Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

[I_Like_Dirt]

Rui Hachimura?

Not that I mean that Rui is cynically "pulling the mental health card". But he is an example of a guy who is missing games for a mental health issue and still getting paid.

What Simmons seems to be doing is outrageous and contemptable. He is just trying to find a way to get paid without having to play, so he is fabricating a mental health issue where one doesn't exist.

Really, Nate. The man is going through a major career crisis with his bosses, teammates, fans, media, etc. publicly weighing in on who he is and is not and you refuse to even consider that he might be dealing with mental health issues. Really?

Making a series of bad decisions and then having to face the consequences of them is not a mental health issue.

Beyond all the potential complications of how stress and depression can work, not all the bad decisions were his.

He got a new boss who immediately and publicly tried to get rid of him and who has made it very clear through the whole process that he doesn't care about Simmons beyond waiting for an opportunity to get rid of him to advance his own personal position. A manager and star colleague who publicly called him out after his workplace underachieved and a bunch of onlookers right there telling him how good he has it and to suck it up and be grateful. And that's the sanitized version of it without knowing any of the behind the scenes stuff.

Simmons certainly deserves his share of the blame but Morey is the one in charge here. He's done nothing to try to resolve the situation positively beyond leaking his complaints through the press. He's the one responsible for managing the work environment. From the sounds of it he's even turned down reasonable trade offers that represent solutions to the issue at hand because he's intent on trying to rip off a team in trade and is willing to let this continue indefinitely until he has that chance. He also has an increasingly long track record of issues with personnel management and at best misunderstanding mental health and clearly hasn't learned along the way or doesn't care.

Look what the Wizards did moving Westbrook. Improved the team while getting Westbrook where he wanted to go. Imagine if they'd held out until they had a superstar and made everything public about how they were displeased with Westbrook and how they were trying to trade him but not accepting role players. Different players and circumstances but Morey is still being more than a little ridiculous here. He's being paid millions of dollars to handle situations like this and instead he's abdicating responsibility unless some other person who does the same job for a different team is willing to do it for him.

[badinage]

From Genius.com —

“Crazy Baldheads actually refers to white supremacists as well, including the KKK & other racist organizations that control western society. Skinheads, racists, and white devils.”

[Kanyewest]

While it's true that Ben Simmons could be going through mental health issues, I can't ignore the possibility that he's fabricating it. For instance, if he's just upset with the team, claiming mental health could allow him the opportunity to collect paychecks. Him being unwilling to meet teammates this offseason also seems a bit off.

Although one can't also ignore the possibility that Simmons is actually going through something. He hasn't taken a shot in the 4th quarter through games 5-7 in that series against the Hawks. Philadelphia may be the worst town to play in when you do that other than maybe NYC or LA.

[DCZards]

While it's true that Ben Simmons could be going through mental health issues, I can't ignore the possibility that he's fabricating it. For instance, if he's just upset with the team, claiming mental health could allow him the opportunity to collect paychecks. Him being unwilling to meet teammates this offseason also seems a bit off.

Although one can't also ignore the possibility that Simmons is actually going through something. He hasn't taken a shot in the 4th quarter through games 5-7 in that series against the Hawks. Philadelphia may be the worst town to play in when you do that other than maybe NYC or LA.

It's no doubt true that Simmons could be fabricating the mental health issues. It is also true that he could be dealing with some serious mental health issues.

That's why I think the prudent (and decent) thing to do is not play wannabe mental health expert as some here seem intent on doing.

[doclinkin]

What Simmons seems to be doing is outrageous and contemptable. He is just trying to find a way to get paid without having to play, so he is fabricating a mental health issue where one doesn't exist.

I have no problem imagining his heart really isn't in being a basketball player right now or reporting to work in what is clearly a hostile work environment. I don't think he is fabricating a mental health issue at all.

Consider who we are talking about. Simmons is a guy who came up small on the biggest stage of his career, refusing to shoot and missing free throws. For most players free throws are less about mechanics and more about focus. They are one of the purest examples of being mentally clutch. Here is a player who was scared to shoot because he did not want to be put in the position of failing his team at the free throw line. Here he had the yips, progressively worse ability to shoot in clutch moments.

