Political Roundtable Part XXXI

[pancakes3]

https://insideevs.com/news/631229/wyoming-ban-electric-vehicle-sales/

where to even start.

[Zonkerbl]

Popper just know that that is what you are saying when you say stuff like that. Just pointing it out. If your intention is not to be anti semitic then "give statements like that the skepticism they deserve" before repeating them

[doclinkin]

https://insideevs.com/news/631229/wyoming-ban-electric-vehicle-sales/

where to even start.

How do these two-gallon heads in ten-gallon hats get 2 senators? And DC gets no vote. The whole state of Wyoming has fewer people than Baltimore, MD. Maybe the 'Charm' CIty should get 2 senators. Or Albuquerque. Or Fresno.

[Pointgod]

Now i feel bad about even asking a question earlier. Pancakes calls me a "piece of crap" and now you call me "an irresponsible piece of garbage." Nice thread. Monte - Are you okay with the immature and ignorant ad hominem?

Hahaha don’t be so uptight. I’m talking about Republicans in congress, unless you’re secretly Kevin McCarthy. Why would you even think any of that was directed at you?

Serious question for you. Do you think it’s appropriate that Republicans investigate Biden but not both Biden and Trump? Why not investigate both cases? Especially if you’re the party of accountability and responsibility

I appreciate the distinction PG and yes both should be investigated. I don't know what the percentage is, but my guess would be that approximately 80% of both party representatives are self-serving and corrupt. It's important to note though that on both sides of the aisle there are those who are not. They should be applauded. We should debate these issues with good will and try not to stigmatize those that support policy preferences that are different from our own.

Both parties aren’t the same. It’s just something Republican voters tell themselves to make you feel better about the corruption in the party. I don’t believe 80% of either party is corrupt and self serving.

The issue is that the Republican rot starts at the top. Trump, McConnell, Mcarthy and the typical band of goobers like Matt Gaetz, Taylor Green, Rand Paul etc… there’s no equivalent in the Democratic Party. Just look at this corruption below. This is 1000x more corrupt than anything right wing imagination could make up about Hunter Biden. Remember Saudi gave Kushner 2 billion dollars and have been giving money to Trump golf clubs.

Read on Twitter

[dobrojim]

GOP - Ethics? We don't need no stinkin' ethics.

[dobrojim]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/01/15/biden-contrast-maga-crazies/

Voters are predictably disgusted. Navigator, a Democratic polling and messaging operation, found that “sizable majorities believe Republicans are focused on consolidating their power and fighting among themselves rather than serving the public.” Only 14 percent want Republicans to spend time investigating the Bidens. And just 44 percent of independents view McCarthy favorably, a 20-point drop from November.

If it were not for the obvious distinction in their respective motivations, one might
might wonder when the dems will come up with some stupid but trying to be clever
slogan for McCarthy like the maggats did with Let's Go Brandon.

But the pubs are doing a great job of doing SMH dumb ish without any need of dems
pointing out all the dumb ish they're doing. The pubs are so out of touch they think
a majority of voters like what they're doing. All the stuff they ran on, oops, wait a minute,
they didn't run on AN.Y.THING has suddenly been lost in the fog of the Obstruct Justice select
committee.

Rubin continues

Now Biden has the opportunity to contrast himself with House Republicans, who are living up to Democrats’ characterization as unethical, power-hungry, chaotic and clueless. It’s as if they took Biden’s speech in Philadelphia last year decrying extreme MAGA Republicans as a playbook, not an indictment.

[bsilver]

It is unfortunate that bipartisan cooperation is pretty much dead in Washington. A proper bi-partisan investigation could look into how prevent both types of incidents from happening in the future. Although the incidents seem very different, both did to some degree put the countries secrets and by extension security at risk.

