Political Roundtable Part XVII

[Pointgod]

New immigration yes I agree the USA is behind the times in a coherent policy. More skilled entrepreneurial, educated and skill related immigrants are needed. This can be a mixture of males, females, couples or families.

It sounds like you agree with Trump's proposed changes to immigration.

But also must included refugees from war torn areas of the world. Those can be carefully vetted and bring in families who can carve out a future in America. Canada brings in 300,000 people a year but the Trump administration wants to bring in 1/2 Canada's total with a country 9 times larger.

It's harder to find 2.7 million skilled immigrants per year than it is to find 300,000.

And let's be realistic about Canada's immigration history. First of all, it's not 300,000 a year. For most of the past 20 years, it's been about 225,000 a year. And about half of those 125,000 of those immigrants are from Britian, the U.S and Western Europe. That's not exactly a culture shock. It barely even counts as immigration. So you are bringing in about 100,000 immigrants from a radically different culture, and about a half of them are East Asian or Indian, who are typically well-educated and are considered "model immigrants" in America too. You are only bringing in about 60,000 a year from Latin America, the Middle East and Africa. Those are the regions where it's very difficult to find high skilled immigrants to fill needs in the economy.

The U.S. is bringing in about 750,000 a year from Latin America, Africa and the Middle East. So spare me the moral posturing.

I mean you don’t even try to hide you obvious bigotry.

[stilldropin20]

your quoting game needs work.

other than that you didn't answer the question at all:

What exactly are the big benefits of massive unskilled immigration?? especially given how all the libs keeps telling me about automation. What's are the big benefits??? Anyone??? can anyone tell me why this is so good???

God your mind can't grasp one thing at a time it is a whirlwind of regurgitated garbage. If the unskilled illegal labor was not in the USA much of farm production would grind to a halt. I'm not even looking at massive uneducated immigration but to legalize the 11 million undocumented labors in America which fill vital roles in the economy.

so now you are worried about the Koch brothers and their massive corporate farms and food production capacity????

Do you not think that they wont find employees?????

But instead of low wages for illegal immigrants, they might have to actually pay (legal) workers a fair wage???? That's a bad thing????


or are you worried about the food supply to the end user? That it will cost more????

Or are you seriously assuming that americans wont eat??? seriously?? you think we wont get food??

Wait...let me help you...this is where you shift to the rising cost of food to poor people and this is where I tell you that poor people have food stamps or other food entitlement programs anyway? Which makes your end game argument about the rising costs of entitlements? So in essence you are actually an american budget hawk??? good to know.

[nate33]

New immigration yes I agree the USA is behind the times in a coherent policy. More skilled entrepreneurial, educated and skill related immigrants are needed. This can be a mixture of males, females, couples or families.

It sounds like you agree with Trump's proposed changes to immigration.

But also must included refugees from war torn areas of the world. Those can be carefully vetted and bring in families who can carve out a future in America. Canada brings in 300,000 people a year but the Trump administration wants to bring in 1/2 Canada's total with a country 9 times larger.

It's harder to find 2.7 million skilled immigrants per year than it is to find 300,000.

And let's be realistic about Canada's immigration history. First of all, it's not 300,000 a year. For most of the past 20 years, it's been about 225,000 a year. And about half of those 125,000 of those immigrants are from Britian, the U.S and Western Europe. That's not exactly a culture shock. It barely even counts as immigration. So you are bringing in about 100,000 immigrants from a radically different culture, and about a half of them are East Asian or Indian, who are typically well-educated and are considered "model immigrants" in America too. You are only bringing in about 60,000 a year from Latin America, the Middle East and Africa. Those are the regions where it's very difficult to find high skilled immigrants to fill needs in the economy.

The U.S. is bringing in about 750,000 a year from Latin America, Africa and the Middle East. So spare me the moral posturing.

I mean you don’t even try to hide you obvious bigotry.

Facts are facts. Any analysis of immigrant performance will show that, on average, those from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America fare worse than those from East Asia, India or Europe. Why is this a controversial thing to say?