Then his immediate boss cast doubt on his mentality. His co-workers publicly shamed him, or leastways refused to offer support. Management is looking for opportunities to ship him out. His greatest strength as a ball player has been his mental ability, the talent to play PG when his body is PF sized. Advanced perception and sensitivity to the moment. If he is distracted and depressed and passing to the people who caused him to feel that way, he will be triggered every trip up the court. That's not a recipe for a PG to be thinking a few steps ahead of everyone as he usually is.

Consider too that his mental state is now subject to public analysis. His entire character is on trial. And this ain't Oklahoma City. He is playing in Philadelphia. This is a City that takes pride in tearing people down. Cheering for injuries, throwing batteries at Santa Claus. It is as much a cliche as Cleveland's river catching on fire, and it is true.

I have zero doubt that Simmons is depressed. Yes he earns millions of dollars to play the game. If he didn't it would be easy to walk away and say f--- this, I don't need this job. But one of the key causes of depression is to be stuck and feeling helpless to change your situation. Chemical depression is a real thing. He has tried everything he could do to escape a situation where he is unwelcome and lampooned and instead his problems have magnified and become even more public, with even worse opinions about him being formed. Frankly as a human being, and not a sports fan, I am concerned for the guy and feel for him. It doesn't matter that some of his actions put him deeper into this position. That tends to happen when you are upset and not thinking right. I expect he will be traded and some part of this will work itself out. I also expect the rest of his career will be tainted and he will be dogged by these questions.

Even if you are predisposed to dislike the guy, ask yourself, even before all this, did you think of Ben Simmons as 'mentally strong'? If no, then why doubt that now he is going through a crisis that he feels unequipped to handle. (Understanding that Mental health is not a matter of strong or weak. My single mom graduated with a masters degree despite having 3 kids that were under the age of 7 when she was in school. She bought 3 houses in my lifetime. She also was hospitalized for depression a few times in my life before she got the right medication).

Still if you perceive of Simmons as being mentally weak, then you are likely picking up that this a guy who is vulnerable to outside influences. Here he likely feels like he is hated by the people who used to be his fans, allies, teammates and supporters. Damn straight he doesn't want to show up. I don't think he is fabricating that at all. That's simply self-evident.

[nate33]

For what it's worth, I'm only guessing at Simmons' motivations based on his pattern of behavior. Sure, if he has legitimate mental health issues and is seeking professional help, he should be accommodated. I'm just saying I'm skeptical. If he had legitimate mental health issues, he would have approached the Sixers about first. Instead, he skipped training camp while expecting to get paid, and then when he didn't get paid, he showed up to one practice and dogged it; and when that didn't work, he started talking about mental health.

I'm not arguing that mental health issues among NBA players aren't real. I'm totally sympathetic to Hachimura's situation, for example.

[I_Like_Dirt]

For what it's worth, I'm only guessing at Simmons' motivations based on his pattern of behavior. Sure, if he has legitimate mental health issues and is seeking professional help, he should be accommodated. I'm just saying I'm skeptical. If he had legitimate mental health issues, he would have approached the Sixers about first. Instead, he skipped training camp while expecting to get paid, and then when he didn't get paid, he showed up to one practice and dogged it; and when that didn't work, he started talking about mental health.

I'm not arguing that mental health issues among NBA players aren't real. I'm totally sympathetic to Hachimura's situation, for example.

Here's the thing, though. Simmons doesn't really have a pattern of behavior. This is a first and we're all just guessing.

The guy who does have a pattern of behavior is Morey. He used a lottery pick on Royce White and then went to work leaking everything to paint himself as not at fault. I don't think he was at fault so to speak but he certainly proved himself either oblivious or completely insensitive to the issues at hand.

He traded a pick to deal with Ty Lawson's alcoholism.

If any GM should have picked up the importance of mental health along the way, it's him, and yet the fact that he keeps falling into these issues far more frequently than most suggests he doesn’t concern himself with it and is then surprised when it turns out to be an issue.