If Republicans were not irresponsible pieces of garbage, you’re right there would be substantial solutions to prevent this type of stuff from happening. But of course they can’t, because they would just expose Trump’s criminality. They will just turn this into a circus. These **** are so beholden to a clown that keeps losing for them it defies any logic

Now i feel bad about even asking a question earlier. Pancakes calls me a "piece of crap" and now you call me "an irresponsible piece of garbage." Nice thread. Monte - Are you okay with the immature and ignorant ad hominem?

I agree completely. There are far too many ad hominem attacks here and nothing is done to stop the offenders. Maybe if you complained directly to an admin, some action would be taken.

[dobrojim]

^ the description quoted above and complained about was not directed at any specific poster on this board
(as I read it).
Arguably that could have been made more clear. Nonetheless it's not worse than our Hit&Run guy
who likes the word dimwit, not that that is a level I try to aspire to.

Engage on substantive policy questions.

What substantive public policies that the GOP ran on are you in favor of or opposed to?
I realize that is a tough question given that the essence of their campaign was to seek
retribution.

Or comment on your impressions of other recent news.

[pancakes3]

If Republicans were not irresponsible pieces of garbage, you’re right there would be substantial solutions to prevent this type of stuff from happening. But of course they can’t, because they would just expose Trump’s criminality. They will just turn this into a circus. These **** are so beholden to a clown that keeps losing for them it defies any logic

Now i feel bad about even asking a question earlier. Pancakes calls me a "piece of crap" and now you call me "an irresponsible piece of garbage." Nice thread. Monte - Are you okay with the immature and ignorant ad hominem?

I agree completely. There are far too many ad hominem attacks here and nothing is done to stop the offenders. Maybe if you complained directly to an admin, some action would be taken.

With all due respect, I disagree.

1) Pointgod called Republicans capital R irresponsible pieces of garbage, how is that an ad hom at Popper or anyone else?
2) I called Popper a piece of crap months ago, haven't since, so it's not fair to say that there are "far too many." I don't remember what context it was in - I think it was about DeSantis being a piece of crap as it relates to his policies on a bunch of different topics (environmental, immigration, lgbtq+ issues) which was especially charged bc I don't think Popper ever acknowledged or countered with any salient points, and added context a poster shared about how frightening it is for him and his family specifically re: the policies and rhetoric towards transgendered persons.
3) Ad hom, as a term of art, describes the lack of logic behind a point of argument. There's almost always substance behind the ad homs levied against Republicans in this thread - don't shut down the marketplace of ideas by trying to decry ad hom without examining the underlying arguments.
4) These are pretty mild insults, maybe grow some thicker skin.
5) If the shoe fits.

What's the latest kerfuffle about? Some knee jerk reactions to Biden returning confidential documents he kept dating back to his time as VP, and how it relates to the ongoing Trump investigation? Do either of you want to engage in that conversation or are you more concerned about tone policing what are already mild and banal insults? Because it seems like the latter, and I'll redirect you to point 3 above, wherein: (a) there is a substantive topic; (b) some light ad homs were used in addition to substantive thoughts re: the propriety of both Biden and Trump; (c) the conversation is halted wherein Popper throws back some ad homs (immature and ignorant) but provides no substantive points re: the propriety of either Biden or Trump; (d) we are now discussing the ad homs and not the original point of discussion.

And to trot out an old talking point re: this thread, conservatives on this board seem completely uninterested in debating actual topics, and moreover, politicized topics in the news zeitgeist are actually nonpartisan topics all together. republicans and democrats can be united in their outrage at both Biden and Trump retaining documents, but it's devolved into tribal support of one man vs another. To force the false binary between "Trump's bad" v " Biden bad" only reinforces the division/culture war between the constituents that is unproductive to civil discourse - a tactic that has proven time and time again to be utilized disproportionately by Republicans.

eta: scooped by Dobro

[bsilver]

^ the description quoted above and complained about was not directed at any specific poster on this board
(as I read it).
Arguably that could have been made more clear. Nonetheless it's not worse than our Hit&Run guy
who likes the word dimwit, not that that is a level I try to aspire to.

Engage on substantive policy questions.

