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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1781 » by nate33 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:01 pm

payitforward wrote:As to anybody's skill set fitting "this team" -- we won 25 games this year: .352 winning percentage. After 32 wins last year. Doesn't it seem like a better idea to build a team around the skills of the best young players we have or can get? Better I mean than imagining we ought to leverage the skills we have because they represent anything particularly wonderful?

Just a thought... I may be imputing to your remarks more of an intention than makes sense...

If I understand what you are saying, I agree. We are not at the stage where we should worry much about fit, because that implies we are just a move or two away from contention, which we know is false. We should be doing what we can to acquire guys who will peak 2-3 years from now (or later), because that's the soonest we could realistically contend.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1782 » by pcbothwel » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:16 pm

Ruzious wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
nate33 wrote:The injuries are a concern.

I'm not too worried about the shooting. The shooting is a problem in Philly because he is playing alongside so many other non-shooters. It just makes it impossible to fully realize the potential of both Simmons and Embiid. That won't be a problem here with Bryant at center.

I love Beal, but I just don't see this team turning the corner and being a contender in it's current form, and they'll never add another star to the Wall/Beal core because of the cost and the lack of picks. I wouldn't just give away Beal as a rebuilding ploy, but I would trade him for a very young All-Star talent with All-NBA capability. It's very rare to find such a guy on the trade market, and Ben Simmons is it.


You're giving Simmons a pass with no evidence. I dont think people realize the gap between Lebron/Giannis and Simmons. Ben is not as freakish as those guys are physically, not NEARLY as focused or possess the leadership qualities, and less skilled.
There is a large sample size 3 years running of Ben Simmons getting worse...not better.

I dont understand some of you. You complain about the Wall/Beal team having the ceiling of a 2nd round playoff team, yet ignore that Simmons is no better and is the archetype of a limited player that gets exposed in the playoffs where high IQ players and coaches can tailor their defense to making him irrelevant because.... HE. CANT. SHOOT.

I want to take another shot with Wall/Beal and the young guys. If that doesnt work, then rebuild... But I DO NOT want to spend 2 years trading Wall/Beal, only to spend another 2-3 years realizing that Ben Simmons simply elongated our existence of a above average team. That would be another 4 years until we realize we are where we were in 2016.... Treadmill.

Why do you think our Wall/Beal team is anything more than a treadmill team? We've had them together for 8 years. They've been the definition of a treadmill team - except when they've been worse. Simmons is much more likely to dramatically improve than Beal and already has a better resume.


My point is we already have that team in place (Though we need a decent coach that can actually get guys to play defense).
So I'd rather take a shot next year with them, or rebuild. I think Simmons keeps us where we are at, but worse, he would elongate the treadmill because it would be a new team.

I will restate my thoughts on Wall/Beal. I truly think that 20/21 Wall/Beal will be as effective & efficient as a pair as they have ever been. Yes, their games, skill set, mindset, team dynamic, etc. have all changed, but I think get the best output from this pair now than we ever have.
So it comes down to the supporting cast.... Bonga & Brown both see the floor and contribute in a number of ways that keep the gears oiled... and Rui/Bryant have the offensive skill set that either could simply go off for a 30 point game and they cant be stopped.
Add in Bertans and the 9th pick, and I think you have an interesting team that could do some things in a shortened season with half the league strapped for cash.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1783 » by nate33 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:22 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
nate33 wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:How many times does ben simmons either A. show complete lack of the ability to shoot. or B. be hurt ALL THE TIME. until you stop trying to trade beal for him. Ben is going to end up a bad deal because he can not shoot and hes not going to stay healthy !!!!!!1 sorry thats just how I see it. Id rather keep beal. imo

The injuries are a concern.

I'm not too worried about the shooting. The shooting is a problem in Philly because he is playing alongside so many other non-shooters. It just makes it impossible to fully realize the potential of both Simmons and Embiid. That won't be a problem here with Bryant at center.

