Political Roundtable Part XXXIII

[AFM]

The ones that come here and succeed like your parents (and my parents) are the outliers though. That's why they come here. The truth is most people aren't driven like that, or sometimes are just plain incapable. How are you going to identify someone having been dealt a bad hand vs being lazy? Practically every poor black person in this country was dealt a bad hand. Would you like to grow up in the housing projects with no father? No functioning education system? I wouldn't. People are products of their environment and their parents.

[AFM]

I guess my point is I'm only successful because I'm a hard worker and I'm only a hard worker because I was raised by parents who instilled that belief in me when I was young.

What about those that weren't raised like that? Just F them, right? Because they're lazy.

It's not their fault they were raised like that, or not raised at all.

Actually you and I are the priveleged ones, because we were raised by immigrant parents that taught us to be this way.

If you grew up in the housing project, guess what, you would end up "lazy" as well.

[doclinkin]

Most employers have health insurance plans; every company I ever worked for has, and most things are pretty much covered.

Employers are required to offer health care because Obama made it a law. Before the ACA this was not the case. Republicans have made it clear they want to eliminate this. (Though the system was based on Romneycare in Massachusetts, after their republican governor who implemented it). Yet your original post suggests democrats and all simply want people to get everything for free. It may be problematic but it does mean that people with jobs will have health care. This gives incentive for everyone to get a job.

Without the law requiring it, do you think large employers would offer health care? As a long time Union rep I guarantee you they would not. Before Obamacare, health insurance was one of the issues on the table every time we sat down to negotiate the contract.

The law forced employers to offer this free handout, since it is for the betterment of society that we don't have uninsured people dying of preventable or curable illnesses.

What is society for? Why have government or civilization at all? Are any taxes reasonable?

You quote deuteronomy in your sig. I've got one for you: "Render under Caesar that which is Ceasars". Jesus was asked if Jews should pay roman taxes. This was his answer. Taxes that did in fact fund public health, hospitals, public baths, aqueducts and sewage systems. Your mom squatted over a hole, but here we do not have to because we have a public system that makes illegal to have conditions that would allow that. Taxes support public sewage system, codes require proper facilities and are enforced by government agencies.

Nobody wants everything for free. Back in the day the Democratic Gov of New York Mario Cuomo said "yes we should not have more government than we need, but we should absolutely insist on having as much government as we need". That's the only difference between the Left and the Repugnicans. The Left believes we should fund the words of the constitution,

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."

Meaning, put your money where your mouth is: if you believe in this country, that it exists for a reason, then it should be funded. We need courts and officers of the law to ensure everyone gets the same justice regardless of income. Kings are not better than citizens, just luckier. That we should have peace and be able to protect that peace. From armies or pandemics alike. That a government should strive to provide health comfort and security for all its People, the definition of welfare. And that none should be shackled by oppressive regime that encroaches on your personal freedom to believe what your faith and heart tell you. That you should be able to speak your mind. Make your own choices.

So taxes exist to ensure we have as much government as needed to provide the above. True. Some people, by whatever misfortune, are going to need more government than others. Kids require education. You might never need a fireman or police officer in your life. If I don't have a car I don't need the Highway system or traffic lights. If I am healthy I won't need hospitals.

A baby has no choice being born. It doesn't get to decide what country it landed in. What skin color. What language. What parents, whether advantaged or not. It relies on wiser stronger caring adults to ensure it has every opportunity. We know this in a family: the stronger ones work so the littlest ones can grow until they are able. If a baby was born disabled, the family will care for it in every way necessary. Most immigrant communities in the US understand this. 'Aunties' and 'Uncles' make life easier for newcomers even if they are not direct kin. Help them find jobs and housing etc. Share information and teach them the ways of life. In this way their community grows stronger.

Why should a country be less honorable? The strong and fortunate should willingly support the country that made it possible for them to grow prosperous. Yes they can afford the lawyers that find the loopholes so they don't have to. They can afford the lobbyists or outright buy politicians to create laws that benefit them. The laws that built this country used to prevent rich people from growing too rich to be governed. In the 1950's under the government that build our federal highway system and science programs and the earliest internet, millionaires were taxed on a dollar for dollar basis. That money was used to fund science and public education and our defense systems.