What substantive public policies that the GOP ran on are you in favor of or opposed to?
I realize that is a tough question given that the essence of their campaign was to seek
retribution.

Or comment on your impressions of other recent news.

I think your post is directed at me.
First, I am a liberal Democrat, so my comments were made in the interest of civil discourse, not partisan politics. Also, Popper is the only conservative of late to post here, to be taken seriously, so we have an additional responsibility to welcome opposing points of view.
Specifically, what I've seen:
pancakes3 admittedly called popper a "piece of crap". He said that was a while back, so I assume he's toned it down.
I disagree that pointgod's referring to Republicans as "irresponsible pieces of garbage" is not an ad hominem attack. If I identify as a Democrat and someone responds to something I posted, with D's are whatever, then it's pretty clear that comment is directed at me as well as Ds in general. If the comment is not a response to a post then I agree it's not ad hominem, but I don't think it's helpful if we're trying to have useful discussions here.
zonkerbl posted yesterday that popper was repeating something that could be considered anti-semitic. I've looked at popper's recent posts and haven't seen anything that could be considered anti-semitic. And my background is Jewish, so I'm pretty sensitive to that.

[dckingsfan]

^ the description quoted above and complained about was not directed at any specific poster on this board
(as I read it).
Arguably that could have been made more clear. Nonetheless it's not worse than our Hit&Run guy
who likes the word dimwit, not that that is a level I try to aspire to.

Engage on substantive policy questions.

What substantive public policies that the GOP ran on are you in favor of or opposed to?
I realize that is a tough question given that the essence of their campaign was to seek
retribution.

Or comment on your impressions of other recent news.

I think your post is directed at me.
First, I am a liberal Democrat, so my comments were made in the interest of civil discourse, not partisan politics. Also, Popper is the only conservative of late to post here, to be taken seriously, so we have an additional responsibility to welcome opposing points of view.
Specifically, what I've seen:
pancakes3 admittedly called popper a "piece of crap". He said that was a while back, so I assume he's toned it down.
I disagree that pointgod's referring to Republicans as "irresponsible pieces of garbage" is not an ad hominem attack. If I identify as a Democrat and someone responds to something I posted, with D's are whatever, then it's pretty clear that comment is directed at me as well as Ds in general. If the comment is not a response to a post then I agree it's not ad hominem, but I don't think it's helpful if we're trying to have useful discussions here.
zonkerbl posted yesterday that popper was repeating something that could be considered anti-semitic. I've looked at popper's recent posts and haven't seen anything that could be considered anti-semitic. And my background is Jewish, so I'm pretty sensitive to that.

Civil discourse should be attacking the argument and not the poster, agreed. But... we have a collective problem right now.

Not being able to call Trump a POS when he is a tax cheating, serial liar that wanted to take democracy is a mistake? Same with the R representatives in the house after they backed Trump, blatantly lied about the election and had some conspire with the January 6th team.

To me, that is the very definition of POS.

And let's note that this discourse started by Trump and the R POS liars and was very effective. But the Ds need to stay above the fray? Ds need to have substantive arguments and R politicians don't need to do the same?

And Popper is very good at not responding with substantive arguments - actually he is the past master with a handwave saying the subject is too complex. Additionally, many of the responses have been due to the frustration with regards to unsubstantiated drive-bys.

I personally think this IS the time to call a POS a POS. It is the time to call out the both side folks. It is time for them to justify why their side should be allowed to control government after the forever wars, crippling tax cuts and January 6th.

[Wizardspride]

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[Wizardspride]

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[Pointgod]

^ the description quoted above and complained about was not directed at any specific poster on this board
(as I read it).
Arguably that could have been made more clear. Nonetheless it's not worse than our Hit&Run guy
who likes the word dimwit, not that that is a level I try to aspire to.

Engage on substantive policy questions.

What substantive public policies that the GOP ran on are you in favor of or opposed to?
I realize that is a tough question given that the essence of their campaign was to seek
retribution.

Or comment on your impressions of other recent news.