I love Beal, but I just don't see this team turning the corner and being a contender in it's current form, and they'll never add another star to the Wall/Beal core because of the cost and the lack of picks. I wouldn't just give away Beal as a rebuilding ploy, but I would trade him for a very young All-Star talent with All-NBA capability. It's very rare to find such a guy on the trade market, and Ben Simmons is it.


You're giving Simmons a pass with no evidence. I dont think people realize the gap between Lebron/Giannis and Simmons. Ben is not as freakish as those guys are physically, not NEARLY as focused or possess the leadership qualities, and less skilled.
There is a large sample size 3 years running of Ben Simmons getting worse...not better.

I dont understand some of you. You complain about the Wall/Beal team having the ceiling of a 2nd round playoff team, yet ignore that Simmons is no better and is the archetype of a limited player that gets exposed in the playoffs where high IQ players and coaches can tailor their defense to making him irrelevant because.... HE. CANT. SHOOT.

I want to take another shot with Wall/Beal and the young guys. If that doesnt work, then rebuild... But I DO NOT want to spend 2 years trading Wall/Beal, only to spend another 2-3 years realizing that Ben Simmons simply elongated our existence of a above average team. That would be another 4 years until we realize we are where we were in 2016.... Treadmill.

I think Simmons has gotten better every year. His ORtg has improved each year and this is clearly his best year defensively. He's a top 5 defensive player in the league, IMO.

And I can't stress enough how poor of a fit Simmons is in Philly. Give Simmons spacing around him and he'll become the power forward version of Grant Hill (more size and interior defense, less midrange shooting). Ultimately, I don't think Simmons will peak as an MVP candidate or anything, but he'll be All-NBA 2nd Team a few times. That's Beal's ceiling too. Only Beal is gone in 2 years or will cost 35% of the cap. Simmons is around for another 5 years at just 25% of the cap. And he is 3 years younger. With a contract like that, there is time and cap flexibility to add another star. With Beal, this is the team for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1784 » by dckingsfan » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:36 pm

payitforward wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:...I don't think anybody really wants any of our players at their current salary except for Beal and maybe Troy Brown. I suppose you could make a case that Troy Brown's skill set doesn't fit this team all that well (he's better with the ball than off ball) but reports are the team really loves his potential so they probably value him higher than the trade market.

Yeah, I could see a "Jerome Robinson" level trade, but that is about it... And, I think you are right on Troy Brown, when Wall/Beal show back up + Smith, I think you are moving him to SF. So, I guess I could see a Troy Brown trade as well it they could get a true 3&D SF.

But I think likely that this is who we are going to be next year.

nate -- I think we have a bunch of players other teams might well want at their current salaries but that they are guys we don't want to trade, i.e. most of whose value lies their futures. But they are all young players whom we wouldn't have any reason to trade and who, precisely b/c they are young & their salaries are low, wouldn't bring much back that could help us.

As to anybody's skill set fitting "this team" -- we won 25 games this year: .352 winning percentage. After 32 wins last year. Doesn't it seem like a better idea to build a team around the skills of the best young players we have or can get? Better I mean than imagining we ought to leverage the skills we have because they represent anything particularly wonderful?

Just a thought... I may be imputing to your remarks more of an intention than makes sense...

Okay, I am not nate but... :D

I don't think we have that "one" or even "two" young players to build around at this time. So, back to building around Wall/Beal. And that is when you get into "fit". And the one player he mentions is Brown who I think will be odd man out next year. As Ruz would say, back on the treadmill.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1785 » by DCZards » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:48 pm

I’m gonna keep coming back to what I consider the bad idea of teaming Wall and Simmons. Do you really want to take the guy (Wall) you’re paying $40 mil for the next few years and treat him like an afterthought by teaming him with a player (Simmons) with the same offensive strengths and weaknesses?

Wall may have improved as a shooter but I doubt (though I hope I’m wrong) that he’ll ever become an outstanding shooter. And any hopes of Simmons becoming a much better shooter are foolish, imo.

Beal, on the other hand, has an offensive skill set that complements that of Wall. He can score from pretty much anywhere on the floor and he has the play making skills to take some of that load off of Wall.

