jr and Grant come to mind, but perhaps hard to acquire. Miss on Noel and maybe its Biyombo, Plumlee, or Tristan, which I think would be better than the B tier wing free agent options.
2: There seem to be more intriguing big men that are early second round rated than smalls, particularly if we can move up a bit, maybe in a pick swap + cash scenario. Isaiah Stewart, Jalen Smith, Otoru, Reed.

Wall / Smith
Beal / Matthews
Nesmith / Brown
Rui / Bertans
Bryant / Noel /(Otoru, Reed, Stewart, Poku ?)

I like Nesmith's potential star potential, length to guard the 3, ability to start and fit well with our starters and drive on a close out, ability to play the 1/2/3, can easily slide into the two if we move Beal/Wall. Elite athlete, elite shooter, ability to contribute right away.

Good stuff. If Okongwu isn't there at 9, I'd have no problem with a trade down for Nesmith. And then trying to get Noel in free agency. That'd be a fun team to watch.

[Dat2U]

My gut tells while Okongwu was the better college player, Achiuwa may be better in the NBA as a rebounder/defender and even as a face up option on the offensive end. I would lean taking Achiuwa over Okongwu at this point.

Interesting. You think this even after factoring their age difference? (Achiuwa is 1.2 years older.)

I can buy the argument that Achiuwa might end up as the slightly better defender/rebounder in the long run because of his superior athleticism and his demonstrated ability to rebound outside his immediate area. But I can't overlook that Okongwu is nearly as agile and quick on his feet despite carrying 20 extra pounds on his frame. I know Okongwu has the girth to hold his position against full-sized NBA centers, I'm not as sure Achiuwa can. So defensively, I think it might be a wash.

What separates them IMO is offense. Achiuwa can't shoot and is turnover prone. Those are pretty big red flags. It may well be the case that he never develops enough offensive game to be any kind of threat in the NBA. A good coach can hide a guy like that in the regular season and just put him in the dunker's spot; but in the playoffs, he can be exploited. Teams may give him the Montrez Harrell treatment and guard him with a big center whom they could just leave in the paint to clog up the lane.

Okongwu is far more likely to be at least a secondary offensive threat - good enough that teams can't cheat off of him. At the very least, Okongwu is much more NBA ready and is likely to contribute right away. Achiuwa is probably at least two full seasons of development away from being a guy who doesn't actively hurt the offense. That might not matter to a rebuilding team, but to a "reloading" team like us, that's a factor.

I'm wavering. But what evidence do we have that Okongwu is a shooter teams can't cheat off? He took like 16 jumpers total. Shooting in an empty gym doesn't tell me alot either.

Okongwu is more polished in the low post, but how much impact will that have being a 6-9 C?

Achiuwa's TOs came from trying to do too much on the perimeter with the ball in his hands. This isn't a case where a low big has bad hands and fumbles passes away.

In Okongwu's defense, I'd say his instincts and his hands are his two best attributes. I see some young Ibaka - not quite the athlete - in terms of timing of when to block a shot. He's also got really quick hands which might get him in trouble early on because he likes to reach but I can see why he gets alot of steals.

Okongwu would likely have the highest floor of anyone we could draft. Can likely take Wagner's place in the rotation the moment he's drafted and be an upgrade.

[Dat2U]

I'm starting to think the pick should be....Nesmith. The issue I have right now is trying to maximize our assets. If we think Thomas Bryant is a great option on a bargain contract, does it really behoove us to draft either a backup for him or his replacement? Particularly if an option like Noel is available to provide defensive flexibility at a low cost.

It would seem to me, if you think that Precious or Okongwu would be the better long term starter, we might be better off trading Bryant now in order to perhaps acquire another pick.

Example:

Bryant for #26 and #30.

Incoming off-season moves: Precious/Okongwu, Noel, Re-sign Bertans, picks 26 and 30: Two of Desmond Bane, Poku, or Tyler Bey, etc?

Alternatively, if you prefer to keep Bryant:

Incoming moves: Noel, Re-sign Bertans, draft Nesmith or Saddiq Bey?

I prefer option 2, with Nesmith for a number of reasons.

1: I think we'll get higher quality value out of a big from free agency than a wing. What would the Noel equivalent at wing be from a skill and cost standpoint? Jones Jr and Grant come to mind, but perhaps hard to acquire. Miss on Noel and maybe its Biyombo, Plumlee, or Tristan, which I think would be better than the B tier wing free agent options.
2: There seem to be more intriguing big men that are early second round rated than smalls, particularly if we can move up a bit, maybe in a pick swap + cash scenario. Isaiah Stewart, Jalen Smith, Otoru, Reed.