He's also had chemistry issues loads of times, from Dwight to Kyle Lowry to Harden/Paul, he's been great for the analytics side of basketball but he's left the rest of it behind and it bites him repeatedly.

And honestly, even with analytics, he mostly just chases superstars. The Raptors had Kawhi and some lesser stars in Siakam, Lowry and Gasol and won a championship. Ths Bucks had/have Giannis and some lesser stars in Middleton and Jrue and won a championship. Other teams use analytics just as well as he does if not better and they don't ignore the other aspects of the job.

Morey doesn't build teams so much as he collects stars and hopes it will work out only trying to emulate the Lakers has never really worked out for anyone except Ainge who needed a favor from his friend McHale.

Morey has Embiid now and instead of trying to collect some complementary lesser stars, which he could absolutely do even now, he's singularly focused on adding another superstar and trying to brush all that other stuff aside. He's the one with the track record and history is repeating itself and he hasn't learned. He's right there making a public display trying to control his image in the media.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Rui Hachimura?

Not that I mean that Rui is cynically "pulling the mental health card". But he is an example of a guy who is missing games for a mental health issue and still getting paid.

What Simmons seems to be doing is outrageous and contemptable. He is just trying to find a way to get paid without having to play, so he is fabricating a mental health issue where one doesn't exist.

Really, Nate. The man is going through a major career crisis with his bosses, teammates, fans, media, etc. publicly weighing in on who he is and is not and you refuse to even consider that he might be dealing with mental health issues. Really?

Making a series of bad decisions and then having to face the consequences of them is not a mental health issue.

The hell it isn't. Trust me it is a sign that you might be mentally ill when decisions one makes are dubious, flat bizarre ,or bad.

On this one I'm what they call a mental health care specialist certified by the state of Hawaii Department of hell. I'm a guy that has been there and done that for a long time because of a mental health diagnosis from way back in 1995. I'm no expert but I do think I lived apart and I have the training to say things expertly.

Rui Hachimura just came off of the Olympics and something's going on with his brother and we don't know what's going on with him or his family. Not to speculate about the onset of a thing like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder can be extremely traumatic. People on the outside looking in have no freaking clue. Another Factor could be that really has all kinds of new teammates many of whom are taking his minutes. That can be a stressor. New coach and new pecking order but I don't think that's what kept him out of camp.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

One of the worst posts if not the worst I think I've ever seen you make Nate. To say the guy is faking...

If you care to look up mental health stigma and mental health shaming. It's times like this that make people commit suicide if they are weak and impressionable or just really down on themselves. An insensitive or ignorant, comment can push someone over the edge.

"Nobody cares that you're spent emotionally or physically or psychologically. Suit up and go. Shut up and dribble."

Is that the mentality?

The National Suicide Prevention Hotline 1-800-273-TALK (8255)

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Bob Marley would say that there are a lot of “Crazy Baldheads” comments in this thread the last couple of days.

Posters who "eat up all our corn and treat us with a scorn."

Preach

Watch on YouTube

[nate33]

Really, Nate. The man is going through a major career crisis with his bosses, teammates, fans, media, etc. publicly weighing in on who he is and is not and you refuse to even consider that he might be dealing with mental health issues. Really?

Making a series of bad decisions and then having to face the consequences of them is not a mental health issue.

The hell it isn't. Trust me it is a sign that you might be mentally ill when decisions one makes are dubious, flat bizarre ,or bad.

On this one I'm what they call a mental health care specialist certified by the state of Hawaii Department of hell. I'm a guy that has been there and done that for a long time because of a mental health diagnosis from way back in 1995. I'm no expert but I do think I lived apart and I have the training to say things expertly.

Rui Hachimura just came off of the Olympics and something's going on with his brother and we don't know what's going on with him or his family. Not to speculate about the onset of a thing like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder can be extremely traumatic. People on the outside looking in have no freaking clue. Another Factor could be that really has all kinds of new teammates many of whom are taking his minutes. That can be a stressor. New coach and new pecking order but I don't think that's what kept him out of camp.

