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Political Roundtable Part XXX

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1681 » by Zonkerbl » Sat May 7, 2022 12:31 am

dobrojim wrote:One very interesting thing about modern warfare is how much cheaper it often is
to counter some profoundly expensive weapons system. This is one of the lessons
learned so tragically the hard way in Iraq with the development of IEDs. The systems
that caused the loss of the Moskva were so much cheaper than the ship they destroyed.
What's the take home message of that?


I've read that the Russians sailed the ship way closer to the shore than they should have and made other mistakes that made it an easy target.

You know it's weird. Before WWII the Red Army's upper officer ranks were *decimated* by the purges. They had absolutely no good officers to lead the defense against the Nazis. It was only after they miraculously survived the first year that they were able to promote some soldiers who showed talent in the field and train them up. I wonder if something similar happened to Putin - he's surrounded himself with right wing ideologue idiots who are only smart enough to kiss his butt. Like Trump did. Thank goodness the country never faced a crisis while he was... oh wait
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1682 » by Zonkerbl » Sat May 7, 2022 12:33 am

The American Civil War killed the most U.S. soldiers, 600,000.

COVID has killed more than a million.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1683 » by dobrojim » Sat May 7, 2022 1:06 am

Zonkerbl wrote:
dobrojim wrote:One very interesting thing about modern warfare is how much cheaper it often is
to counter some profoundly expensive weapons system. This is one of the lessons
learned so tragically the hard way in Iraq with the development of IEDs. The systems
that caused the loss of the Moskva were so much cheaper than the ship they destroyed.
What's the take home message of that?


I've read that the Russians sailed the ship way closer to the shore than they should have and made other mistakes that made it an easy target.

You know it's weird. Before WWII the Red Army's upper officer ranks were *decimated* by the purges. They had absolutely no good officers to lead the defense against the Nazis. It was only after they miraculously survived the first year that they were able to promote some soldiers who showed talent in the field and train them up. I wonder if something similar happened to Putin - he's surrounded himself with right wing ideologue idiots who are only smart enough to kiss his butt. Like Trump did. Thank goodness the country never faced a crisis while he was... oh wait


Human error certainly contributed but more costly weapon systems being defeated by cheaper systems
is happening in many situations. An anti-tank missile is much cheaper than a tank.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1684 » by closg00 » Sat May 7, 2022 1:50 pm

Pointgod wrote:It’s worth remembering that any law needs 60 votes to pass the Senate because of the filibuster.

It takes 50 votes to eliminate the filibuster.

Right now the Democrats only have 48 votes to eliminate the filibuster, realistically probably less.

That means the need at least 2 more Senate seats, probably 3 or 4 just to be safe. This is why you shouldn’t pay attention to people on Twitter yelling that Democrats don’t do anything.

There are 5 races that are considered a toss up, 3 of them Democrats currently hold the seat. There are 3 seats that lean Republican, Florida, Ohio and North Carolina. If the Democrats win all the toss ups, hopefully you have the votes to eliminate the filibuster. Both Ohio and North Carolina, there is no incumbent so there’s a better chance of an upset. There are multiple paths to increasing the seats in the Senate and eliminating the filibuster.

Simply put everyone’s energy should be on expanding the seats in the Senate, House, and local races. More people on Twitter and social media need to be amplifying this message instead of yelling into the void.


You can bet your life savings that Republicans will attempt to eliminate the filibuster if a future Republican President's legislation was being stopped in the way they have been doing it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1685 » by Pointgod » Sat May 7, 2022 2:43 pm

closg00 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:It’s worth remembering that any law needs 60 votes to pass the Senate because of the filibuster.

It takes 50 votes to eliminate the filibuster.

Right now the Democrats only have 48 votes to eliminate the filibuster, realistically probably less.

That means the need at least 2 more Senate seats, probably 3 or 4 just to be safe. This is why you shouldn’t pay attention to people on Twitter yelling that Democrats don’t do anything.

There are 5 races that are considered a toss up, 3 of them Democrats currently hold the seat. There are 3 seats that lean Republican, Florida, Ohio and North Carolina. If the Democrats win all the toss ups, hopefully you have the votes to eliminate the filibuster. Both Ohio and North Carolina, there is no incumbent so there’s a better chance of an upset. There are multiple paths to increasing the seats in the Senate and eliminating the filibuster.

Simply put everyone’s energy should be on expanding the seats in the Senate, House, and local races. More people on Twitter and social media need to be amplifying this message instead of yelling into the void.


You can bet your life savings that Republicans will attempt to eliminate the filibuster if a future Republican President's legislation was being stopped in the way they have been doing it.


Republicans are smart. They’ll play the long game. Wait until they have control of the Senate, House and Presidency and eliminate the filibuster to make abortion illegal Federally, roll back voting rights through legislation and pack the courts with more right wing judges. Thereby cementing a right wing dictatorship for the foreseeable future. You know what they won’t do? Talk about any of this publicly to give their opponents any fodder for elections.