[dckingsfan]

BTW, it wouldn't be hard to bring in 1.5M skilled workers a year. If we brought in 1.5M skilled and 1M unskilled we would be fine. It would address growth, it would address sustainability in our government services and would reduce our deficit spending (and not squeeze other spending).

Trump's proposed cuts to legal immigration take us in the wrong direction, IMO.

Your numbers are completely logical just to maintain population without growth those are the approximate numbers needed. Hopefully you include some refugees in those numbers?

I don't see why not - keep it within demographic of what we are looking for and it would seem reasonable.

Where it isn't reasonable, IMO is to either greatly restrict immigration or not to make that immigration beneficial to the US.

The politics are pretty ridiculous... Rs are playing the fear card. Ds aren't pushing for smart immigration (only benefiting the immigrants not the country). I think only the politics are getting us to the right place.

[dckingsfan]

Facts are facts. Any analysis of immigrant performance will show that, on average, those from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America fare worse than those from East Asia, India or Europe. Why is this a controversial thing to say?

Actually, when adjusted for demographics and education - they fair pretty similarly.

[Wizardspride]

lets agree on something shall we?

That the american people deserve to know exactly what happened in this entire election cycle. Everything. all of it!! and criminals (whoEVER they may be) must go to jail. Can we agree on that??

Absolutely.

So with that being said, I assume you're bothered that the GOP vetoed the Dem memo and blocked the DOJ from presenting intelligence?

thats not what happened.

3. it was then reviewed in its entirety by Wray and 2 TOP FISA attorneys for the FBI to edit and facts and themes. there was no edits. i repeat. there was no edits.

So if Wray voiced some objections you would consider them?

[nate33]

Facts are facts. Any analysis of immigrant performance will show that, on average, those from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America fare worse than those from East Asia, India or Europe. Why is this a controversial thing to say?

Actually, when adjusted for demographics and education - they fair pretty similarly.

First of all, reality doesn't "adjust for demographics and education". More East Asians and Indians are educated so of course we're going to get more educated immigrants from that group. Also, you are wrong. 2nd generation Americans of East Asian or Indian descent still fare far better than 2nd generation Americans of Latin American, African or Middle Eastern descent.

[cammac]

It sounds like you agree with Trump's proposed changes to immigration.


It's harder to find 2.7 million skilled immigrants per year than it is to find 300,000.

And let's be realistic about Canada's immigration history. First of all, it's not 300,000 a year. For most of the past 20 years, it's been about 225,000 a year. And about half of those 125,000 of those immigrants are from Britian, the U.S and Western Europe. That's not exactly a culture shock. It barely even counts as immigration. So you are bringing in about 100,000 immigrants from a radically different culture, and about a half of them are East Asian or Indian, who are typically well-educated and are considered "model immigrants" in America too. You are only bringing in about 60,000 a year from Latin America, the Middle East and Africa. Those are the regions where it's very difficult to find high skilled immigrants to fill needs in the economy.

The U.S. is bringing in about 750,000 a year from Latin America, Africa and the Middle East. So spare me the moral posturing.

I mean you don’t even try to hide you obvious bigotry.

Facts are facts. Any analysis of immigrant performance will show that, on average, those from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America fare worse than those from East Asia, India or Europe. Why is this a controversial thing to say?

Sure Nate the surgeon who gave me a triple bypass parents were from the Middle East. We are enrolling a South African friends teen sons in public school in Canada and they will be living with us in the fall.

To quantify people by race is bigoted, racist and frankly idiotic. I lived in China and so many time people would tell me how well they do in school. Yes its true but at least in Canada we get the cream of the crop. From living in multiple countries and visiting many more I know the stupid gene is about equal in every society. Yes some nations have lacked the ability to advance because of post colonialism and subjugating regimes. Your simplistic ALT RIGHT Philosophy doesn't belong.

[stilldropin20]

Absolutely.

So with that being said, I assume you're bothered that the GOP vetoed the Dem memo and blocked the DOJ from presenting intelligence?

thats not what happened.

3. it was then reviewed in its entirety by Wray and 2 TOP FISA attorneys for the FBI to edit and facts and themes. there was no edits. i repeat. there was no edits.