I'm just a guy speculating on a message board. Obviously, I can't know the true story. Maybe I'm wrong, but from the clues I see, I do think Simmons is faking it. And I say this in an effort to support providing mental health services to deserving NBA players. If Simmons is cynically exploiting the mental health provisions of the CBA for personal gain, he is undermining the system that provides mental health support for other NBA players.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Making a series of bad decisions and then having to face the consequences of them is not a mental health issue.

The hell it isn't. Trust me it is a sign that you might be mentally ill when decisions one makes are dubious, flat bizarre ,or bad.

On this one I'm what they call a mental health care specialist certified by the state of Hawaii Department of hell. I'm a guy that has been there and done that for a long time because of a mental health diagnosis from way back in 1995. I'm no expert but I do think I lived apart and I have the training to say things expertly.

Rui Hachimura just came off of the Olympics and something's going on with his brother and we don't know what's going on with him or his family. Not to speculate about the onset of a thing like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder can be extremely traumatic. People on the outside looking in have no freaking clue. Another Factor could be that really has all kinds of new teammates many of whom are taking his minutes. That can be a stressor. New coach and new pecking order but I don't think that's what kept him out of camp.

I'm just a guy speculating on a message board. Obviously, I can't know the true story. Maybe I'm wrong, but from the clues I see, I do think Simmons is faking it. And I say this in an effort to support providing mental health services to deserving NBA players. If Simmons is cynically exploiting the mental health provisions of the CBA for personal gain, he is undermining the system that provides mental health support for other NBA players.

What clues do you see. I see a kid who very clearly didn't want to play for a team and then the team decided they were going to play tough and acted shocked when the kid didn't handle it well. It absolutely could be Simmons taking advantage of the situation but I don't actually see any clues about it being so.

What I do see are clues that the team completely ignores mental health stuff and didn't stop to think that it might be an issue, or just plain didn't care if it might be. That's the part that should leave people baffled here. What did Morey think he had to gain handling this the way he did? Did he really learn nothing from any of his past conflicts?

And the fun part is the entire franchise is taking after his lead and the public scrutiny is everywhere. Embiid makes a horribly reckless play on Josh Giddey in a game already in hand and the Sixers commentator says he doesn't care if Giddey is okay or not? That's going viral. Management has made it clear they only care about the health of certain guys which rings similar to player complaints that Harden and Dwight were treated differently by the team back in the day.

[payitforward]

I'd say it's almost impossible for him to be "faking it" in the literal sense. I.e. that he cooked this up consciously as a way to reframe his situation & increase his control over it.

It's not completely inconceivable of course, but it would require an exceptionally mature guy who'd worked hard on the skills involved in faking something of this kind. He just doesn't seem like that guy.

Moreover, to "fake" it, the reality would have to be that he was more or less unaffected by all the stressors in his situation -- which are real & significant.

Finally, you don't have to like him (& obviously you don't have to think he's a great player) to see how intensely this situation could affect him.

[nate33]

The hell it isn't. Trust me it is a sign that you might be mentally ill when decisions one makes are dubious, flat bizarre ,or bad.

On this one I'm what they call a mental health care specialist certified by the state of Hawaii Department of hell. I'm a guy that has been there and done that for a long time because of a mental health diagnosis from way back in 1995. I'm no expert but I do think I lived apart and I have the training to say things expertly.

Rui Hachimura just came off of the Olympics and something's going on with his brother and we don't know what's going on with him or his family. Not to speculate about the onset of a thing like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder can be extremely traumatic. People on the outside looking in have no freaking clue. Another Factor could be that really has all kinds of new teammates many of whom are taking his minutes. That can be a stressor. New coach and new pecking order but I don't think that's what kept him out of camp.

I'm just a guy speculating on a message board. Obviously, I can't know the true story. Maybe I'm wrong, but from the clues I see, I do think Simmons is faking it. And I say this in an effort to support providing mental health services to deserving NBA players. If Simmons is cynically exploiting the mental health provisions of the CBA for personal gain, he is undermining the system that provides mental health support for other NBA players.

What clues do you see.