Yes, I’d love to have the defensive skill and mindset that Simmons brings. And I know there may be long term reasons for making the trade. But I’m not sold on them.

I’d never say don’t trade BB if the right deal came along. But I think it would be a mistake to trade him for a player who is such an ill-fit with your other star player (Wall).
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1786 » by doclinkin » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:55 pm

I think it is a moot point. I think for all but a godfather offer or a request by Beal he is here to stay. Or leastways here to stay for as long as he wants to be. Given the rapport he seems to have with the front office (consultation on draft and personnel decisions, discussions about his potential role after his career, support for his family and wife etc) I suspect If he is looking to move on I think he would make it known to Tommy and Ted before his contract runs out and would discuss a list of teams where he'd be willing to be traded. Sure, he'd be a great fit in Philly, but he'd be a great fit anywhere, he can pick a team and Tommy could get it done.

Barring that scenario I think its up to the front office to show that a Beal Wall combination can work, and that we have a future that grows that. I think that suggests that any trades we make will be after first shopping our pick for a young but solid veteran plus a lower pick (maybe adding in filler, or else giving a trade exception).

After which they may showcase any developing young talent in a possible trade for chemistry mid-season. At that point, after seeing what Bradstar and Wall 2.0 can give us, any player is on the block. Whether we as fans like it or not this is the stated direction of the front office, from Ted on down. This was the recruiting pitch in both the Brad and John re-signs. The word of the front office and trust issues are the only strong positive we have in recruiting and retaining free agents. The fact that Tommy is a good guy.

Personally I think the strongest opportunity for advancement after a personnel change would be at head coach. But that too would follow the influence of Wall/Beal.

As for trades, personally I think the best value and most under appreciated asset are in future picks from frontrunner teams and contenders that rely on one or two dominant stars. These are the teams that can suddenly crater when their keystone Allstar MVP candidates suffer a nagging injury or are fatigued from overuse. Bucks. Lakers. Rockets. Nuggets. These are teams that have one indispensable guy who makes their team work. Contenders are often willing to roll the dice on that one last piece to shore up their squad.

Sadly right now we have no reasonable piece they may covet except a re-signed Davis Bertans. Beal of course, but again, only his request and a godfather offer would change the status quo there.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1787 » by nate33 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:40 pm

I agree with Doc. A Beal trade is not happening. They're not adhering to any sort of grand plan with a title run X years down the road. They're just going to try to get incrementally better, year after year, and maybe at some point in the future, they'll have the assets to go all in on a contending team.

So look for them to try and develop their young talent and maybe acquire future picks. They'll look to make smart cap room acquisitions like the Bertans one when another team is in distress. (The mistake they made is not capitalizing on Bertans' value and getting a 1st round pick for him at the Trade Deadline.)

The blueprint is Toronto, Denver, Utah or San Antonio. Just be smart and hit lots of singles and doubles. Don't swing for the fences so much because you'll usually strike out.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1788 » by payitforward » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:02 pm

pcbothwel wrote:...
There is a large sample size 3 years running of Ben Simmons getting worse...not better....

I'd challenge that statement -- no, let me take it further: that statement is flat out wrong. It's not the case at all. No, Ben Simmons has not been "getting worse...not better..." over "3 years running."

Ok, now defend the claim.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1789 » by payitforward » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:08 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:As to anybody's skill set fitting "this team" -- we won 25 games this year: .352 winning percentage. After 32 wins last year. Doesn't it seem like a better idea to build a team around the skills of the best young players we have or can get? Better I mean than imagining we ought to leverage the skills we have because they represent anything particularly wonderful?

Just a thought... I may be imputing to your remarks more of an intention than makes sense...

If I understand what you are saying, I agree. We are not at the stage where we should worry much about fit, because that implies we are just a move or two away from contention, which we know is false. We should be doing what we can to acquire guys who will peak 2-3 years from now (or later), because that's the soonest we could realistically contend.