So if Wray voiced some objections you would consider them?

getting back to me 3 days later?

if wray has any concerns about the truth or veracity or facts in the memo then yes.

But if his concerns boil down to "the FBI will look bad." No, I wont consider that. I dont care about the FBI's feelings at this point and I think its despicable that the left has tried to lump the FBI boots in with the FBI suits.

The boots support trump and support the release of this memo. The Obama "suits" are the only ones crying foul along with libs in general and they are using CNN and left wing media to spread their message.

But facts? Truth? veracity? certainly.

[nate33]

I mean you don’t even try to hide you obvious bigotry.

Facts are facts. Any analysis of immigrant performance will show that, on average, those from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America fare worse than those from East Asia, India or Europe. Why is this a controversial thing to say?

Sure Nate the surgeon who gave me a triple bypass parents were from the Middle East. We are enrolling a South African friends teen sons in public school in Canada and they will be living with us in the fall.

To quantify people by race is bigoted, racist and frankly idiotic. I lived in China and so many time people would tell me how well they do in school. Yes its true but at least in Canada we get the cream of the crop. From living in multiple countries and visiting many more I know the stupid gene is about equal in every society. Yes some nations have lacked the ability to advance because of post colonialism and subjugating regimes. Your simplistic ALT RIGHT Philosophy doesn't belong.

In a job interview, you are assessing an individual on his individual talents, achievements and track record. In immigration policy, you are not talking about individuals, you are talking about averages of populations. We have comprehensive data on this. It would be stupid to ignore it.

Furthermore, I'm not talking about quotas based on nation of origin. I'm talking about something like what Canada does, or what Trump proposes: to evaluate people based on their skills, projected employment prospects, age, educational achievement, language , etc. I'm just saying that, If we do that, we will surely end up with more East Asian and Indian immigrants and fewer Latin American/Middle Eastern/African immigrants.

[dckingsfan]

Facts are facts. Any analysis of immigrant performance will show that, on average, those from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America fare worse than those from East Asia, India or Europe. Why is this a controversial thing to say?

Actually, when adjusted for demographics and education - they fair pretty similarly.

First of all, reality doesn't "adjust for demographics and education". More East Asians and Indians are educated so of course we're going to get more educated immigrants from that group. Also, you are wrong. 2nd generation Americans of East Asian or Indian descent still fare far better than 2nd generation Americans of Latin American, African or Middle Eastern descent.

The problem is there are no studies that adjust for education and demographics for 2nd generation Americans. So, there is that. But for first generation Americans with similar education and demographics - the success rates are similar. And although, east Asians and Indians had better success. The net benefits to the country for both groups were outstanding.

So, if your argument is that educated first generation Indians and Asians is better - I will concede the point.

But, the real point is that educated workers from all the groups had a very positive net effect. So, pull in 1M plus educated workers from all over the place would be our best play - by far.

[cammac]

Facts are facts. Any analysis of immigrant performance will show that, on average, those from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America fare worse than those from East Asia, India or Europe. Why is this a controversial thing to say?

Sure Nate the surgeon who gave me a triple bypass parents were from the Middle East. We are enrolling a South African friends teen sons in public school in Canada and they will be living with us in the fall.

To quantify people by race is bigoted, racist and frankly idiotic. I lived in China and so many time people would tell me how well they do in school. Yes its true but at least in Canada we get the cream of the crop. From living in multiple countries and visiting many more I know the stupid gene is about equal in every society. Yes some nations have lacked the ability to advance because of post colonialism and subjugating regimes. Your simplistic ALT RIGHT Philosophy doesn't belong.

In a job interview, you are assessing an individual on his individual talents, achievements and track record. In immigration policy, you are not talking about individuals, you are talking about averages of populations. We have comprehensive data on this. It would be stupid to ignore it.

My Surgeons father was a janitor and he is one of the best cardiac surgeons in Canada. Potential can come from the most humble beginnings and opportunity and intellectual brilliance crosses every racial and ethnic society.

[nate33]

Actually, when adjusted for demographics and education - they fair pretty similarly.