Wall / Smith
Beal / Matthews
Nesmith / Brown
Rui / Bertans
Bryant / Noel /(Otoru, Reed, Stewart, Poku ?)

I like Nesmith's potential star potential, length to guard the 3, ability to start and fit well with our starters and drive on a close out, ability to play the 1/2/3, can easily slide into the two if we move Beal/Wall. Elite athlete, elite shooter, ability to contribute right away.

Welcome aboard!



I would be pleased if they went this route. You can never have enough shooting, especially from guys 6-6 & above --- and I've said the C market is overloaded with vets, stopgap and young guys still trying to find their niche.

[Ruzious]

I'm wavering. But what evidence do we have that Okongwu is a shooter teams can't cheat off? He took like 16 jumpers total. Shooting in an empty gym doesn't tell me alot either.

It's a good sign that Okongwu made 72% of his FT's (as opposed to Precious' 59.9).

[Dat2U]

I definitely would not rule out anthony cole at pick 9. You don't pass up on the next steph curry. Nba point guard children who have been practicing shooting from an nba father all of their life can be a lethal weapon in the nba. I am definitely tired of seeing heavy minutes give to ish smith, isaiah thomas. We need a back point guard that can space the floor. Wall is a big point guard that can guard shooting guards and Beal is pretty strong to guard small forward. Having that 3 dynamic would be really nice and hard to stop. Save alot of wear and tear on wall achilles.
Cole Anthony skills are elite, he's been trained by Greg Anthony to think correctly all of his life. Yes he had meniscus tear but the guy is young. If we find that Achiuwa doesn't fit us psychologically--- you don't pass up the next scotty pippen/rodman player. Then Cole Anthony is the next best. Even over Okongwu. Okongwu is undersized and can't shoot. He may develop it, but he has very slow release and very uncoordinated elbow. Wiseman and even Achiuwa have far more coordinated shooting elbows. --shoots with a fluid high elbow. Okongwu is stiff and very low. Okongwu does have more bulk to guard centers, but a team that is going into post isn't nearly as efficient as high field goal shooting percentage team. So in a shootout outside beats inside. We got bulk with thomas if a team is trying to bang alot. But Hachi and Achiuwa running has to be a nightmare for most teams and considering rebounding out your area is huge weakness on this team...it's simple to choose. AGain, if Achiuwa is not there, then cole anthony--- is going to have similiar path as steph curry.
Nba kids trained all their life at guard position normally dominate. Takes a long time to develop elite three point shooting and explosive first step.
So those are the two players to target at 9. NOw Anthony surgery to repair meniscus in his knee means that he will need load managmenet but considering that John Wall's injury are from carrying such a huge workload, it clear that Cole is perfect for Wall. If cole plays with Wall, wall can guard shooting guards. If Cole plays with Beal, he can be much more dangerous three point threat than wall and you put all three on the floor against small ball lineups where a shooting guard is playing small foward which is most of the time.

Cole Anthony is highly turnover prone (3.6 turnovers per 36 and an A/TO ratio of just 1.1, which is beyond horrific for a PG). He is also a terrible finisher, shooting just 40% on 2PA's and having a TS% of just .501 overall. His 3-point shot is decent (.348 on fairly high volume) but comparing him to Steph Curry is just ridiculous.

Most mocks I've seen have him going in the late teens or early 20's. Drafting him at #9 would be a horrible mistake.

He doesnt see the floor well... at all. I struggle to call him a PG prospect. Reminds me of Austin Rivers... with little more suddenness to his game.

[Dat2U]

I'm wavering. But what evidence do we have that Okongwu is a shooter teams can't cheat off? He took like 16 jumpers total. Shooting in an empty gym doesn't tell me alot either.

It's a good sign that Okongwu made 72% of his FT's (as opposed to Precious' 59.9).

So there's hope. But there's also hope for Precious who took 40 3s at a 32% clip and had to take on a higher usage role without Wiseman than his skill level merited.