Which makes Democrats that much more frustrating because instead of focusing on what needs to be done and being laser focused on exposing Republicans as an extreme, Facist party, they’re talking about stupid unachievable **** like packing the courts, eliminating the filibuster or impeaching Supreme Court judges. That’s a much longer term strategy, but takes the focus away from what needs to actually happen now and makes the whole Democratic Party look ineffective when in reality it’s a small number of individual ****.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1686 » by Wizardspride » Sat May 7, 2022 4:47 pm

Read on Twitter
?t=FpQVorcFBK6Ol5l4xKJ2lA&s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1687 » by dobrojim » Sat May 7, 2022 6:15 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2022/05/06/hotze-texas-recording-ballots/

Love to see the full force of the law come down on the 'investigator' and his patron.

Why is nearly all the fraud and/or other illegal unethical behavior around our elections
being done by the party that says the other side is cheating? They are the kings of projection.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1688 » by dobrojim » Sat May 7, 2022 6:34 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/06/jan-6-ray-epps-tucker-carlson-right-wing-lie/

A key GOP trope about Jan 6 just blew up. But I'm sure Tuck'ums won't notice or report this

There is no evidence that the 1/6 insurrection was a false flag operation instigated by the FBI.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1689 » by closg00 » Sat May 7, 2022 8:04 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Republicans are smart. They’ll play the long game. Wait until they have control of the Senate, House and Presidency and eliminate the filibuster to make abortion illegal Federally, roll back voting rights through legislation and pack the courts with more right wing judges. Thereby cementing a right wing dictatorship for the foreseeable future. You know what they won’t do? Talk about any of this publicly to give their opponents any fodder for elections.

Which makes Democrats that much more frustrating because instead of focusing on what needs to be done and being laser focused on exposing Republicans as an extreme, Facist party, they’re talking about stupid unachievable **** like packing the courts, eliminating the filibuster or impeaching Supreme Court judges. That’s a much longer term strategy, but takes the focus away from what needs to actually happen now and makes the whole Democratic Party look ineffective when in reality it’s a small number of individual ****.


Yup, and add even more voter suppression laws, through legislation they will cut-out/remove millions of voters who have been voting without issue for decades.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1690 » by Pointgod » Sun May 8, 2022 2:59 am

closg00 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Republicans are smart. They’ll play the long game. Wait until they have control of the Senate, House and Presidency and eliminate the filibuster to make abortion illegal Federally, roll back voting rights through legislation and pack the courts with more right wing judges. Thereby cementing a right wing dictatorship for the foreseeable future. You know what they won’t do? Talk about any of this publicly to give their opponents any fodder for elections.

Which makes Democrats that much more frustrating because instead of focusing on what needs to be done and being laser focused on exposing Republicans as an extreme, Facist party, they’re talking about stupid unachievable **** like packing the courts, eliminating the filibuster or impeaching Supreme Court judges. That’s a much longer term strategy, but takes the focus away from what needs to actually happen now and makes the whole Democratic Party look ineffective when in reality it’s a small number of individual ****.


Yup, and add even more voter suppression laws, through legislation they will cut-out/remove millions of voters who have been voting without issue for decades.


A sign of decaying Democracy is rolling back women’s rights. The Republicans have literally telegraphed and provided a blue print of exactly how horrible they’ll be if they get power. I honestly don’t know why people can’t put aside their petty beefs with the Democratic Party to see this. All the “Democrats suck because my candidate didn’t win” **** can miss me with all of that garbage. This is verging on 2016 all over again. Little by little rights will go away until you wake up in a country that’s led by minority rule and there’s zero way to reverse course.

Republicans haven’t been shy about how horrible they’ll be if they control all three levers of Congress again.

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1691 » by Pointgod » Sun May 8, 2022 10:37 pm

If John Roberts wasn’t such a supreme coward, he come out in support of term n limits. The court is a joke and term limits is a less volatile action than packing the courts (which is fine, just don’t focus on it)

Read on Twitter
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1692 » by Zonkerbl » Mon May 9, 2022 5:01 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


my old a$$ thinking 1980 was 30 years ago...


What the people that are against vote blue no matter who fail to grasp is that vote for whoever you want in the primary, but if your preferred candidate doesn’t win, don’t sit at home, throw your full support behind Democrats up and down the ballot. It’s a pretty simple litmus test, vote for whoever isn’t in the party that’s trying to destroy Democracy. And don’t discourage other voters by constantly **** on the one party who isn’t full of crazy people. The states are the best chance to protect rights as long as there’s a far right Supreme Court and the Republicans in the Federal government try to burn down the Federal government


Tried to explain the frustration to my moms yesterday, she was also like "what can you do? Manchin! Sinema!" and I said something to the effect of "these are people in your party. there must be some deal you can make. failing to do anything is incompetence"
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1693 » by pancakes3 » Mon May 9, 2022 9:20 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter
?t=FpQVorcFBK6Ol5l4xKJ2lA&s=19


What a peek behind the curtain, and coming form Thomas of all people.

The reason why conservatives have such a boner for textualism and originalism is that it's the easiest way to justify the deprivation of rights acquired by the American people over the years via SCOTUS: worker's rights, black rights, women's rights, lgbtq+ rights, etc.