Right... with the slight adjustment that, since draft picks can't be expected to peak in 2-3 years, & since peaks can be expected to last 4 or more years, we should be acquiring players (through the draft & however else we can) who have a chance to peak 2-5 years from now.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1790 » by payitforward » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:37 pm

pcbothwel wrote:...I want to take another shot with Wall/Beal and the young guys. If that doesnt work, then rebuild...


pcbothwel wrote:I'd rather take a shot next year with them, or rebuild. I think Simmons keeps us where we are at, but worse, he would elongate the treadmill because it would be a new team.

I will restate my thoughts on Wall/Beal. I truly think that 20/21 Wall/Beal will be as effective & efficient as a pair as they have ever been. Yes, their games, skill set, mindset, team dynamic, etc. have all changed, but I think get the best output from this pair now than we ever have.
So it comes down to the supporting cast.... Bonga & Brown both see the floor and contribute in a number of ways that keep the gears oiled... and Rui/Bryant have the offensive skill set that either could simply go off for a 30 point game and they cant be stopped.
Add in Bertans and the 9th pick, and I think you have an interesting team that could do some things in a shortened season with half the league strapped for cash.

Let's leave Ben out of it for a moment.

What could possibly give you the idea that we can "take a shot" at anything next year?

We won 49 & 43 games in 2 successive seasons when we had truly outstanding seasons from Otto Porter & a well above average Center in Marcin Gortat. That was the peak, the incredible high point we reached. The nose bleed achievement.

In our one other good season over the Wall era we had Paul Pierce & we had Rasual Butler's 2.5 month stud-all-star impersonation.

In other words... meh. Nothin' special. Nice to be over .500 after the dismal period that preceded it. But, that's in the past -- since then we've been pretty awful.

So... take a team that went 25-46, add back John Wall & a rookie, & we are suddenly going to "do some things?" No. Sorry. We're not. We're going to be a bad team next year. Sub-.500. No playoffs -- or maybe a cup of coffee in R1 since we are in the weaker conference by far.

I left out Ben Simmons, because acquiring him for Brad Beal wouldn't change the above by much if at all -- despite the fact that he is a more productive NBA player than Brad. What it would do, however, is make us younger. We are a rebuilding team. The younger we are the better.

"Rebuilding" -- you know how many guys who will be on the Wizards for 2020 were with the team 2 years ago? Exactly two -- John Wall & Brad Beal.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1791 » by Ruzious » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:08 pm

doclinkin wrote:I think it is a moot point. I think for all but a godfather offer or a request by Beal he is here to stay. Or leastways here to stay for as long as he wants to be. Given the rapport he seems to have with the front office (consultation on draft and personnel decisions, discussions about his potential role after his career, support for his family and wife etc) I suspect If he is looking to move on I think he would make it known to Tommy and Ted before his contract runs out and would discuss a list of teams where he'd be willing to be traded. Sure, he'd be a great fit in Philly, but he'd be a great fit anywhere, he can pick a team and Tommy could get it done.

Barring that scenario I think its up to the front office to show that a Beal Wall combination can work, and that we have a future that grows that. I think that suggests that any trades we make will be after first shopping our pick for a young but solid veteran plus a lower pick (maybe adding in filler, or else giving a trade exception).

After which they may showcase any developing young talent in a possible trade for chemistry mid-season. At that point, after seeing what Bradstar and Wall 2.0 can give us, any player is on the block. Whether we as fans like it or not this is the stated direction of the front office, from Ted on down. This was the recruiting pitch in both the Brad and John re-signs. The word of the front office and trust issues are the only strong positive we have in recruiting and retaining free agents. The fact that Tommy is a good guy.

Personally I think the strongest opportunity for advancement after a personnel change would be at head coach. But that too would follow the influence of Wall/Beal.

As for trades, personally I think the best value and most under appreciated asset are in future picks from frontrunner teams and contenders that rely on one or two dominant stars. These are the teams that can suddenly crater when their keystone Allstar MVP candidates suffer a nagging injury or are fatigued from overuse. Bucks. Lakers. Rockets. Nuggets. These are teams that have one indispensable guy who makes their team work. Contenders are often willing to roll the dice on that one last piece to shore up their squad.