[Ruzious]

Re Nesmith - gotta have some concern about that fractured foot and if it takes away any explosion from his game - he wasn't a particularly explosive player to begin with, but it makes a difference. You really need a medical exam before picking him, and that kind of thing will turn teams off - when push comes to shove - which is why I don't see him going till shortly after the lottery. A trade down for him is perfectly fine (assuming the doctors are happy), but no way I pick him at 9. Remember, Brogdon slipped to the 2nd round (would have been late 20''s) because of questions about his foot, and he didn't have an injury situation like Nesmith's.

[Ruzious]

I'm wavering. But what evidence do we have that Okongwu is a shooter teams can't cheat off? He took like 16 jumpers total. Shooting in an empty gym doesn't tell me alot either.

It's a good sign that Okongwu made 72% of his FT's (as opposed to Precious' 59.9).

So there's hope. But there's also hope for Precious who took 40 3s at a 32% clip and had to take on a higher usage role without Wiseman than his skill level merited.

It's also noteworthy that Precious made only 51% of his 2's, while Okongwu made 62%.

[payitforward]

If the Wiz do go for it all, Bogdan Bogdanovic is a player I'd target - maybe midseason - trading Bertans for him - maybe in a 3-way trade where a younger player(s) goes to Sacramento. He'd give us that 3rd highly skilled perimeter player. And I think he's much longer than people realize - with a 6'11 wingspan and 8'8 standing reach - able to play the 3 or the 2. Our roster:

1. Wall, Ish or Napier, Flynn (37th pick)
2. Beal, Robinson, Mathews
3. Bogdan, TBJ, Admiral
4. Rui, Okongwu, Bonga
5. Bryant, Wagner

Of course, getting Okongwu will take lots o luck. But it shows you, getting him opens up the possibility that the Wiz can be very good in 20/21.

This puzzles me, Ruz.

I don't share the enthusiasm for Bogdanovic, & if we wind up drafting Okongwu I'd bet on him starting over Rui -- not to mention that you managed to leave Bertans off the roster. I also think that both Brown & Bonga played better than your lineups seem to credit them with.

You must have been tired - see how I acquired Bogdanovic. That's why Bertans isn't on my roster. I'd start Okongwu too, but I doubt the Wiz start him over Rui at least to start the season. There's likely going to be an adjustment period teaming Okongwu with Bryant. You're reading too much into where I put Brown and Bonga. They'll play multiple positions and get playing time - I'm just not listing anyone twice. Bogdan is much better than TBJ right now. I know you don't believe that, but he's been in an awful situation with Sacramento, and he's a superbly skilled polished player.

Ooops! duh on Bertans.

Bogdanovic is good -- would he better here? I worry about projections of that kind.... Anyway, the circumstances to know the answer seem unlikely to arrive....

[Dat2U]

It's a good sign that Okongwu made 72% of his FT's (as opposed to Precious' 59.9).

So there's hope. But there's also hope for Precious who took 40 3s at a 32% clip and had to take on a higher usage role without Wiseman than his skill level merited.

It's also noteworthy that Precious made only 51% of his 2's, while Okongwu made 62%.

Yes, in a higher usage role, testing the very limits of his skill. Might not help in the stats/win column but there's benefit to player experiencing this over the long term.

[payitforward]

...My gut tells while Okongwu was the better college player, Achiuwa may be better in the NBA as a rebounder/defender and even as a face up option on the offensive end. I would lean taking Achiuwa over Okongwu at this point.

My only question about Achiuwa over Okongwu is to feel still that trading down a few spots & getting say Tillman in addition to whomever we pick first seems likely to yield better results.

I like Tillman but I view Achiuwa as a better prospect - on a different tier. ...

Of course! I must have written in an unclear way -- I'm suggesting Tillman as the potential extra value we get for trading down a few spots. We might still get Achiuwa, or we would get one of either Hampton or Nesmith -- plus Tillman. Not comparing the two guys at all.

I'm also not interested in adding a bench full of rookies to a team looking to make a playoff run....

More than half the NBA makes the playoffs. We are a rebuilding team -- only 2 players from 2 years ago. I hope we are aiming at something outstanding.

I'm not a fan either of using a 1st rounder to trade down for extra 2nd rounders when you can potentially buy them instead ..

Of course not -- I'm talking about getting the same player, or maybe another same-tier player -- plus one extra pick in Round 1, not R2.

I...realistically we can probably add 3/4 max rookies with one of them probably being a 2-way player.

Yes, let's buy another R2 pick; we can accommodate 4 rookies (esp. if 1 is a 2-way player) -- we have 9 guys under contract!