Turning back the clock and saying whatever rights were in place in 1788 are what we get now allows conservatives to market it as "what the framers intended" instead of saying the quite part out loud as "this is what white landowning men declared"

Conservatives are also in love with the idea of "natural right" derived from a higher power; those that are universal, fundamental, inalienable, and patently obvious. Their justification of these "natural rights" is that they are historically embedded in human history that it has to be fundamental. This allows them to draw a distinction between natural rights and legal rights, the latter of which are "only" provided for by a legal system, or some other manmade construct.

This is BS because there is no such thing as a natural right. All rights are derived from social contracts, necessary for the establishment of civilization. We don't lie, steal, kill, or covet our neighbors' wives because as a society we agreed not to, not because God told us from on high. But again, this allows Conservatives to hide behind the skirt of a higher being, and say "well, these Natural Rights that we see in history say nothing about LGBTQ+, or race, or women, so they must not be important."

We are the society that we choose to be. Clarence Thomas telling the American People that despite them agreeing that a right to abortion should exist, the legal system (the exact system that establishes rights) cannot be "bullied" into giving them the rights they want? That's a direct slap to the face of the concept of a social contract.

It's a perversion of the constitution.

The perverse logic flows as such: constitution guarantees the rights of the citizens -> whatever is not in the constitution must be unconstitutional (incorrect*) -> if you want to amend the constitution, you have to go through the proper channels -> oh shucks, looks like a certain political party has exploited and corrupted those proper channels so that such amendments are practically impossible.

The United States' longest drought in between Amendments was between 1804 and 1865, shortly after the Bill of Rights through the reconstruction amendments that abolished slavery. Should be obvious why securing sufficient bipartisanship during this period for amendments was impossible during this period.

There was a 43 year gap between the 15th amendment (right to vote for AA) and 16th amendments (income tax) and a 21 year gap between the 26th and 27th amendment (voting age set at 18; congressional salaries).

We're currently sitting at a 30 year gap without an amendment, and there have been some really interesting amendments that are still on the table that are still sitting outstanding, including a "abolish the Senate" amendment from 1911, a "maximum wage" amendment capping wealth at $1M from 1933 after the wall street crash, a "Balanced budget" amendment that's been sitting from also the early 1930's, a "Single Subject Amendment" that would prevent Congress from adding pork riders to bills, judicial term limit amendments, and a host of election security amendments. The Equal Rights Amendment has been pending since 1923. Environmentalists have been pushing for a "Green" Amendment since the 90's that would list the individual right to clean air and water as an enumerated right.

Election security amendments include an amendment to overturn Citizens United (declaring the Corporations are people, and are capable of free speech and that money = speech that has exploded dark money spending in elections), anti-gerrymandering amendment, declaring Election day a national holiday to increase voter access, etc.

Seeing as how we can't even pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, I'd bet money that we'll break the 43 year drought and possibly even the 61 year drought, which would indicate that the nation is actually more partisan now than during slavery.

*Roe was clearly decided on the right to privacy, which has been the legal platform on which countless other rights, such as the right to interracial marriage, gay marriage, contraception, school choice. Conservatives hate this because it's a grey area where liberals can point to that supports unenumerated rights in the Constitution. Conservatives love privacy but hate that there are cases that they oppose that stem out of privacy. Stand your ground, school choice, and briefly anti-maskers all invoked "the right to privacy" in supporting their points, but now dance gleefully at the death of Roe.

**it's also important to note that Dobbs, when passed, will be a rare instance where SCOTUS overturns a case so as to take rights away from citizens. When Brown v. Board overturned Plessy, it got rid of "Separate but Equal" and granted rights. Lawrence v. Texas overturned Bowers v. Hardwick re: sodomy, in granting rights to citizens to make love how they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Loving v. Virginia overturned Pace v. Alabama re: interracial marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry the race they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Obergefell overturned Baker v. Nelson re: gay marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry any person they so choose (on the basis of privacy). West Virginia BOE v. Barnette overruled Minersville School District v. Gobitis and held that a student had the freedom to not salute the american flag if the student so chose.

I say rare, but not unique. Cases like West Coast Hotel Company v. Parrish overturned the infamous Lochner case, where in Lochner, it was found that a maximum hour law in NY (60 hrs a week) was unconstitutional due to a citizen's freedom to enter into contracts for however many hours the citizen chose. This obviously led to business owners exploiting the heck out of their workers. Parrish reversed and took away the "freedom to contract" argument "to promote worker safety" and paved the way for labor-protection laws to be put in place at the cost of workers' right to "contract" (allowing for child labor laws, OSHA regulations, etc.)



EDIT: TL;DR

Thomas is a doofus and said the quiet part out loud: Republicans don't care about democracy. He freely admits that the majority of Americans don't want this, but they don't get to have it their way because Republicans control the halls of power. The will of the people want it, there's a 50 year old SCOTUS precedent set in place, and the second that FedSoc got enough bootlickers onto the bench, BING ZAM. reversed. Will of the people don't matter. Precedent doesn't matter. All that matters is their agenda, which they don't even care about, but for the fact that they've indoctrinated a hyperloyal base into thinking it's important.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1694 » by Pointgod » Tue May 10, 2022 1:13 am

closg00 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:It’s worth remembering that any law needs 60 votes to pass the Senate because of the filibuster.

It takes 50 votes to eliminate the filibuster.

Right now the Democrats only have 48 votes to eliminate the filibuster, realistically probably less.

