Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[Dark Faze]

I wouldn't trade Beal for Cousins because the center position is about to be stacked. There's a ton of 6'11 and 7 foot prospects out there in this years draft, and there are only like 3 teams in the league right now that don't have a starting caliber center.

Now trying to get a starting two guard worth a damn is another matter. The position is super thin and it becomes thinner when you try to find two guards that can actually fill up a stat sheet when playing off the ball--a lot of them are either defensive liabilities, chuckers, or both.

There are a ton of teams that have more than two starting centers. The Jazz potentially have three lol. The Sixers will have three. The Cavs have two. Wolves have two.

We're honestly experiencing a big man renaissance.

[TGW]

Would we trade Oubre in a deal centered around Ryan Anderson? Anderson is still a player I'd love to add to our roster. Wall would have more than enough spacing to do his thing with Anderson, Beal, and Porter on the floor with him.

[nate33]

Would we trade Oubre in a deal centered around Ryan Anderson? Anderson is still a player I'd love to add to our roster. Wall would have more than enough spacing to do his thing with Anderson, Beal, and Porter on the floor with him.

No. I have no faith in Anderson's durability. Also, he hasn't rebounded that well since his days in Orlando, and he hasn't even shot all that well lately. Right now, it's difficult to say that he's even better than Kris Humphries.



And most importantly, he is a free agent this summer. We'd be trading Oubre for a 70-game rental

[TGW]

Well Anderson has been knocking down threes for pretty much his entire career. The sample size on Hump shooting threes is very small. Can't really agree that Hump is nearly as good a shooter.

And while he doesn't rebound that great, he plays with a couple of great rebounders in eyebrow and Asik.

I'd still like to add him...he'd absolutely be an upgrade over Humphries.

EDIT: Is he a FA this offseason? ESPN is showing him as having 2 years left on his contract.

[nate33]

Well Anderson has been knocking down threes for pretty much his entire career. The sample size on Hump shooting threes is very small. Can't really agree that Hump is nearly as good a shooter.

And while he doesn't rebound that great, he plays with a couple of great rebounders in eyebrow and Asik.

I'd still like to add him...he'd absolutely be an upgrade over Humphries.

EDIT: Is he a FA this offseason? ESPN is showing him as having 2 years left on his contract.

My two sources (Basketballreference and Basketball Insiders) say he has just 1 year left. And he's not THAT great of a shooter. He shot just .340 from 3-point range last year and broke .400 only once in his career (in an injury-shortened season when he played just 22 games).

While I don't think Humphries is going to shoot .460 all season long, I do think he'll keep his percentage above .360. If he does that, then he should be close enough to Anderson that it's not worth the price to make the trade. It would be a horribly shortsighted move.

If we traded Oubre for Terrence Jones or Motiejunas, then at least the trade would be defensible because it would give us a long term asset that we could retain while going after Durant. Anderson will be gone this summer. You don't give away a draft pick or a recent draft pick for a 70-game rental.

[fishercob]

I don't care about Cousins' temper; I don't see it as a big deal. I don't have a problem w/ his "character" at all -- he has a personality, and he's passionate.

I care about his ability to put up numbers -- not just *some* numbers but across the board, because that's the way it is in basketball. Everyone does everything (some things more some less of course), and all of it influences wins and losses the same way no matter who is doing it. I.e. I don't worry about a quarterback's ability to tackle, but I do worry about a point guard's rebounding.

It's too few minutes to matter, but Cousins is *not* having "his best season." He's had some monster games, you bet. He'll have more too, because he's unbelievably gifted. But...

...though he's added the 3, and is shooting it well, his 2 pt. % is down. Overall, his TS% is .55 -- it was .54% last year. That's a little better, yes, and his turnovers are down some too -- also better. But his defensive rebounds, steals, blocks and assists have all dropped. Overall, using any measure but PER, he's actually a little down off of last year. His PER is up very very slightly (0.8).*

* Keep in mind that PER rewards volume shooters for their misses as well as their makes. E.g. look at Cousins' numbers vs. for example DeAndre Jordan. Leaving aside shooting, Jordan does most everything better. More rebounds, way fewer fouls, way fewer turnovers, almost as many steals, way more blocks, etc. But, every 40 minutes, Cousins makes 13+ more points shooting the ball than Jordan.

Yet, to do that, he has to take 17+ extra shots! That's 39% on the extra shots -- awful, but those misses *help* rather than hurt his PER. Even w/ Jordan's horrendous FT shooting, his TS% is .60 to Cousins' .56. And, he's better at everything else. Still, his PER is 18 to Cousins' 25

I am confused. FYI I never put too much stock in PER -- it doesn't strike me as a great barometer of impact.