First of all, reality doesn't "adjust for demographics and education". More East Asians and Indians are educated so of course we're going to get more educated immigrants from that group. Also, you are wrong. 2nd generation Americans of East Asian or Indian descent still fare far better than 2nd generation Americans of Latin American, African or Middle Eastern descent.

The problem is there are no studies that adjust for education and demographics for 2nd generation Americans. So, there is that. But for first generation Americans with similar education and demographics - the success rates are similar. And although, east Asians and Indians had better success. The net benefits to the country for both groups were outstanding.

So, if your argument is that educated first generation Indians and Asians is better - I will concede the point.

But, the real point is that educated workers from all the groups had a very positive net effect. So, pull in 1M plus educated workers from all over the place would be our best play - by far.

Given the responses from you and cammac, it appears that I didn't explain myself well

I propose a merit-based immigration system. The things we would be looking for are education, youth, lack of criminal history, ability to speak English and job prospects already lined up. If we enacted such a policy, as Canada does, we would surely end up with more immigrants from Europe, East Asia and India, and fewer from Latin America, the Middle East, and Africa.

So when cammac brags about the success of Canada's immigration program, and I see that the majority of the immigrants are from Europe and East Asia, I'm not going to sit here and commend them for their generosity and devotion to diversity. I will merely remark that they have a rational immigration policy. We should too.

[nate33]

Sure Nate the surgeon who gave me a triple bypass parents were from the Middle East. We are enrolling a South African friends teen sons in public school in Canada and they will be living with us in the fall.

To quantify people by race is bigoted, racist and frankly idiotic. I lived in China and so many time people would tell me how well they do in school. Yes its true but at least in Canada we get the cream of the crop. From living in multiple countries and visiting many more I know the stupid gene is about equal in every society. Yes some nations have lacked the ability to advance because of post colonialism and subjugating regimes. Your simplistic ALT RIGHT Philosophy doesn't belong.

In a job interview, you are assessing an individual on his individual talents, achievements and track record. In immigration policy, you are not talking about individuals, you are talking about averages of populations. We have comprehensive data on this. It would be stupid to ignore it.

My Surgeons father was a janitor and he is one of the best cardiac surgeons in Canada. Potential can come from the most humble beginnings and opportunity and intellectual brilliance crosses every racial and ethnic society.

Anecdotes are meaningless when we are discussing large populations. Statistics matter.

[cammac]

In a job interview, you are assessing an individual on his individual talents, achievements and track record. In immigration policy, you are not talking about individuals, you are talking about averages of populations. We have comprehensive data on this. It would be stupid to ignore it.

My Surgeons father was a janitor and he is one of the best cardiac surgeons in Canada. Potential can come from the most humble beginnings and opportunity and intellectual brilliance crosses every racial and ethnic society.

Anecdotes are meaningless when we are discussing large populations. Statistics matter.

Statistics are meaningless unless underlying factors are taken into consideration. You can use statistical analysis to prove almost anything. It depends true empiric data not crafted data to prove a point. In your earlier racial tirades you used statistical analysis to prove the undefendable. I've always wondered about your love of basketball which is dominated by black men?

[cammac]

Nunes memo 4 pages a partisan blathering!

FIRST AMENDMENT Blog Stream Groups Following Profile
FBI Director Wray Opposes Nunes Memo Release. Says It’s Inaccurate & Paints False Narrative

By First Amendment
Wednesday Jan 31, 2018 · 12:11 PM EST
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Keep in mind, this was Trump’s pick for FBI Director and he’s telling the White House that the Nunes memo is inaccurate and paints a false narrative of the FBI and DOJ.

FBI Director Christopher Wray told the White House he opposes release of a classified Republican memo alleging bias at the FBI and Justice Department because it contains inaccurate information and paints a false narrative, according to a person familiar with the matter.

The memo on actions early in the probe of Russian meddling in the 2016 campaign is being reviewed by “our national security lawyers in the White House,” who are “slicing and dicing it,” White House Chief of Staff John Kelly said Wednesday on Fox News Radio. But he left little doubt about the outcome, saying the disputed memo will be released “pretty quick, I think, and the whole world can see it.”