That means the need at least 2 more Senate seats, probably 3 or 4 just to be safe. This is why you shouldn’t pay attention to people on Twitter yelling that Democrats don’t do anything.

There are 5 races that are considered a toss up, 3 of them Democrats currently hold the seat. There are 3 seats that lean Republican, Florida, Ohio and North Carolina. If the Democrats win all the toss ups, hopefully you have the votes to eliminate the filibuster. Both Ohio and North Carolina, there is no incumbent so there’s a better chance of an upset. There are multiple paths to increasing the seats in the Senate and eliminating the filibuster.

Simply put everyone’s energy should be on expanding the seats in the Senate, House, and local races. More people on Twitter and social media need to be amplifying this message instead of yelling into the void.


You can bet your life savings that Republicans will attempt to eliminate the filibuster if a future Republican President's legislation was being stopped in the way they have been doing it.


Oh for sure. Republicans have literally telegraphed this. They’ve shown they don’t care about lying or hypocrisy. And you know what? That’s what they should do. The filibuster is completely made up bull, if you want to pass legislation that’s really important to you and the other party refuses to work with you, then just eliminate it. I will not complain at all when Republicans eliminate the filibuster, it’s what any smart party should do. Its only idiots like Manchin and Sinema that believe in preserving the filibuster over Democracy and human rights.

And that’s why people need to keep voting for Democrats no matter what. People need to protect themselves from dumbass Democrats who trust Republicans. Republicans need to be shut out of power until you get the right Democrats to eliminate the filibuster and enact laws. This is also why it was important to vote for the emails lady because we’re now seeing the real life repercussions of the damage Republicans will cause. Local, State, Federal all these elections matter.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1695 » by Pointgod » Tue May 10, 2022 1:49 am

Zonkerbl wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


my old a$$ thinking 1980 was 30 years ago...


What the people that are against vote blue no matter who fail to grasp is that vote for whoever you want in the primary, but if your preferred candidate doesn’t win, don’t sit at home, throw your full support behind Democrats up and down the ballot. It’s a pretty simple litmus test, vote for whoever isn’t in the party that’s trying to destroy Democracy. And don’t discourage other voters by constantly **** on the one party who isn’t full of crazy people. The states are the best chance to protect rights as long as there’s a far right Supreme Court and the Republicans in the Federal government try to burn down the Federal government


Tried to explain the frustration to my moms yesterday, she was also like "what can you do? Manchin! Sinema!" and I said something to the effect of "these are people in your party. there must be some deal you can make. failing to do anything is incompetence"


What are you going to do about Manchin and Sinema? They aren’t up for election for another 2 years and if there was any compromising material ala Madison Cawthorne we would have seen some drop to get their votes.

Here’s the issue with Manchin that Progressive Twitter refuses to understand.

https://morningconsult.com/2022/04/25/joe-manchins-approach-paying-off/

In surveys conducted Jan. 1-March 31, 57% of West Virginia voters approved of Manchin’s job performance, up from 40% during the first quarter of 2021 — the biggest increase of any senator over that time frame.


Manchin’s increased popularity is driven primarily by Republican voters: 69% now approve of his job performance, doubling his rating from the first quarter of last year, when 35% approved. Most of that improvement has come since the third quarter of 2021 — before he killed the Democrats’ “Build Back Better” domestic policy legislation.


As much a complete **** and sack of **** that Manchin is, the fact is that he’s still popular in his state. He out polls Biden and any other Democrat. Not every State is New York and California. So instead of yelling about Manchin, Democrats should talk about what they’ve been able to do and get more Democrats in the Senate elected to make Manchin and Sinema irrelevant. I wish more people on the left would focus on talking about the Senate races that are winnable and what Democrats have delivered on than just yelling into the void about Sinema and Manchin or taking shots at each other.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1696 » by popper » Tue May 10, 2022 2:37 am

pancakes3 wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter
?t=FpQVorcFBK6Ol5l4xKJ2lA&s=19


What a peek behind the curtain, and coming form Thomas of all people.

The reason why conservatives have such a boner for textualism and originalism is that it's the easiest way to justify the deprivation of rights acquired by the American people over the years via SCOTUS: worker's rights, black rights, women's rights, lgbtq+ rights, etc.

Turning back the clock and saying whatever rights were in place in 1788 are what we get now allows conservatives to market it as "what the framers intended" instead of saying the quite part out loud as "this is what white landowning men declared"

Conservatives are also in love with the idea of "natural right" derived from a higher power; those that are universal, fundamental, inalienable, and patently obvious. Their justification of these "natural rights" is that they are historically embedded in human history that it has to be fundamental. This allows them to draw a distinction between natural rights and legal rights, the latter of which are "only" provided for by a legal system, or some other manmade construct.

This is BS because there is no such thing as a natural right. All rights are derived from social contracts, necessary for the establishment of civilization. We don't lie, steal, kill, or covet our neighbors' wives because as a society we agreed not to, not because God told us from on high. But again, this allows Conservatives to hide behind the skirt of a higher being, and say "well, these Natural Rights that we see in history say nothing about LGBTQ+, or race, or women, so they must not be important."