[nate33]

I'm wavering. But what evidence do we have that Okongwu is a shooter teams can't cheat off? He took like 16 jumpers total. Shooting in an empty gym doesn't tell me alot either.

Fair point. The fact is, the sample sizes on both guys are very small, particularly for perimeter shots. Perhaps I shouldn't put too much stock in Okongwu's better FG% numbers.

[doclinkin]

I agree that Achiuwa has better physical tools than Okongwu. Achiuwa's athleticism allowed him to play much bigger than his body in college. Long arms, great second bounce, excellent activity level. I agree with nate (and myself ) that early reps playing soccer give you a better understanding of angles on defense, the team game, lateral speed, and better balance/footwork in recovery. I think he has a frame that will allow him to add significant strength. He is a raw player and will have to adjust but he has room to adjust since his physical tools give him a higher upside than most people. It's not like his arms are going to get shorter.

Plus, you know. Kneebend.

That said, I am still in camp Okongwu. Defensive players struggle adjusting to the league. It is the hardest aspect of the game to learn. Defense and consistency are the two things that separate a veteran from a young player. (Positive consistency, it is easy to consistently suck). To become consistent you need reps. To get reps you need a coach who will play you minutes. To earn minutes commonly you have to be able to either score, or both rebound and pass. And take instruction.

Where I give the edge on Okongwu is in his mental tools. He is a precocious defender who has played with two top ten ball NBA draft picks (Lonzo, LaMelo) while learning the skill. He knows his role at an NBA level. Many players coming into the league have to adjust from being stars to being a role player. Okongwu understands his job is as a star role player. He is coming in to the Dennis Rodman role, not trying to be Scottie Pippen. He has known since he was a freshman in highschool his job is to keep the star players happy by doing the dirty work. He picked up the habits of winning.

He also picked up really really crappy form on his jumpshot from playing with those cats (and some odd kinda leg kick on his non jumping leg, so I'm surprised he even hits the shots he tries) and maybe when he has a better trainer (one who actually corrects him when he steps out of bounds on a 3pt shot, as he did three times in a workout video) then perhaps his offensive consistency improves.

Nevertheless as a defensive player he won't have as steep of a learning curve when he comes into the league. He will get minutes. He will make his star players happy. And defensively he has a mindset that suggests he could become a rearline captain. Taking responsibility for other peoples mistakes and covering for them, and maybe eventually getting on them to not make those mistakes, calling out switches, warning them on screens, directing the action of guys who have their backs to him. In college he is precocious in his defense, anticipation, activity. Mental talent is a significant factor in long term success in the NBA. These are the players who succeed, what makes an allstar DPOY out of a Draymond Green. If not for the mental factor JaVale would have 3 championship rings. (Oh wait...)

Agreed that he is right now a small ball center, but that role has synergy with our ranged Bigs, both Bertans and Bryant --when Bryant is shooting well. (Or even the first half version of Mo Wagner). He shores up Rui's deficiency when the team goes small. Okongwu is already playable. You can draw line-ups where he shares the floor with most of our roster. Not that our current roster is Finals quality, but you can take any contender and plug him in to a role, see where he fits. Here he fits especially well.

Achiuwa by contrast is (at age 21) still learning what he can and cannot do as a ballplayer. The positive is that he _is_ learning, and learning fast. The fact that he took over for Wiseman and played as well as he did is remarkable. Still at the NBA level his still doesn't have a role beyond 'get out there and hustle, see what you can do'. A lot. He can do a lot. But getting reps next to Rui may prove challenging when both are still puzzling it out night to night. They may be borrowing minutes from each other for a while.

[Frichuela]

I agree that Achiuwa has better physical tools than Okongwu. Achiuwa's athleticism allowed him to play much bigger than his body in college. Long arms, great second bounce, excellent activity level. I agree with nate (and myself ) that early reps playing soccer give you a better understanding of angles on defense, the team game, lateral speed, and better balance/footwork in recovery. I think he has a frame that will allow him to add significant strength. He is a raw player and will have to adjust but he has room to adjust since his physical tools give him a higher upside than most people. It's not like his arms are going to get shorter.

Plus, you know. Kneebend.

That said, I am still in camp Okongwu. Defensive players struggle adjusting to the league. It is the hardest aspect of the game to learn. Defense and consistency are the two things that separate a veteran from a young player. (Positive consistency, it is easy to consistently suck). To become consistent you need reps. To get reps you need a coach who will play you minutes. To earn minutes commonly you have to be able to either score, or both rebound and pass. And take instruction.