I think your post is directed at me.
First, I am a liberal Democrat, so my comments were made in the interest of civil discourse, not partisan politics. Also, Popper is the only conservative of late to post here, to be taken seriously, so we have an additional responsibility to welcome opposing points of view.
Specifically, what I've seen:
pancakes3 admittedly called popper a "piece of crap". He said that was a while back, so I assume he's toned it down.
I disagree that pointgod's referring to Republicans as "irresponsible pieces of garbage" is not an ad hominem attack. If I identify as a Democrat and someone responds to something I posted, with D's are whatever, then it's pretty clear that comment is directed at me as well as Ds in general. If the comment is not a response to a post then I agree it's not ad hominem, but I don't think it's helpful if we're trying to have useful discussions here.
zonkerbl posted yesterday that popper was repeating something that could be considered anti-semitic. I've looked at popper's recent posts and haven't seen anything that could be considered anti-semitic. And my background is Jewish, so I'm pretty sensitive to that.

Obviously disagree with this assessment here. We’re on a politics board where 95% of the posts are talking about Washington politicians and state and local politicians. Lots of left leaning posters constantly post about how the Democrats are corrupt or weak or racist. Even though I disagree with the argument I, don’t see it as a personal attack against Democratic posters. Personal attacks are pretty obvious. Here are some examples from our resident old man who yells at clouds Bonscott:

Obviously nitwit democrats prefer to ignore the fact that the US has been turned to shambles in just 2 years while the head nitwit is sending even more money to other countries. You have no issue with US citizens having to sleep on the street while you provide free room and board to non US citizens ...

Democrats are absolutely clueless.
They think it's ok that the husband of the biggest hag in the US drives drunk
They preach gun control then release the "Merchant of death"
And they happily put the US into a recession

Then there’s the drive by specialist TGW who refuses to make a coherent argument and just insults people

See how triggered some of you babies are when your little sh*tlib bubble gets popped. It’s hilarious. Pointing out the obvious factual statement “biden is failing spectacularly based on polling” sent some of you off a cliff. No accountability…just mudlsinging. That’s why the dems are going to lose the house, possibly the senate, the whitehouse, and they’ve already lost in the SC. It’s a terrible party and people like you are the reason why.

These are just two examples of personal attacks yet I don’t think anyone here has reported these. I actually don’t care if they insult me, Democrats, the whole board, Biden because I know that they can’t argue in reality. So I think it’s disingenuous to act like Conservatives get smoke for opposing viewpoints and not because they support reprehensible behavior. When I say Republican are garbage, I can back it up with evidence based on their actions, words, inaction and raising up the most morally bankrupt people and these examples will all be elected officials or people they associate with.

[Pointgod]

If we can’t call the one party that encourages and celebrates this type of behavior garbage, then I’m not sure what to say because this is only going to happen more and it’s going to get worse even taking Jan 6th into account.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

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Read on Twitter

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Gross

[bsilver]

^ the description quoted above and complained about was not directed at any specific poster on this board
(as I read it).
Arguably that could have been made more clear. Nonetheless it's not worse than our Hit&Run guy
who likes the word dimwit, not that that is a level I try to aspire to.

Engage on substantive policy questions.

What substantive public policies that the GOP ran on are you in favor of or opposed to?
I realize that is a tough question given that the essence of their campaign was to seek
retribution.

Or comment on your impressions of other recent news.

I think your post is directed at me.
First, I am a liberal Democrat, so my comments were made in the interest of civil discourse, not partisan politics. Also, Popper is the only conservative of late to post here, to be taken seriously, so we have an additional responsibility to welcome opposing points of view.
Specifically, what I've seen:
pancakes3 admittedly called popper a "piece of crap". He said that was a while back, so I assume he's toned it down.
I disagree that pointgod's referring to Republicans as "irresponsible pieces of garbage" is not an ad hominem attack. If I identify as a Democrat and someone responds to something I posted, with D's are whatever, then it's pretty clear that comment is directed at me as well as Ds in general. If the comment is not a response to a post then I agree it's not ad hominem, but I don't think it's helpful if we're trying to have useful discussions here.
zonkerbl posted yesterday that popper was repeating something that could be considered anti-semitic. I've looked at popper's recent posts and haven't seen anything that could be considered anti-semitic. And my background is Jewish, so I'm pretty sensitive to that.