We are the society that we choose to be. Clarence Thomas telling the American People that despite them agreeing that a right to abortion should exist, the legal system (the exact system that establishes rights) cannot be "bullied" into giving them the rights they want? That's a direct slap to the face of the concept of a social contract.

It's a perversion of the constitution.

The perverse logic flows as such: constitution guarantees the rights of the citizens -> whatever is not in the constitution must be unconstitutional (incorrect*) -> if you want to amend the constitution, you have to go through the proper channels -> oh shucks, looks like a certain political party has exploited and corrupted those proper channels so that such amendments are practically impossible.

The United States' longest drought in between Amendments was between 1804 and 1865, shortly after the Bill of Rights through the reconstruction amendments that abolished slavery. Should be obvious why securing sufficient bipartisanship during this period for amendments was impossible during this period.

There was a 43 year gap between the 15th amendment (right to vote for AA) and 16th amendments (income tax) and a 21 year gap between the 26th and 27th amendment (voting age set at 18; congressional salaries).

We're currently sitting at a 30 year gap without an amendment, and there have been some really interesting amendments that are still on the table that are still sitting outstanding, including a "abolish the Senate" amendment from 1911, a "maximum wage" amendment capping wealth at $1M from 1933 after the wall street crash, a "Balanced budget" amendment that's been sitting from also the early 1930's, a "Single Subject Amendment" that would prevent Congress from adding pork riders to bills, judicial term limit amendments, and a host of election security amendments. The Equal Rights Amendment has been pending since 1923. Environmentalists have been pushing for a "Green" Amendment since the 90's that would list the individual right to clean air and water as an enumerated right.

Election security amendments include an amendment to overturn Citizens United (declaring the Corporations are people, and are capable of free speech and that money = speech that has exploded dark money spending in elections), anti-gerrymandering amendment, declaring Election day a national holiday to increase voter access, etc.

Seeing as how we can't even pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, I'd bet money that we'll break the 43 year drought and possibly even the 61 year drought, which would indicate that the nation is actually more partisan now than during slavery.

*Roe was clearly decided on the right to privacy, which has been the legal platform on which countless other rights, such as the right to interracial marriage, gay marriage, contraception, school choice. Conservatives hate this because it's a grey area where liberals can point to that supports unenumerated rights in the Constitution. Conservatives love privacy but hate that there are cases that they oppose that stem out of privacy. Stand your ground, school choice, and briefly anti-maskers all invoked "the right to privacy" in supporting their points, but now dance gleefully at the death of Roe.

**it's also important to note that Dobbs, when passed, will be a rare instance where SCOTUS overturns a case so as to take rights away from citizens. When Brown v. Board overturned Plessy, it got rid of "Separate but Equal" and granted rights. Lawrence v. Texas overturned Bowers v. Hardwick re: sodomy, in granting rights to citizens to make love how they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Loving v. Virginia overturned Pace v. Alabama re: interracial marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry the race they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Obergefell overturned Baker v. Nelson re: gay marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry any person they so choose (on the basis of privacy). West Virginia BOE v. Barnette overruled Minersville School District v. Gobitis and held that a student had the freedom to not salute the american flag if the student so chose.

I say rare, but not unique. Cases like West Coast Hotel Company v. Parrish overturned the infamous Lochner case, where in Lochner, it was found that a maximum hour law in NY (60 hrs a week) was unconstitutional due to a citizen's freedom to enter into contracts for however many hours the citizen chose. This obviously led to business owners exploiting the heck out of their workers. Parrish reversed and took away the "freedom to contract" argument "to promote worker safety" and paved the way for labor-protection laws to be put in place at the cost of workers' right to "contract" (allowing for child labor laws, OSHA regulations, etc.)



EDIT: TL;DR

Thomas is a doofus and said the quiet part out loud: Republicans don't care about democracy. He freely admits that the majority of Americans don't want this, but they don't get to have it their way because Republicans control the halls of power. The will of the people want it, there's a 50 year old SCOTUS precedent set in place, and the second that FedSoc got enough bootlickers onto the bench, BING ZAM. reversed. Will of the people don't matter. Precedent doesn't matter. All that matters is their agenda, which they don't even care about, but for the fact that they've indoctrinated a hyperloyal base into thinking it's important.


Wow. If memory serves me you're a lawyer aren't you Pancakes?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1697 » by pancakes3 » Tue May 10, 2022 3:17 am

popper wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter
?t=FpQVorcFBK6Ol5l4xKJ2lA&s=19


What a peek behind the curtain, and coming form Thomas of all people.

The reason why conservatives have such a boner for textualism and originalism is that it's the easiest way to justify the deprivation of rights acquired by the American people over the years via SCOTUS: worker's rights, black rights, women's rights, lgbtq+ rights, etc.

Turning back the clock and saying whatever rights were in place in 1788 are what we get now allows conservatives to market it as "what the framers intended" instead of saying the quite part out loud as "this is what white landowning men declared"

Conservatives are also in love with the idea of "natural right" derived from a higher power; those that are universal, fundamental, inalienable, and patently obvious. Their justification of these "natural rights" is that they are historically embedded in human history that it has to be fundamental. This allows them to draw a distinction between natural rights and legal rights, the latter of which are "only" provided for by a legal system, or some other manmade construct.