Sadly right now we have no reasonable piece they may covet except a re-signed Davis Bertans. Beal of course, but again, only his request and a godfather offer would change the status quo there.

After watching the Bucks lose to an Orlando team playing without both starting forwards and the Bucks completely reliant on the 3some of Giannis (soon to be a free agent) and Middleton and Bledsoe - both soon to be older players - yeah - they're desperate to win now and could throw away future picks to do it. If they lose Giannis, the bottom will completely fall out.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1792 » by pcbothwel » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:42 pm

payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:...
There is a large sample size 3 years running of Ben Simmons getting worse...not better....

I'd challenge that statement -- no, let me take it further: that statement is flat out wrong. It's not the case at all. No, Ben Simmons has not been "getting worse...not better..." over "3 years running."

Ok, now defend the claim.


Ummm. Didnt think it was that profound of a statement, but ok.
- His rebounding %, AST%, and USG% have all gone down, while his TOV% and foul rate have gone up
- His BPM, VORP, and On/Off have gone down.

And sure his TS has gone up, but thats not because he has gotten better. He went from taking 78% of his FGA within 10 feet of the basket to 94% !!!
For reference, Giannis shoot about 64% of his shots within 10 feet of the basket. So no, his 60% doesnt impress me anymore than Jarrett Allen, Deandre Jordan, or any other bigs in the league.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1793 » by pcbothwel » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:53 pm

payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:...I want to take another shot with Wall/Beal and the young guys. If that doesnt work, then rebuild...


pcbothwel wrote:I'd rather take a shot next year with them, or rebuild. I think Simmons keeps us where we are at, but worse, he would elongate the treadmill because it would be a new team.

I will restate my thoughts on Wall/Beal. I truly think that 20/21 Wall/Beal will be as effective & efficient as a pair as they have ever been. Yes, their games, skill set, mindset, team dynamic, etc. have all changed, but I think get the best output from this pair now than we ever have.
So it comes down to the supporting cast.... Bonga & Brown both see the floor and contribute in a number of ways that keep the gears oiled... and Rui/Bryant have the offensive skill set that either could simply go off for a 30 point game and they cant be stopped.
Add in Bertans and the 9th pick, and I think you have an interesting team that could do some things in a shortened season with half the league strapped for cash.

Let's leave Ben out of it for a moment.

What could possibly give you the idea that we can "take a shot" at anything next year?

We won 49 & 43 games in 2 successive seasons when we had truly outstanding seasons from Otto Porter & a well above average Center in Marcin Gortat. That was the peak, the incredible high point we reached. The nose bleed achievement.

In our one other good season over the Wall era we had Paul Pierce & we had Rasual Butler's 2.5 month stud-all-star impersonation.

In other words... meh. Nothin' special. Nice to be over .500 after the dismal period that preceded it. But, that's in the past -- since then we've been pretty awful.

So... take a team that went 25-46, add back John Wall & a rookie, & we are suddenly going to "do some things?" No. Sorry. We're not. We're going to be a bad team next year. Sub-.500. No playoffs -- or maybe a cup of coffee in R1 since we are in the weaker conference by far.

I left out Ben Simmons, because acquiring him for Brad Beal wouldn't change the above by much if at all -- despite the fact that he is a more productive NBA player than Brad. What it would do, however, is make us younger. We are a rebuilding team. The younger we are the better.

"Rebuilding" -- you know how many guys who will be on the Wizards for 2020 were with the team 2 years ago? Exactly two -- John Wall & Brad Beal.


You seem to be overthinking my position on this. Lets step back:
- The league in a very peculiar time both operationally and financially. I think that may benefit us next year in performance.
- The 2020 draft class appears weak at the top, so no need to move Beal
- Beal looks to be taking another leap and has given ZERO indication that he wants to leave
- Wall looks to be in tremendous shape and dedicated, but because he has yet to get on the court combined with my first point, his Trade Value is net negative.
- Brown, Bonga, Bryant, Rui, and our 9th pick are all interesting assets that would benefit from playing meaningful basketball. Both for their development, and for our ability to figure out what they are truly capable of.