However, I do see that DMC's WS/48, OBPM, Ortg and turnover percentage are the best they have ever been. His TS% is in the same neighborhood it has been for the previous two seasons. His defensive rebounding is down a touch, but he's still 7th in the league. His DRtg has gotten worse, but as I understand DRtg it is really a team stat.

As to Deandre Jordan, I don't question that he's a great player. But he's allowed to be great because he isn't asked to do a single thing that he can;t do well because he plays with two superstars. He also can't play late in games because he can't shoot from the line.

[fishercob]

Well Anderson has been knocking down threes for pretty much his entire career. The sample size on Hump shooting threes is very small. Can't really agree that Hump is nearly as good a shooter.

And while he doesn't rebound that great, he plays with a couple of great rebounders in eyebrow and Asik.

I'd still like to add him...he'd absolutely be an upgrade over Humphries.

EDIT: Is he a FA this offseason? ESPN is showing him as having 2 years left on his contract.

I'd like to add him on the cheap. No way is he worth giving up Oubre's long term potential for.

Unfortunately, he's never really been the same player since his girlfriend's suicide. He's nowhere close to the player that he was.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I don't care about Cousins' temper; I don't see it as a big deal. I don't have a problem w/ his "character" at all -- he has a personality, and he's passionate.

I care about his ability to put up numbers -- not just *some* numbers but across the board, because that's the way it is in basketball. Everyone does everything (some things more some less of course), and all of it influences wins and losses the same way no matter who is doing it. I.e. I don't worry about a quarterback's ability to tackle, but I do worry about a point guard's rebounding.

It's too few minutes to matter, but Cousins is *not* having "his best season." He's had some monster games, you bet. He'll have more too, because he's unbelievably gifted. But...

...though he's added the 3, and is shooting it well, his 2 pt. % is down. Overall, his TS% is .55 -- it was .54% last year. That's a little better, yes, and his turnovers are down some too -- also better. But his defensive rebounds, steals, blocks and assists have all dropped. Overall, using any measure but PER, he's actually a little down off of last year. His PER is up very very slightly (0.8).*

* Keep in mind that PER rewards volume shooters for their misses as well as their makes. E.g. look at Cousins' numbers vs. for example DeAndre Jordan. Leaving aside shooting, Jordan does most everything better. More rebounds, way fewer fouls, way fewer turnovers, almost as many steals, way more blocks, etc. But, every 40 minutes, Cousins makes 13+ more points shooting the ball than Jordan.

Yet, to do that, he has to take 17+ extra shots! That's 39% on the extra shots -- awful, but those misses *help* rather than hurt his PER. Even w/ Jordan's horrendous FT shooting, his TS% is .60 to Cousins' .56. And, he's better at everything else. Still, his PER is 18 to Cousins' 25

Pif, Cousins never was asked to be a stretch four. Now he's killing it from three.

Cousins never played with Rondo, who has had several triple doubles. (Lower rebounds percentage explained).

Cousins never played with two viable Cs, Koufos and Willie Cauley Stein. (He's being effected by other bigs like Nene effects Gortat when both bigs are on the court.)

Your aversion to Cousins is noted. Twelve games of stats with him injured and with roster flux explains all.

IMO you're wrong as heck. Cousins is better than ever.




John Wall or Demarcus Cousins+Derrick Favors?

Five years it takes at to be correctly understood.

[rl25g]

After seeing the Porter/Beal debates I thought of this trade...how far off is the value of this?

Beal for McLemore and Cauley Stein?

Would either team do that. Our biggest weakness on our roster is a young, big. Getting Cauley-Stein on a rookie contract would be huge in filling that weakness. The reason for the Wizards doing this would be if they did not want to max out Beal and wanted to use him as an asset to fill their greatest need in the short and long term. In doing so, the Wiz would be making huge commitments to Wall, Porter and to a lesser extent, Oubre.

Beal would be a massive upgrade at the 2 guard for Sacramento, but it could be tough to trade WCS so early. Dependent on the direction Sacramento would want to go this year.

Do you think Sac would do this? Would the Wiz? Is the value right?

[stevemcqueen1]

Yes I think Sacramento would trade an average SG and a rookie center when they've already got an All Star Center for a budding All Star SG. Hell no would the Wizards make that deal.

[J-Ves]

Would we trade Oubre in a deal centered around Ryan Anderson? Anderson is still a player I'd love to add to our roster. Wall would have more than enough spacing to do his thing with Anderson, Beal, and Porter on the floor with him.

No way I give up Oubre for Anderson, but he is a guy to consider in free agency after we strike out on the KD/Whiteside sweepstakes


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[popper]

After seeing the Porter/Beal debates I thought of this trade...how far off is the value of this?

Beal for McLemore and Cauley Stein?