Now we have a trillionaire who has bought a presidency. And a 'news' corporation devoted to telling americans to hate other americans for being poor enough to need help. You never want to need health insurance, or a public health system. But if you do, aren't you glad it is there? Likewise should a young widow let her kids starve to death because her husband died in a car crash? Should old people just rot on a couch and be kicked out into the street because they are no longer young enough to hold a job?

The point of civilization is that we band together for the common good. Otherwise we have barbarism. 'I got mine so f off and die'. Which system is more worthy? If you are proud to be here and part of this country, you should be proud of what built it. The system that made it possible for your immigrant parents to raise and educate you and protect and provide for you in ways that they couldn't in India at the time. Because there is a system here that made it possible. But that system was made possible by taxes. And regulations.

Now, corporations and billionaires can re-write the rules to their benefit, and more and more people are being told to f off and die. That shareholders are more important than citizens. I dunno man. Nobody likes seeing a chunk of money taken out of their paycheck. But shouldn't the top wage earners pay more than the little guy? You say student debt holders only are paying for cable bills etc. I call BS on that, since many of the millennial I know had to move back to their parents houses until their 30's when eventually enough of their debt was paid off that they could afford apartments. Me I was able to pay mine off back in the day. But the cost of education began to balloon swiftly in the years since I graduated. Banks have regulations preventing predatory lending, but a young dude graduating with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt will be an indentured servant to those same banks for decades before their loans are paid off. If there was a reset button on that ballooned debt, if those 30 year olds all sharing a room with 3 roommates had a little extra $$ to fund some of their daydreams, I fully expect we would have an infusion of new businesses and good ideas like back in my day with the dotcom boom. When government actually had a surplus for the first time ever. Before it was pi55ed away in a pointless 30 year war.

The Left just says we want a bit more justice in our system. Make the system work for We the People, not for Big Business alone. E. Pluribus Unum. From many, one. We are a United states because of all of us, and all of us deserve the equal protection of a baseline bare minimum. Food. Shelter. Health care. Education. And the freedom to make our own choices with our own lives so long as it is nobody else's business. Otherwise why have government at all, man.

[AFM]

That was an amazing post doc. Meanwhile I look like an idiot triple posting but I swear he replied to my post and then deleted it.

[doclinkin]

Nah, you were just saying what I was saying. As usual mine just had a lot more words.

[pancakes3]

i am also a child of immigrants, and we lived in a 2BR apartment with another family for the first 3 years we were here. my mom babysat my classmates after school to make some cash. my classmates' parents would pack them snacks for after school, and i got yelled at on day 1 for grabbing a pack of their snacks - those were THEIR snacks, I could wait until after dinner. my dad would take me with him when he went to tutor high school and college students for a side hustle because my mom was in school trying to start her second career.

i asked my parents to put me in the free lunch program because i was bullied for bringing rice in for lunch.

i wore clothes exclusively from the Church donation bin, or goodwill until 7th grade. My first pair of athletic shorts were pink, because that's all they had at the thrift store that fit me. Nobody at the park let me hoop with them. I cried to my parents, and my dad, in a masterclass of gaslighting, told me through clenched teeth, that it wasn't because of the shorts, because the shorts are red.

i was the only kid who needed ESL services in my entire elementary school, and they didn't have an ESL teacher so I learned English from a speech therapist who was mainly there to help kids who couldn't pronounce their r's correctly.

there were 2 classrooms per grade in my elementary school, a dumb track and a smart track. i was in the dumb track classroom for one year, where it was exclusively black and brown kids. after my first year, i lived in the public library, and taught myself english thanks to library resources and watching an unhealthy amount of gilligan's island reruns. the next year, i was in the dumb track classroom for exactly 2 weeks before they moved me to the smart track, where the white kids were. my black and brown friends called me a sellout and started to bully me pretty hard. my parents got called in when i used a slur against them that I had read in Huck Finn. the teacher didn't believe me when i told her that's where i learned it, until i pulled the book out of my backpack and showed her.

the smart class and the dumb class played on opposite ends of the blacktop, and neither side let me hoop with them for about a semester.