Where I give the edge on Okongwu is in his mental tools. He is a precocious defender who has played with two top ten ball NBA draft picks (Lonzo, LaMelo) while learning the skill. He knows his role at an NBA level. Many players coming into the league have to adjust from being stars to being a role player. Okongwu understands his job is as a star role player. He is coming in to the Dennis Rodman role, not trying to be Scottie Pippen. He has known since he was a freshman in highschool his job is to keep the star players happy by doing the dirty work. He picked up the habits of winning.

He also picked up really really crappy form on his jumpshot from playing with those cats (and some odd kinda leg kick on his non jumping leg, so I'm surprised he even hits the shots he tries) and maybe when he has a better trainer (one who actually corrects him when he steps out of bounds on a 3pt shot, as he did three times in a workout video) then perhaps his offensive consistency improves.

Nevertheless as a defensive player he won't have as steep of a learning curve when he comes into the league. He will get minutes. He will make his star players happy. And defensively he has a mindset that suggests he could become a rearline captain. Taking responsibility for other peoples mistakes and covering for them, and maybe eventually getting on them to not make those mistakes, calling out switches, warning them on screens, directing the action of guys who have their backs to him. In college he is precocious in his defense, anticipation, activity. Mental talent is a significant factor in lone term success inn the NBA. These are the players who succeed, what makes an allstar DPOY out of a Draymond Green. If not for the mental factor JaVale would have 3 championship rings. (Oh wait...)

Agreed that he is right now a small ball center, but that role has synergy with our ranged Bigs, both Bertans and Bryant --when Bryant is shooting well. (Or even the first half version of Mo Wagner). He shores up Rui's deficiency when the team goes small. Okongwu is already playable. You can draw line-ups where he shares the floor with most of our roster. Not that our current roster is Finals quality, but you can take any contender and plug him in to a role, see where he fits. Here he fits especially well.

Achiuwa by contrast is (at age 21) still learning what he can and cannot do as a ballplayer. The positive is that he _is_ learning, and learning fast. The fact that he took over for Wiseman and played as well as he did is remarkable. Still at the NBA level his still doesn't have a role beyond 'get out there and hustle, see what you can do'. A lot. He can do a lot. But getting reps next to Rui may prove challenging when both are still puzzling it out night to night. They may be borrowing minutes from each other for a while.

Very much in a agreement on Big O vs Achiuwa.

If Big O is not there when we pick #9, I’m on the camp of trying to trade down with either:

1) Sacramento, and maybe do #9 for #12 and Holmes (who has 1 year left at $5mn).
2) Boston, and try #9 for #14 + #26

In either case, there are reasonable odds either Nesmith and/or Saddiq Bey will be there at #12 or #14. And if it’s Boston, we could pick a big at #26 (Tillman would be awesome).

[payitforward]

One thing this discussion points up to me is how difficult it is -- to the point of being impossible & therefore a waste of time -- to work out in advance who is going to somehow be the perfect player/fit for one's team going forward. Who's going to get along with whom... who's going to fit one or another role more exactly....

It's hard enough trying to work out who is actually the best player available when your turn comes. Looking back at a dozen drafts, you can see that this is next to impossible all on its own. Thomas Robinson went #5, Draymond went #35 -- in the same draft.

I wonder what it would take for people to understand & accept this fact -- because "fact" is what it most certainly is. If you have an opportunity to move back a few spots & thereby pick up an extra R1 pick (or 2 -- or 1 plus something else), you do it. You do it every time -- or at least 99 times out of 100.

It's a 100% certainty that teams will take Derrick Williams, Enes Kanter, Jan Vesely, & Bismack Biyombo & Brandon Knight before they take Kemba Walker. Because that's what happened.

& they'll take all those guys plus Jimmer Fredette before they take Klay Thompson. & all those guys plus Alec Burks & the Morris twins before Kawhi Leonard.

& they'll take all of them plus about a dozen other non-entities before one of them thinks to take Jimmy Butler.

Some years, some teams perform better in the draft than in other years -- but in no years at all, zero years, do teams get it right -- or even remotely close to right! A guy taken in the mid-50s of a draft can turn out to be better than the guy who went #1 (see 2017).

This is not rare or unusual. This is the norm. For that reason, if you have two shots pretty much anywhere in R1 you are way better off than having 1 shot in the last 2/3 of the lottery.