This is BS because there is no such thing as a natural right. All rights are derived from social contracts, necessary for the establishment of civilization. We don't lie, steal, kill, or covet our neighbors' wives because as a society we agreed not to, not because God told us from on high. But again, this allows Conservatives to hide behind the skirt of a higher being, and say "well, these Natural Rights that we see in history say nothing about LGBTQ+, or race, or women, so they must not be important."

We are the society that we choose to be. Clarence Thomas telling the American People that despite them agreeing that a right to abortion should exist, the legal system (the exact system that establishes rights) cannot be "bullied" into giving them the rights they want? That's a direct slap to the face of the concept of a social contract.

It's a perversion of the constitution.

The perverse logic flows as such: constitution guarantees the rights of the citizens -> whatever is not in the constitution must be unconstitutional (incorrect*) -> if you want to amend the constitution, you have to go through the proper channels -> oh shucks, looks like a certain political party has exploited and corrupted those proper channels so that such amendments are practically impossible.

The United States' longest drought in between Amendments was between 1804 and 1865, shortly after the Bill of Rights through the reconstruction amendments that abolished slavery. Should be obvious why securing sufficient bipartisanship during this period for amendments was impossible during this period.

There was a 43 year gap between the 15th amendment (right to vote for AA) and 16th amendments (income tax) and a 21 year gap between the 26th and 27th amendment (voting age set at 18; congressional salaries).

We're currently sitting at a 30 year gap without an amendment, and there have been some really interesting amendments that are still on the table that are still sitting outstanding, including a "abolish the Senate" amendment from 1911, a "maximum wage" amendment capping wealth at $1M from 1933 after the wall street crash, a "Balanced budget" amendment that's been sitting from also the early 1930's, a "Single Subject Amendment" that would prevent Congress from adding pork riders to bills, judicial term limit amendments, and a host of election security amendments. The Equal Rights Amendment has been pending since 1923. Environmentalists have been pushing for a "Green" Amendment since the 90's that would list the individual right to clean air and water as an enumerated right.

Election security amendments include an amendment to overturn Citizens United (declaring the Corporations are people, and are capable of free speech and that money = speech that has exploded dark money spending in elections), anti-gerrymandering amendment, declaring Election day a national holiday to increase voter access, etc.

Seeing as how we can't even pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, I'd bet money that we'll break the 43 year drought and possibly even the 61 year drought, which would indicate that the nation is actually more partisan now than during slavery.

*Roe was clearly decided on the right to privacy, which has been the legal platform on which countless other rights, such as the right to interracial marriage, gay marriage, contraception, school choice. Conservatives hate this because it's a grey area where liberals can point to that supports unenumerated rights in the Constitution. Conservatives love privacy but hate that there are cases that they oppose that stem out of privacy. Stand your ground, school choice, and briefly anti-maskers all invoked "the right to privacy" in supporting their points, but now dance gleefully at the death of Roe.

**it's also important to note that Dobbs, when passed, will be a rare instance where SCOTUS overturns a case so as to take rights away from citizens. When Brown v. Board overturned Plessy, it got rid of "Separate but Equal" and granted rights. Lawrence v. Texas overturned Bowers v. Hardwick re: sodomy, in granting rights to citizens to make love how they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Loving v. Virginia overturned Pace v. Alabama re: interracial marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry the race they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Obergefell overturned Baker v. Nelson re: gay marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry any person they so choose (on the basis of privacy). West Virginia BOE v. Barnette overruled Minersville School District v. Gobitis and held that a student had the freedom to not salute the american flag if the student so chose.

I say rare, but not unique. Cases like West Coast Hotel Company v. Parrish overturned the infamous Lochner case, where in Lochner, it was found that a maximum hour law in NY (60 hrs a week) was unconstitutional due to a citizen's freedom to enter into contracts for however many hours the citizen chose. This obviously led to business owners exploiting the heck out of their workers. Parrish reversed and took away the "freedom to contract" argument "to promote worker safety" and paved the way for labor-protection laws to be put in place at the cost of workers' right to "contract" (allowing for child labor laws, OSHA regulations, etc.)



EDIT: TL;DR

Thomas is a doofus and said the quiet part out loud: Republicans don't care about democracy. He freely admits that the majority of Americans don't want this, but they don't get to have it their way because Republicans control the halls of power. The will of the people want it, there's a 50 year old SCOTUS precedent set in place, and the second that FedSoc got enough bootlickers onto the bench, BING ZAM. reversed. Will of the people don't matter. Precedent doesn't matter. All that matters is their agenda, which they don't even care about, but for the fact that they've indoctrinated a hyperloyal base into thinking it's important.


Wow. If memory serves me you're a lawyer aren't you Pancakes?


i am.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1698 » by Zonkerbl » Tue May 10, 2022 11:43 am

Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
What the people that are against vote blue no matter who fail to grasp is that vote for whoever you want in the primary, but if your preferred candidate doesn’t win, don’t sit at home, throw your full support behind Democrats up and down the ballot. It’s a pretty simple litmus test, vote for whoever isn’t in the party that’s trying to destroy Democracy. And don’t discourage other voters by constantly **** on the one party who isn’t full of crazy people. The states are the best chance to protect rights as long as there’s a far right Supreme Court and the Republicans in the Federal government try to burn down the Federal government


Tried to explain the frustration to my moms yesterday, she was also like "what can you do? Manchin! Sinema!" and I said something to the effect of "these are people in your party. there must be some deal you can make. failing to do anything is incompetence"


What are you going to do about Manchin and Sinema? They aren’t up for election for another 2 years and if there was any compromising material ala Madison Cawthorne we would have seen some drop to get their votes.