Would either team do that. Our biggest weakness on our roster is a young, big. Getting Cauley-Stein on a rookie contract would be huge in filling that weakness. The reason for the Wizards doing this would be if they did not want to max out Beal and wanted to use him as an asset to fill their greatest need in the short and long term. In doing so, the Wiz would be making huge commitments to Wall, Porter and to a lesser extent, Oubre.

Beal would be a massive upgrade at the 2 guard for Sacramento, but it could be tough to trade WCS so early. Dependent on the direction Sacramento would want to go this year.

Do you think Sac would do this? Would the Wiz? Is the value right?

I like the trade but our GM doesn't make bold moves unless he is forced to. I like Beal but I think WCS with Mclemore have more value given Beal's projected future salary.

[bsilver]

After seeing the Porter/Beal debates I thought of this trade...how far off is the value of this?

Beal for McLemore and Cauley Stein?

Would either team do that. Our biggest weakness on our roster is a young, big. Getting Cauley-Stein on a rookie contract would be huge in filling that weakness. The reason for the Wizards doing this would be if they did not want to max out Beal and wanted to use him as an asset to fill their greatest need in the short and long term. In doing so, the Wiz would be making huge commitments to Wall, Porter and to a lesser extent, Oubre.

Beal would be a massive upgrade at the 2 guard for Sacramento, but it could be tough to trade WCS so early. Dependent on the direction Sacramento would want to go this year.

Do you think Sac would do this? Would the Wiz? Is the value right?

I didn't understand the WCS pick for Sacramento, especially since they needed a long term solution as PG and Mudiay was still available. I think WCS and Mclemore are only marginal starters while Beal could be an all-star eventually. Beal will get a max contract barring injury, and everyone knows it. The Wizards will fork over the money because they have no choice, Losing him to another team is not an option.

[J-Ves]

Nene + filler for Monroe

Why for Bucks:
The Bucks have buyers remorse after signing Monroe to a big contract only to give up large amounts of points night after night. By trading for the expiring Nene they get out of Monroe's contract and take a crack at free agency again in 2016.

Why for Wiz:
-Monroe is a young offensive center who would come of the bench in Washington to mitigate his poor defensive ability not unlike how OKC uses Kanter. This creates huge mismatches nightly, as Monroe will score on opposing backups easily.
-Rather than wait for free agency next year, we get a big acquisition right away to make a push towards the finals immediately. We also remove the uncertainty of free agency(ie every free agent goes elsewhere and the Wiz are left holding the bag).

[fishercob]

I don't care about Cousins' temper; I don't see it as a big deal. I don't have a problem w/ his "character" at all -- he has a personality, and he's passionate.

I care about his ability to put up numbers -- not just *some* numbers but across the board, because that's the way it is in basketball. Everyone does everything (some things more some less of course), and all of it influences wins and losses the same way no matter who is doing it. I.e. I don't worry about a quarterback's ability to tackle, but I do worry about a point guard's rebounding.

It's too few minutes to matter, but Cousins is *not* having "his best season." He's had some monster games, you bet. He'll have more too, because he's unbelievably gifted. But...

...though he's added the 3, and is shooting it well, his 2 pt. % is down. Overall, his TS% is .55 -- it was .54% last year. That's a little better, yes, and his turnovers are down some too -- also better. But his defensive rebounds, steals, blocks and assists have all dropped. Overall, using any measure but PER, he's actually a little down off of last year. His PER is up very very slightly (0.8).*

* Keep in mind that PER rewards volume shooters for their misses as well as their makes. E.g. look at Cousins' numbers vs. for example DeAndre Jordan. Leaving aside shooting, Jordan does most everything better. More rebounds, way fewer fouls, way fewer turnovers, almost as many steals, way more blocks, etc. But, every 40 minutes, Cousins makes 13+ more points shooting the ball than Jordan.

Yet, to do that, he has to take 17+ extra shots! That's 39% on the extra shots -- awful, but those misses *help* rather than hurt his PER. Even w/ Jordan's horrendous FT shooting, his TS% is .60 to Cousins' .56. And, he's better at everything else. Still, his PER is 18 to Cousins' 25

Pif, Cousins never was asked to be a stretch four. Now he's killing it from three.

Cousins never played with Rondo, who has had several triple doubles. (Lower rebounds percentage explained).

Cousins never played with two viable Cs, Koufos and Willie Cauley Stein. (He's being effected by other bigs like Nene effects Gortat when both bigs are on the court.)

Your aversion to Cousins is noted. Twelve games of stats with him injured and with roster flux explains all.

IMO you're wrong as heck. Cousins is better than ever.




John Wall or Demarcus Cousins+Derrick Favors?

Five years it takes at to be correctly understood.