I have a thousand more stories of growing up poor, both here in the US and in my native country. both my parents grew up in houses with dirt floors and no indoor plumbing. i've lived in houses with no indoor plumbing, and it was easier and more bearable to piss out the front door into the sewer drain. i've lived in houses where you needed to pump your own water from the community well. better boil it before you use it. to kill the worms.

i refuse to believe that any of these experiences were necessary. it was not necessary for me to wear pink shorts to make me appreciate hard work. nor was it necessary for my father made to feel like he was a failure as a provider, and grapple with whether the shorts were pink or red, so he can reconcile his failures with the reality of the situation.

the macro view is that for thousands of years, we have lived in a deeply inequitable society, and only in the last few centuries, has the world collectively pulled itself towards equality through a global push towards democracy. it is only because we have elevated the poors in society that each new generation has a better and better chance at achieving their full potential. one of my best friends from college is the heir to a billionaire fortune and if we were not born in the 20th century, the two of us would have never met unless it was in a Dickens novel.

all of that aside, to say, trauma is not necessary. whatever cards life deals us, we have the power, as a community, as a society, to help those around us. the callous disregard to be able to tell CCJ, who as far as I can tell in my 20+ years posting here, is a man deserving of love and compassion, that he is not worthy of love and compassion is disgusting. then to wrap that cruel assertion around the struggles of your parents and grandparents as a badge of honor is equally disrespectful.

[daoneandonly]

The ones that come here and succeed like your parents (and my parents) are the outliers though. That's why they come here. The truth is most people aren't driven like that, or sometimes are just plain incapable. How are you going to identify someone having been dealt a bad hand vs being lazy? Practically every poor black person in this country was dealt a bad hand. Would you like to grow up in the housing projects with no father? No functioning education system? I wouldn't. People are products of their environment and their parents.

See I refuse to believe that, respectfully AFM. As I mentioned, while raised in America, it was within an Indian community where the vast majority of them came with the same struggles and lack, and after years and years, were able to achieve that American dream. We didn't have the cool clothes my peers had; many times, my brothers' hand-me-downs. Didnt have the car to drive to school, school activities/clubs, or cable TV for many years; they sacrificed where we needed to sacrifice and made sure we had the essentials.

Today, we have people crying about their student loans, thinking they are owed a clean slate, yet have multiple streaming subscriptions, take several vacations a year, and go out to every happy hour they get invited to. That's okay with you all?

People in the 24%, 32, 35, etc. tax brackets get so much taken out of their paychecks yet still owe taxes after filing, while the lower bands don't get nearly as much taken out and then get refunds. But they still want more, still think they're owed more? I don't see how that is remotely fair.

[daoneandonly]

Doc, that's quite the post; a bit too verbose for me to really read through since I'm sure we may be on opposite sides on most things. But I can respect you taking the time to respond and express your views nonetheless

I noticed you mentioned not having a choice in what color or circumstance they're born into. True, but we can, of course, go to the argument that the baby didnt ask to be conceived in the first place, and what right does the mother have to terminate their life? Isn't that also a fair argument here when it comes to liberal vs conservative viewpoints?

I do appreciate your Bible reference as it was a great story of how Jesus knew exactly what to say as the Pharisees tried to trap Him. I'm nowhere near as smart as He is, so I can't even try. But, as I pointed out in the post above, taxes arent fair, even remotely. I do pay them, begrudgingly, but I essentially do give to Cesar (or in this case the Feds and the corrupt Wes Moore/Aruna Miller) what they deem is there's. We pay a heavy chunk every two weeks in taxes, and still somehow owed several thousands after filing, all of which was paid. Now I get a letter from Moore's underlings that there is an "interest of underpayment estimated tax" amount that I owe. What is this garbage? So essentially if you owe money in taxes that you already more than most people, you get the luxury of paying interest on it? For what?