Here’s the issue with Manchin that Progressive Twitter refuses to understand.

https://morningconsult.com/2022/04/25/joe-manchins-approach-paying-off/

In surveys conducted Jan. 1-March 31, 57% of West Virginia voters approved of Manchin’s job performance, up from 40% during the first quarter of 2021 — the biggest increase of any senator over that time frame.


Manchin’s increased popularity is driven primarily by Republican voters: 69% now approve of his job performance, doubling his rating from the first quarter of last year, when 35% approved. Most of that improvement has come since the third quarter of 2021 — before he killed the Democrats’ “Build Back Better” domestic policy legislation.


As much a complete **** and sack of **** that Manchin is, the fact is that he’s still popular in his state. He out polls Biden and any other Democrat. Not every State is New York and California. So instead of yelling about Manchin, Democrats should talk about what they’ve been able to do and get more Democrats in the Senate elected to make Manchin and Sinema irrelevant. I wish more people on the left would focus on talking about the Senate races that are winnable and what Democrats have delivered on than just yelling into the void about Sinema and Manchin or taking shots at each other.


What would I do about Manchin and Sinema? I would ignore them and focus on the infinite number of things I can do that doesn't involve wasting time on legislation I know will be struck down by the supreme court.

I would ignore Fox News and stop responding to their propaganda as if it mattered - the press won't focus on the good things you do, only magnifying and amplifying every time you surrender to their hysterical bleating. I would go on a tour of the cities that got me elected and I would talk to the constituencies that elected me. I would listen to them and say publicly that I support them, that we can work together and return the demons to hell that the GOP have summoned, that we can fix the SCOTUS, we can fix gerrymandering, we can fix abortion, we can fix voting rights, we can end the police state for black people - these are all solveable problems if we work together. Just say it. The very least you could do is say to the people who elected you that you have their back. Then I would work with the Democratic party to organize a massive local representation drive, focusing on every part of the country.

I'd also recruit the vast majority of Christians in this country that are liberal. Yeah yeah it's illegal for churches to be political, and a lot of liberal church leaders will tell you "our job is God, not politics" but I would do whatever I can to make connections in the religious community and point out that we are in a war with Satan right now. Maybe not in so many words, because that kind of language gets used by Satanists to commit evil, but that's got to be the theme. We're up against a powerful enemy that lies and cheats and murders and is focused on wielding power over all else. The antichrist is here. This is it folks, this is what you've all been preparing for all your life. Join us in the war against evil.

All this "oh we can't break the filibuster" whining and excuse making is pathetic. This is literally the end times. The Democrats are Ukraine and Trump is Putin. We have to fight for our lives here, everywhere, all the time. Not just at the federal level. At the state level. At the county level. In our school boards, our zoning boards, our locally elected judges and sheriffs and DAs. Evil has infected our country at every crack it can ooze in. We can address the devils in DC once we've fought back the demons from our front door.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1699 » by Pointgod » Tue May 10, 2022 12:58 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter
?t=FpQVorcFBK6Ol5l4xKJ2lA&s=19


What a peek behind the curtain, and coming form Thomas of all people.

The reason why conservatives have such a boner for textualism and originalism is that it's the easiest way to justify the deprivation of rights acquired by the American people over the years via SCOTUS: worker's rights, black rights, women's rights, lgbtq+ rights, etc.

Turning back the clock and saying whatever rights were in place in 1788 are what we get now allows conservatives to market it as "what the framers intended" instead of saying the quite part out loud as "this is what white landowning men declared"

Conservatives are also in love with the idea of "natural right" derived from a higher power; those that are universal, fundamental, inalienable, and patently obvious. Their justification of these "natural rights" is that they are historically embedded in human history that it has to be fundamental. This allows them to draw a distinction between natural rights and legal rights, the latter of which are "only" provided for by a legal system, or some other manmade construct.

This is BS because there is no such thing as a natural right. All rights are derived from social contracts, necessary for the establishment of civilization. We don't lie, steal, kill, or covet our neighbors' wives because as a society we agreed not to, not because God told us from on high. But again, this allows Conservatives to hide behind the skirt of a higher being, and say "well, these Natural Rights that we see in history say nothing about LGBTQ+, or race, or women, so they must not be important."

We are the society that we choose to be. Clarence Thomas telling the American People that despite them agreeing that a right to abortion should exist, the legal system (the exact system that establishes rights) cannot be "bullied" into giving them the rights they want? That's a direct slap to the face of the concept of a social contract.

It's a perversion of the constitution.

The perverse logic flows as such: constitution guarantees the rights of the citizens -> whatever is not in the constitution must be unconstitutional (incorrect*) -> if you want to amend the constitution, you have to go through the proper channels -> oh shucks, looks like a certain political party has exploited and corrupted those proper channels so that such amendments are practically impossible.