The compelling case against DMC: BOOGIE COUSINS' REAL FEUD IS WITH MATH

Consider last year's Kings. Cousins attempted 18.1 field goals per game, the highest number on a team that averaged 80.7 field goal attempts per game. Cousins also missed 23 games, in which Sacramento averaged 79.9 field goal attempts. When a player is removed from a roster, all the shots that player was taking don't vanish. They just get taken by someone else.

This is why scoring totals are a poor player evaluation tool, and why shooting efficiency is so important. Is a star player actually better at scoring than the guys who otherwise would be taking his shots? If not, he isn't much of a "star."

Historically, the average player at Cousins' position posts an effective field goal percentage of 49.2 percent. Yet for his career, Cousins has only had an effective field goal percentage of 46.4 percent. He's scoring points, but using the shots he's taking from his teammates inefficiently. That's not helping the Kings!

[LyricalRico]

Nene + filler for Monroe

Why for Bucks:
The Bucks have buyers remorse after signing Monroe to a big contract only to give up large amounts of points night after night. By trading for the expiring Nene they get out of Monroe's contract and take a crack at free agency again in 2016.

Why for Wiz:
-Monroe is a young offensive center who would come of the bench in Washington to mitigate his poor defensive ability not unlike how OKC uses Kanter. This creates huge mismatches nightly, as Monroe will score on opposing backups easily.
-Rather than wait for free agency next year, we get a big acquisition right away to make a push towards the finals immediately. We also remove the uncertainty of free agency(ie every free agent goes elsewhere and the Wiz are left holding the bag).

I'm not sure Milwaukee has buyer's remorse just yet, but certainly could at the end of the year. At this point I'd rather keep our options open, but Monroe for cap space is a decent Plan C if we can't hook bigger fish (my Plan B is still Melo).

[Illmatic12]

After seeing the Porter/Beal debates I thought of this trade...how far off is the value of this?

Beal for McLemore and Cauley Stein?

Would either team do that. Our biggest weakness on our roster is a young, big. Getting Cauley-Stein on a rookie contract would be huge in filling that weakness. The reason for the Wizards doing this would be if they did not want to max out Beal and wanted to use him as an asset to fill their greatest need in the short and long term. In doing so, the Wiz would be making huge commitments to Wall, Porter and to a lesser extent, Oubre.

Beal would be a massive upgrade at the 2 guard for Sacramento, but it could be tough to trade WCS so early. Dependent on the direction Sacramento would want to go this year.

Do you think Sac would do this? Would the Wiz? Is the value right?

So the Wizards best scorer becomes Wall? That team wouldn't go anywhere, John is not a #1 option scorer. No way

[J-Ves]

Nene + filler for Monroe

Why for Bucks:
The Bucks have buyers remorse after signing Monroe to a big contract only to give up large amounts of points night after night. By trading for the expiring Nene they get out of Monroe's contract and take a crack at free agency again in 2016.

Why for Wiz:
-Monroe is a young offensive center who would come of the bench in Washington to mitigate his poor defensive ability not unlike how OKC uses Kanter. This creates huge mismatches nightly, as Monroe will score on opposing backups easily.
-Rather than wait for free agency next year, we get a big acquisition right away to make a push towards the finals immediately. We also remove the uncertainty of free agency(ie every free agent goes elsewhere and the Wiz are left holding the bag).

I'm not sure Milwaukee has buyer's remorse just yet, but certainly could at the end of the year. At this point I'd rather keep our options open, but Monroe for cap space is a decent Plan C if we can't hook bigger fish (my Plan B is still Melo).

I'm sure going from a top 5 defense to a bottom 5 defense in just one year doesn't sit well with that fan base and front office. That's mostly on Monroe. As you say, the Bucks probably aren't at the point where they move Monroe for expirings/cap space yet, but if the defense continues to struggle and the Bucks are out of the playoff picture by the trade deadline they probably won't hesitate to move him.


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[TheSecretWeapon]

Is Monroe part of the problem defensively in Milwaukee? Absolutely -- they're the defensive version of a Grunfeld draft pick when he's on the floor. But their defense when he's off the floor would still rank 28th in the league. Their defensive issues run WAY deeper than Monroe. For his career, Monroe hasn't been an impact player defensively -- good or bad. His teams have generally been about as good defensively when he's on the floor as they have been when he's off. My guess is that as the sample size expands, we'll see something similar in Milwaukee.

[Dat2U]

Monroe has not been the problem for Milwaukee but I've already said that. To blame Monroe for Milwaukee's ills tells me your only looking superficially. It's Khris Middleton who's been complete trash after being a game changing defender on the perimeter last year. It's losing ZaZa & Jared Dudley - two smart and heady players and replacing them in the rotation with the likes of Johnny O'Bryant & Chris Copeland. It's Jabari Parker who was injured last year but has been wretched defensively whenever he's played. It's Greivis Vasquez & Jerryd Bayless who aren't capable of defending anyone, especially Greivis.