The fact that he didn't "play the mental health card" until he exhausted all other options to get paid.

He first tried to get paid despite not showing up to training camp. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by showing up at practice but not participating. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by making vague references to a sore back. Morey told him to pound sand.
Now, he is alleging mental health issues - something that is close to impossible to verify.

If Simmons had stated that he had mental health issues over the summer given all the stress and pressure from the Finals and from his treatment by his teammates, fans and media, that would have made sense and I would have been sympathetic. But that's not how it happened.

I'm just saying his pattern of behavior is causing my bulls**t radar to smoke.

I do agree with you that Morey and the Sixers played a part in this. They definitely have done a poor job of managing relations with Simmons and they deserve to suffer the consequences of being forced to trade him at pennies on the dollar.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I'm just a guy speculating on a message board. Obviously, I can't know the true story. Maybe I'm wrong, but from the clues I see, I do think Simmons is faking it. And I say this in an effort to support providing mental health services to deserving NBA players. If Simmons is cynically exploiting the mental health provisions of the CBA for personal gain, he is undermining the system that provides mental health support for other NBA players.

What clues do you see.

The fact that he didn't "play the mental health card" until he exhausted all other options to get paid.

He first tried to get paid despite now showing up to training camp. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by showing up at practice but not participating. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by making vague references to a sore back. Morey told him to pound sand.
Now, he is alleging mental health issues - something that is close to impossible to verify.

If Simmons had stated that he had mental health issues over the summer given all the stress and pressure from the Finals and from his treatment by his teammates, fans and media, that would have made sense and I would have been sympathetic. But that's not how it happened.

I'm just saying his pattern of behavior is causing my bulls**t radar to smoke.

I do agree with you that Morey and the Sixers played a part in this. They definitely have done a poor job of managing relations with Simmons and they deserve to suffer the consequences of being forced to trade him at pennies on the dollar.

My suggestion here is that people suffering from mental health issues don't generally come super public with it for everyone to see. Just not how it works. Doesn't mean he isn't faking it but you're holding him to an unreasonable standard that just doesn't play out in real life most of the time. And being met with a chorus of disbelief is something that reinforces that reality.

[nate33]

What clues do you see.

The fact that he didn't "play the mental health card" until he exhausted all other options to get paid.

He first tried to get paid despite now showing up to training camp. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by showing up at practice but not participating. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by making vague references to a sore back. Morey told him to pound sand.
Now, he is alleging mental health issues - something that is close to impossible to verify.

If Simmons had stated that he had mental health issues over the summer given all the stress and pressure from the Finals and from his treatment by his teammates, fans and media, that would have made sense and I would have been sympathetic. But that's not how it happened.

I'm just saying his pattern of behavior is causing my bulls**t radar to smoke.

I do agree with you that Morey and the Sixers played a part in this. They definitely have done a poor job of managing relations with Simmons and they deserve to suffer the consequences of being forced to trade him at pennies on the dollar.

My suggestion here is that people suffering from mental health issues don't generally come super public with it for everyone to see. Just not how it works. Doesn't mean he isn't faking it but you're holding him to an unreasonable standard that just doesn't play out in real life most of the time.

Fair enough. Obviously, we don't have all the facts. If it turns out that Simmons had been discretely seeing mental health professionals over the summer, or something like that, then I would change my tune. But if last week was the first time anyone invoked "mental health", then it doesn't pass the smell test for me.

This kinda reminds me of "always believe the woman" back during the #MeToo craze. That's baloney. You don't always believe the woman. The story has to have some credibility and there needs to be some evidence before you start prosecuting men and/or firing them for sexual harassment. The same applies here. Just because someone says the magic words, "mental health" doesn't mean he is beyond scrutiny.

[I_Like_Dirt]

The fact that he didn't "play the mental health card" until he exhausted all other options to get paid.

He first tried to get paid despite now showing up to training camp. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by showing up at practice but not participating. Morey told him to pound sand.
He then tried to get paid by making vague references to a sore back. Morey told him to pound sand.
Now, he is alleging mental health issues - something that is close to impossible to verify.