The United States' longest drought in between Amendments was between 1804 and 1865, shortly after the Bill of Rights through the reconstruction amendments that abolished slavery. Should be obvious why securing sufficient bipartisanship during this period for amendments was impossible during this period.

There was a 43 year gap between the 15th amendment (right to vote for AA) and 16th amendments (income tax) and a 21 year gap between the 26th and 27th amendment (voting age set at 18; congressional salaries).

We're currently sitting at a 30 year gap without an amendment, and there have been some really interesting amendments that are still on the table that are still sitting outstanding, including a "abolish the Senate" amendment from 1911, a "maximum wage" amendment capping wealth at $1M from 1933 after the wall street crash, a "Balanced budget" amendment that's been sitting from also the early 1930's, a "Single Subject Amendment" that would prevent Congress from adding pork riders to bills, judicial term limit amendments, and a host of election security amendments. The Equal Rights Amendment has been pending since 1923. Environmentalists have been pushing for a "Green" Amendment since the 90's that would list the individual right to clean air and water as an enumerated right.

Election security amendments include an amendment to overturn Citizens United (declaring the Corporations are people, and are capable of free speech and that money = speech that has exploded dark money spending in elections), anti-gerrymandering amendment, declaring Election day a national holiday to increase voter access, etc.

Seeing as how we can't even pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, I'd bet money that we'll break the 43 year drought and possibly even the 61 year drought, which would indicate that the nation is actually more partisan now than during slavery.

*Roe was clearly decided on the right to privacy, which has been the legal platform on which countless other rights, such as the right to interracial marriage, gay marriage, contraception, school choice. Conservatives hate this because it's a grey area where liberals can point to that supports unenumerated rights in the Constitution. Conservatives love privacy but hate that there are cases that they oppose that stem out of privacy. Stand your ground, school choice, and briefly anti-maskers all invoked "the right to privacy" in supporting their points, but now dance gleefully at the death of Roe.

**it's also important to note that Dobbs, when passed, will be a rare instance where SCOTUS overturns a case so as to take rights away from citizens. When Brown v. Board overturned Plessy, it got rid of "Separate but Equal" and granted rights. Lawrence v. Texas overturned Bowers v. Hardwick re: sodomy, in granting rights to citizens to make love how they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Loving v. Virginia overturned Pace v. Alabama re: interracial marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry the race they so choose (on the basis of privacy). Obergefell overturned Baker v. Nelson re: gay marriage, granting rights to citizens to marry any person they so choose (on the basis of privacy). West Virginia BOE v. Barnette overruled Minersville School District v. Gobitis and held that a student had the freedom to not salute the american flag if the student so chose.

I say rare, but not unique. Cases like West Coast Hotel Company v. Parrish overturned the infamous Lochner case, where in Lochner, it was found that a maximum hour law in NY (60 hrs a week) was unconstitutional due to a citizen's freedom to enter into contracts for however many hours the citizen chose. This obviously led to business owners exploiting the heck out of their workers. Parrish reversed and took away the "freedom to contract" argument "to promote worker safety" and paved the way for labor-protection laws to be put in place at the cost of workers' right to "contract" (allowing for child labor laws, OSHA regulations, etc.)



EDIT: TL;DR

Thomas is a doofus and said the quiet part out loud: Republicans don't care about democracy. He freely admits that the majority of Americans don't want this, but they don't get to have it their way because Republicans control the halls of power. The will of the people want it, there's a 50 year old SCOTUS precedent set in place, and the second that FedSoc got enough bootlickers onto the bench, BING ZAM. reversed. Will of the people don't matter. Precedent doesn't matter. All that matters is their agenda, which they don't even care about, but for the fact that they've indoctrinated a hyperloyal base into thinking it's important.


Just wait until the Supreme Court gets rid of Affirmative Action next. Republicans literally said this is why they’re appointing activist judges to the Supreme Court. The sad part is people won’t take voting seriously until they’ve lost their rights, but by then it will be too late.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1700 » by Zonkerbl » Tue May 10, 2022 1:17 pm

I disagree that Corporations were not considered people before Citizens United. Corporations are legal fictions intended to have the same rights as people, that has always, always been true. Money has always, always been considered speech, and for very good reason - the only way a minority can show they are being unduly oppressed by the majority is to express their opposition in terms of the amount of money they're willing to spend to show how much they care about the issue. The problem is that that rule also makes it easy for rich people to subvert the government, but that isn't "money = speech"'s problem, in the sense that you're not going to solve that problem by saying money isn't speech. You're going to drive speech underground and encourage a lot of corruption, which gives deep pocketed corporations a huge advantage.

Corporations are legal fictions and they don't have all the rights a real person does - they're not allowed to vote, for example. So you can make an argument that corporations are not entitled to all rights so maybe restricting their speech is ok, and the SCOTUS said no. But money = speech is a deeply embedded guiding principle in constitutional law. Citizens United didn't make it up. It didn't make up that corporations are people either, that's also an age old principle, nor that Corporations are entitled to free speech generally.

I will say that if the right to privacy doesn't exist then no one has the right to donate anonymously and we can pass laws requiring donations to be disclosed. Kind of a crappy thing to do to Jews who have a history of anonymous donations though.
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