I'm glad our taxes pay for the police; they protect our streets and society. My kids don't go to public school, but I'm okay with taxes for the education system, within reason. But there are plenty of areas where tax dollars are going to that dont help the majority of people that are funding it, and that's a problem to me.

Pancake, never once said CCJ wasnt worthy of compassion. Every life is, though I have a hard time extending that courtesy to murderers, rapists, and other criminals. I was reacting to his comment essentially wishing homelessness on another person. I don't wish that on anyone, but I am also aware that there are folks out there who have opportunities and chances to better their circumstances that simply refuse to do so, and other people's tax dollars shouldn't be spent so willingly on them.

[dobrojim]

I don't understand this pathetic thirst for attention Trump supporters have. "Look at me! I'm flinging poop! Look at me!"

Actually I'm not A Trump supporter,I'm a US supporter
I didn't vote for him in the primaries (democrats don't even know what primaries are) but since Trump won it was an easy choice for president,77,000,000 + other voters said the same thing

Hey Bonscott, first & foremost, happy new year! Not that you asked, but if I could offer any advice, don't waste your knowledge, character, and time on this far-left board. The vast majority just want freebies at the higher earner's expense. They run when they see the word accountability. Hence their support for student loan wipeout, lessening prison times, universal healthcare, legalizing all drugs, and abortion. I mean, why own up to one's own responsibilities when someone else can cover it for you or make it go away, right?

Rather than create some list of things that piss you off and simply describe them as ways in which your political
opposites 'run from responsibility', why don't you carefully and in detail, as if we are as stupid as you seem to think,
tell us why these things we want are all terrible and are poor societal choices.

Start with one or more of :

lessening prison time
student loan forgiveness
universal health care
legalizing drugs

Since these things pour out of your posts so easily, this ought to be as simple as making cake
from a mix.

Describe how being in prison for longer is better.
Describe how so many other countries that provide free higher education suffer from that decision.
Describe why having a health care system that doesn't discriminate of the basis ability to pay for basic services suffers.
Describe how countries that lock up drug users benefit from that approach.

And bring your receipts as you make your arguments!

In the meantime, to my many friends, particularly Doc, 'cakes and CCJ (but many others too)
who teach me so much in our discussions, thank you.

[dobrojim]

PS -

Da1, you seem really angry about many of your fellow citizens.

And it's hard to be happy when you are angry.

I suggest that you will feel better and probably live longer if you thought more
about being grateful for what you have as opposed to judgmental about the
choices other people make, particularly when you have limited power in this
'free society' to impose your personal choices on them.

Watch on YouTube

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Imagine telling a homeless guy to be grateful because in your country there are no toilets.

Even our homeless are relatively well off.

Most are surrounded by people who will hand them bottled water or by them a food item. Many have substance and/or mental health issues for which assistance is available if they allow themselves to be assisted.

I can imagine AFM. I once didn't have much, but when he gave a lady $5 dollars she said, "Have you got twenty dollars?

Ungrateful.

[dobrojim]

to the modestly wealthy, a $20 is like a dollar. It has virtually no impact on their financial situation.
To the slightly wealthier, a hundred has no impact. To Elon Musk, a $1M bitcoin has no impact.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The ones that come here and succeed like your parents (and my parents) are the outliers though. That's why they come here. The truth is most people aren't driven like that, or sometimes are just plain incapable. How are you going to identify someone having been dealt a bad hand vs being lazy? Practically every poor black person in this country was dealt a bad hand. Would you like to grow up in the housing projects with no father? No functioning education system? I wouldn't. People are products of their environment and their parents.

When I taught middle schoolers in Phenix City, AL, I saw first hand.

Black fathers were absent.

People are definitely products of their environment.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Deleted

TMI

Happy New Year!

[closg00]

100% Proof that President Musk is calling the shots, seriously, WTF is this sh. it

Read on Twitter

[dobrojim]

And the righties got all butt hurt when the discussions during the campaign used language
that accurately conveyed what was being talked about.