If Simmons had stated that he had mental health issues over the summer given all the stress and pressure from the Finals and from his treatment by his teammates, fans and media, that would have made sense and I would have been sympathetic. But that's not how it happened.

I'm just saying his pattern of behavior is causing my bulls**t radar to smoke.

I do agree with you that Morey and the Sixers played a part in this. They definitely have done a poor job of managing relations with Simmons and they deserve to suffer the consequences of being forced to trade him at pennies on the dollar.

My suggestion here is that people suffering from mental health issues don't generally come super public with it for everyone to see. Just not how it works. Doesn't mean he isn't faking it but you're holding him to an unreasonable standard that just doesn't play out in real life most of the time.

Fair enough. Obviously, we don't have all the facts. If it turns out that Simmons had been discretely seeing mental health professionals over the summer, or something like that, then I would change my tune. But if last week was the first time anyone invoked "mental health", then it doesn't pass the smell test for me.

This kinda reminds me of "always believe the woman" back during the #MeToo craze. That's baloney. You don't always believe the woman. The story has to have some credibility and there needs to be some evidence before you start prosecuting men and/or firing them for sexual harassment. The same applies here. Just because someone says the magic words, "mental health" doesn't mean he is beyond scrutiny.

Always believe the woman? Baloney? It's definitely more nuanced than that but people don't see nuance. Always take the woman seriously and treat her with respect? What's so hard about taking claims at face value and actually looking into them? People run with all sorts of wild stuff without looking into it. There will invariably be a few false claims but they're a rather tiny minority and that's where taking care in investigations would go a long way. Almost like reforming the police to better handle stuff like that would be a good idea?

But to bring it back to the topic the way to handle this is to back Simmons all the way - should have started when he took over. Even if he wanted to trade him, they aren't mutually exclusive. And now? Support Simmons and start advocating for mental health and stuff like that. If Simmons is lying, Morey has still done some good, maybe helped his other employees along the way, and is much more sympathetic.

Morey doesn't act like that though. He generally seems (like Ainge) to want to make sure everyone knows he's the smartest guy in the room and that doesn't line up with risking the off chance that Simmons is lying about mental health issues and he didn't catch it. And it also doesn't line up with players effectively being chess pieces he can move around.

[dckingsfan]

I'd say it's almost impossible for him to be "faking it" in the literal sense. I.e. that he cooked this up consciously as a way to reframe his situation & increase his control over it.

It's not completely inconceivable of course, but it would require an exceptionally mature guy who'd worked hard on the skills involved in faking something of this kind. He just doesn't seem like that guy.

Moreover, to "fake" it, the reality would have to be that he was more or less unaffected by all the stressors in his situation -- which are real & significant.

Finally, you don't have to like him (& obviously you don't have to think he's a great player) to see how intensely this situation could affect him.

This. And it would be cumulative.

1a) Begins to lose faith to be able to hit a shot
1b) Perceives that he isn't needed or wanted by Rivers or Embiid
2) Philly fans hate him due to his performance
3) Wants out - asks for a trade
4) Vilified by many for asking for the trade - lots of hate on social media
5) Vilified by many for taking the contract - more hate on social media
6) Morey pushes the buttons even more - I can wait 4 years
7) Now has to come back and face Rivers, Embiid and Morey and most importantly the Philly fans

It probably started with self doubt (not hitting shots), built to anger and then to fear (yeah, I am probably missing some steps in there).

[DCZards]

Nate, maybe you should just stick with your own instincts when it comes to assessing or evaluating the mental health of another human being. Here's what you wrote on the Rui thread a few short weeks ago.

I dunno. Perhaps I'm not the best guy to comment on this sort of thing. I'm very "left brained" in my thinking and I suck at understanding things like depression and anxiety in others. I would be the world's worst psychiatrist.

[verbal8]

If Simmons was going to fake something, it seems a physical issue would help him more. Since his big problem is Philly still demanding a ransom. He probably wouldn't even need to full fake something, just play up the effect of some nagging issue.

Short of attempts to avoid criminal responsibility, I can't think of many examples of faking mental health issues.