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/31/1737553/-FBI-Director-Wray-Opposes-Nunes-Memo-Release-Says-It-s-Inaccurate-Paints-False-Narrative

[Wizardspride]

thats not what happened.

3. it was then reviewed in its entirety by Wray and 2 TOP FISA attorneys for the FBI to edit and facts and themes. there was no edits. i repeat. there was no edits.

So if Wray voiced some objections you would consider them?

getting back to me 3 days later?

if wray has any concerns about the truth or veracity or facts in the memo then yes.

But if his concerns boil down to "the FBI will look bad." No, I wont consider that. I dont care about the FBI's feelings at this point and I think its despicable that the left has tried to lump the FBI boots in with the FBI suits.

The boots support trump and support the release of this memo. The Obama "suits" are the only ones crying foul along with libs in general and they are using CNN and left wing media to spread their message.

But facts? Truth? veracity? certainly.

Actually I responded to you within minutes. You just never responded back to me.

Anyway, I just wanted to know how you felt in light of recent events

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[nate33]

My Surgeons father was a janitor and he is one of the best cardiac surgeons in Canada. Potential can come from the most humble beginnings and opportunity and intellectual brilliance crosses every racial and ethnic society.

Anecdotes are meaningless when we are discussing large populations. Statistics matter.

Statistics are meaningless unless underlying factors are taken into consideration. You can use statistical analysis to prove almost anything. It depends true empiric data not crafted data to prove a point. In your earlier racial tirades you used statistical analysis to prove the undefendable. I've always wondered about your love of basketball which is dominated by black men?

Is it your contention that anecdotal evidence based on an encounter with one immigrant doctor is a more useful tool for analysis than statistical measurements of income and educational attainment for entire immigrant groups? Is that really where you want to take this conversation?

And I don't see why my observation that third world immigrant groups tend to perform worse (economically speaking) than European and East Asian immigrant groups has any bearing on my enjoyment of the sport of basketball. Everyone on this board seems to conclude that I hate all people of non-European descent or something. I don't love or hate anyone based on their country of origin. I evaluate individuals based on my interaction with that individual. But that doesn't blind me of certain statistical realities of large population groups.

[gtn130]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Obvious answer is that Wray, a Trump appointee, is actually a secret Democrat and part of the Shadow Presidency of Hillary Clinton.

It's a shame Trump is so wildly incompetent that he keeps accidentally appointing all these Democrats

[stilldropin20]

So if Wray voiced some objections you would consider them?

getting back to me 3 days later?

if wray has any concerns about the truth or veracity or facts in the memo then yes.

But if his concerns boil down to "the FBI will look bad." No, I wont consider that. I dont care about the FBI's feelings at this point and I think its despicable that the left has tried to lump the FBI boots in with the FBI suits.

The boots support trump and support the release of this memo. The Obama "suits" are the only ones crying foul along with libs in general and they are using CNN and left wing media to spread their message.

But facts? Truth? veracity? certainly.

Actually I responded to you within minutes. You just never responded back to me.

Anyway, I just wanted to know how you felt in light of recent events

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

fair enough, i just want Wray to put his name on that statement. Unnamed sources from what could be nothing more than Obama holdovers wont do it for me nor the american public.

and frankly...at this point. Dont you want full transparency? I want to Nunez memo to come out. The schiff memo. I want the FBI to have their say. Mueller to have his. The IG. Everyone.

because what happened is a disgrace, isn't it? Let's be honest for a second. Everyone knows trump didn't collude with Russia. There's no russia deals. Russia is gaining no favors. And Trump inc. would have to be run by the biggest idiots on planet earth for them to do any kind of deal that involves russian money however distant. and if they do it will indeed come out.

So at best what we have is "opposition research" taken to the level of slight FBI surveillance. Its clear as day this occurred. I dont think this is a good thing. At worst we have a completely weaponized DOJ at the top doing HRC's dirty work for her to rig an election. Both the best case and worst case is NOT good. Imagine if trump does the same thing in 2020 or 2024? Would you not be pissed???

Full and entire disclosure is necessary at this point. If investigation and charges come of it? so be it. point the fingers. let the chips fall where they may.