Im not sure many disagree with the above. So, I'd like to see the young guys play some good basketball with Wall & Beal to see what this team is made of during a time when the league needs to get back to baseline. Simultaneously, Wall proves that he isnt cooked and Beal continues to be Beal...or maybe even better. Either way, their trade value either increases or stays the same.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1794 » by prime1time » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:16 pm

Beal talk is kind of silly right now. Barring a completely one-sided deal there is no way we trade him before we can see him and Wall on the court together. I know it's fun to create trades, but they need to based on reality. I think we hold pat to be honest. Make our draft picks, resign Bertans and maybe make some moves here and there and see how far this team can go.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1795 » by payitforward » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:23 am

nate33 wrote:I agree with Doc. A Beal trade is not happening. They're not adhering to any sort of grand plan with a title run X years down the road. They're just going to try to get incrementally better, year after year, and maybe at some point in the future, they'll have the assets to go all in on a contending team.

So look for them to try and develop their young talent and maybe acquire future picks. They'll look to make smart cap room acquisitions like the Bertans one when another team is in distress. (The mistake they made is not capitalizing on Bertans' value and getting a 1st round pick for him at the Trade Deadline.)

The blueprint is Toronto, Denver, Utah or San Antonio. Just be smart and hit lots of singles and doubles. Don't swing for the fences so much because you'll usually strike out.

It's always hard for a fan to accept this, for me as much as anyone, but not only is there no "grand plan with a title run X years down the road," but any focus at all on winning a title or even contending for one is tertiary at best, marginal.

The Wizards are a product sold to the public by Monumental Sports. As with any product, the focus is on sales & margins: that's what all the plans are about.

Of course, you need to keep the public interested in your product, & the better it is the easier it is to keep them interested. It's very like the quality of the food: the better the food is the easier it is to sell. Of course, you don't want to over-spend on the food -- as I say, it's sales & margin.

You also don't want to over-promise. If you tell the fans that the burgers are as good as steaks, they'll be disappointed when they find that, no, they are not. It's the same with being a "contender." As long as the team is respectable -- make the playoffs every couple of years or maybe a bit more often than that -- the customers will be happy.

Now, if we were Boston or the Lakers, no. Fans there are used to contending for titles & sometimes winning them: if the Lakers won 49 games every year & got bounced from the playoffs in R2 -- which for us was a high point, the best we'd done in many decades! -- Lakers fans would be complaining that the quality of the product had gone down!

That's not the Washington Wizards. In fact, no more need be grasped than the above in order to explain why, as nate points out, we didn't bother to capitalize on Bertans' perceived value by scoring a R1 pick for him at the deadline.

In a parallel way, it explains why Wizards fans think Bertans is really good, when in fact he isn't particularly good at all. Similarly, it explains why both Wall & Beal -- who are really good players -- are nonetheless significantly overrated by those same Wizards fans.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1796 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:43 am

prime1time wrote:Beal talk is kind of silly right now. Barring a completely one-sided deal there is no way we trade him before we can see him and Wall on the court together. I know it's fun to create trades, but they need to based on reality. I think we hold pat to be honest. Make our draft picks, resign Bertans and maybe make some moves here and there and see how far this team can go.



:nod:

Do this, instead. http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y3pk85ul
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1797 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:50 am

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:I agree with Doc. A Beal trade is not happening. They're not adhering to any sort of grand plan with a title run X years down the road. They're just going to try to get incrementally better, year after year, and maybe at some point in the future, they'll have the assets to go all in on a contending team.

So look for them to try and develop their young talent and maybe acquire future picks. They'll look to make smart cap room acquisitions like the Bertans one when another team is in distress. (The mistake they made is not capitalizing on Bertans' value and getting a 1st round pick for him at the Trade Deadline.)