[Fairview4Life]

We pay a heavy chunk every two weeks in taxes, and still somehow owed several thousands after filing, all of which was paid. Now I get a letter from Moore's underlings that there is an "interest of underpayment estimated tax" amount that I owe. What is this garbage? So essentially if you owe money in taxes that you already more than most people, you get the luxury of paying interest on it?

If you don’t pay your tax bill you will be charged interest on it. The government does not seem to believe “all of which was paid”. If they’re right, pay your taxes. If they aren’t, challenge it.

For what?

This stuff:

I'm glad our taxes pay for the police; they protect our streets and society. My kids don't go to public school, but I'm okay with taxes for the education system, within reason.

[daoneandonly]

Actually I'm not A Trump supporter,I'm a US supporter
I didn't vote for him in the primaries (democrats don't even know what primaries are) but since Trump won it was an easy choice for president,77,000,000 + other voters said the same thing

Hey Bonscott, first & foremost, happy new year! Not that you asked, but if I could offer any advice, don't waste your knowledge, character, and time on this far-left board. The vast majority just want freebies at the higher earner's expense. They run when they see the word accountability. Hence their support for student loan wipeout, lessening prison times, universal healthcare, legalizing all drugs, and abortion. I mean, why own up to one's own responsibilities when someone else can cover it for you or make it go away, right?

Rather than create some list of things that piss you off and simply describe them as ways in which your political
opposites 'run from responsibility', why don't you carefully and in detail, as if we are as stupid as you seem to think,
tell us why these things we want are all terrible and are poor societal choices.

Start with one or more of :

lessening prison time
student loan forgiveness
universal health care
legalizing drugs

Since these things pour out of your posts so easily, this ought to be as simple as making cake
from a mix.

Describe how being in prison for longer is better.
Describe how so many other countries that provide free higher education suffer from that decision.
Describe why having a health care system that doesn't discriminate of the basis ability to pay for basic services suffers.
Describe how countries that lock up drug users benefit from that approach.

And bring your receipts as you make your arguments!

In the meantime, to my many friends, particularly Doc, 'cakes and CCJ (but many others too)
who teach me so much in our discussions, thank you.

I'll try to answer as respectfully and coherently as I am able:

Describe how being in prison for longer is better. - I don't see how this one is a question. We as a society are safer if people who commit crimes are no longer out and about to commit said crimes again. The guy who pulled a gun on and ran after my dad through the streets of DC, the one who threw my aunt down to steal her purse, the two different women on separate occasions who tried to break into my car while at a red light, the person(s) who shattered my dad's car back window to steal something from his car, the gang who jumped my friends after they were going to their dorm after a Bible study, the list goes on. I'm sure none of these instances were these criminals' first or last offense; imagine if they were in prison instead of free. My family and I would have been a lot safer if these folks were in prison. And that's just personal anecdotes, imagine all the people who fall victimor even lost loved ones to criminals who either never got caught, sentenced, or got light punishments. You mentioned me being angry, and yes you're right. Experiences like these have created bitterness in me

Describe why having a health care system that doesn't discriminate of the basis ability to pay for basic services suffers. - I feel like I explained this in the previous post. Its much harder to get appointments and procedures scheduled and done in countries with this approach. Not to mention how completely unfair it is. Stands to reason taxes will go up to support such a measure, so how is it fair that people who pay much more in taxes (the latter brackets) get the same service as those that pay much less? It's essentially higher brackets footing the bill and getting worse care for the pleasure.

I'm in the IT field, where lets be honest, higher education is overrated and to a certain extent, useless. My Masters degree is just as valuable as a colleague's associates. One is not better than the other, we're on even paying fields with our grades. But again, for people whose kids are already past dependent age or never had kids, why should they pay for someone else's "higher" education? Same with respect to student loan debts. What about those who sacrificed to pay off their debts in full already? How is it fair to them?

[Zonkerbl]

Putting people in jail is why there are so many fatherless kids. Throwing all the black people you can get your hands on in jail makes the problems you describe worse.

[daoneandonly]

Not once was race brought up in that post. Criminals come in all colors and should be treated the same. All the ones I described spanned multiple races and both genders