Civil discourse should be attacking the argument and not the poster, agreed. But... we have a collective problem right now.

Not being able to call Trump a POS when he is a tax cheating, serial liar that wanted to take democracy is a mistake? Same with the R representatives in the house after they backed Trump, blatantly lied about the election and had some conspire with the January 6th team.

To me, that is the very definition of POS.

And let's note that this discourse started by Trump and the R POS liars and was very effective. But the Ds need to stay above the fray? Ds need to have substantive arguments and R politicians don't need to do the same?

And Popper is very good at not responding with substantive arguments - actually he is the past master with a handwave saying the subject is too complex. Additionally, many of the responses have been due to the frustration with regards to unsubstantiated drive-bys.

I personally think this IS the time to call a POS a POS. It is the time to call out the both side folks. It is time for them to justify why their side should be allowed to control government after the forever wars, crippling tax cuts and January 6th.

I agree with everything you've said if we're talking about our current public political environment. Democrats have to fight back and be almost as partisan as R's. I can't see disputing the results of fair elections, but just about anything else goes.

However, in the non-political part of our daily existence, and in this Realgm forum, we interact with people of differing political beliefs. There's a definite benefit to society if we try to be civil. If we acted toward people with different beliefs like we treat them in political online forums, our society could not function. With all the guns around, it would get ugly.

Nobody cares what is said in our Political Roundtable here except for about 10 people, The stakes are miniscule. It doesn't hurt to be pleasant to each other. There's no effect on the political battle going on outside.

[popper]

^ the description quoted above and complained about was not directed at any specific poster on this board
(as I read it).
Arguably that could have been made more clear. Nonetheless it's not worse than our Hit&Run guy
who likes the word dimwit, not that that is a level I try to aspire to.

Engage on substantive policy questions.

What substantive public policies that the GOP ran on are you in favor of or opposed to?
I realize that is a tough question given that the essence of their campaign was to seek
retribution.

Or comment on your impressions of other recent news.

I think your post is directed at me.
First, I am a liberal Democrat, so my comments were made in the interest of civil discourse, not partisan politics. Also, Popper is the only conservative of late to post here, to be taken seriously, so we have an additional responsibility to welcome opposing points of view.
Specifically, what I've seen:
pancakes3 admittedly called popper a "piece of crap". He said that was a while back, so I assume he's toned it down.
I disagree that pointgod's referring to Republicans as "irresponsible pieces of garbage" is not an ad hominem attack. If I identify as a Democrat and someone responds to something I posted, with D's are whatever, then it's pretty clear that comment is directed at me as well as Ds in general. If the comment is not a response to a post then I agree it's not ad hominem, but I don't think it's helpful if we're trying to have useful discussions here.
zonkerbl posted yesterday that popper was repeating something that could be considered anti-semitic. I've looked at popper's recent posts and haven't seen anything that could be considered anti-semitic. And my background is Jewish, so I'm pretty sensitive to that.

I very much appreciate your comments bsilver. You obviously are a person of courage and sense of fairness. You set a great example for your family, our country and all that are wise enough to hear you. Over the last 10 or 12 years on this thread I've gone from an interest and desire to discuss important issues, to disappointment that others prefer to personally trash those that might deviate from progressive dogma, to resignation that political dialectic is no longer even possible here (without enduring ignorant ad hominem attacks). It's sad and doesn't offer much hope for our country's tolerance for honest debate (which IMO is vital to our collective future) or provide our progeny with the examples they will need to forge a decent future for themselves.

[Wizardspride]

Gonna be a long two years....

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[Wizardspride]

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