The blueprint is Toronto, Denver, Utah or San Antonio. Just be smart and hit lots of singles and doubles. Don't swing for the fences so much because you'll usually strike out.

It's always hard for a fan to accept this, for me as much as anyone, but not only is there no "grand plan with a title run X years down the road," but any focus at all on winning a title or even contending for one is tertiary at best, marginal.

The Wizards are a product sold to the public by Monumental Sports. As with any product, the focus is on sales & margins: that's what all the plans are about.

Of course, you need to keep the public interested in your product, & the better it is the easier it is to keep them interested. It's very like the quality of the food: the better the food is the easier it is to sell. Of course, you don't want to over-spend on the food -- as I say, it's sales & margin.

You also don't want to over-promise. If you tell the fans that the burgers are as good as steaks, they'll be disappointed when they find that, no, they are not. It's the same with being a "contender." As long as the team is respectable -- make the playoffs every couple of years or maybe a bit more often than that -- the customers will be happy.

Now, if we were Boston or the Lakers, no. Fans there are used to contending for titles & sometimes winning them: if the Lakers won 49 games every year & got bounced from the playoffs in R2 -- which for us was a high point, the best we'd done in many decades! -- Lakers fans would be complaining that the quality of the product had gone down!

That's not the Washington Wizards. In fact, no more need be grasped than the above in order to explain why, as nate points out, we didn't bother to capitalize on Bertans' perceived value by scoring a R1 pick for him at the deadline.

In a parallel way, it explains why Wizards fans think Bertans is really good, when in fact he isn't particularly good at all. Similarly, it explains why both Wall & Beal -- who are really good players -- are nonetheless significantly overrated by those same Wizards fans.



They are significantly overrated, yet they're both really good. Beal is slightly better IMO and is younger.

Chris Paul is old but still underrated. Very similar to Rashard Lewis for Gilbert Arenas, if I were a GM, I'd trade Paul for Wall because of the one LESS year on the contract AND BECAUSE I'm sure I'm getting value in return. Paul is still better than Wall and I'd expect him to be healthy at least a year or two on his three remaining years. He's ball dominant but a FAR LESS USAGE player than Wall.

OKC needs to lose Paul in order for SGA to shine. I think SGA would shine better along fellow Kentucky Wildcat, John Wall. Instead of Simmons/Beal, I'd go Paul for Beal. CP3 was an all star this season in the West. He's proven. Wall is a question mark with 4 years coming, guaranteed.


Not hating on Wall. Just seeing that CP3 might be a better option even at age 35.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1798 » by nate33 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:51 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
prime1time wrote:Beal talk is kind of silly right now. Barring a completely one-sided deal there is no way we trade him before we can see him and Wall on the court together. I know it's fun to create trades, but they need to based on reality. I think we hold pat to be honest. Make our draft picks, resign Bertans and maybe make some moves here and there and see how far this team can go.



:nod:

Do this, instead. http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y3pk85ul

Paul is better than Wall, cheaper than Wall, and has a shorter contract. Why would OKC trade him for Wall?

This might have made sense before this season, but Paul has shown that he's still an elite player who knows how to win.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1799 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:20 am

nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Do this, instead. http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y3pk85ul

Paul is better than Wall, cheaper than Wall, and has a shorter contract. Why would OKC trade him for Wall?

This might have made sense before this season, but Paul has shown that he's still an elite player who knows how to win.



Paul better than Wall? He's also five-and-a-half years older than Wall. Thirty-five vs about to be thirty.

Shorter deal and why this? Because it moves a soon-to-be disgruntled Chris Paul to a team that's in more of a win-now mode. It moves a pretty pricey contract in Shroeder. It allows encumbent Shai Gilgeous-Alexander to take more of the lead as Wall works his way back as a distributor, exactly what SGA needs at this time in his career. One thing Wall will do better than Paul is push the ball faster.

This only makes sense WHEN Paul wants to be moved.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1800 » by pcbothwel » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:29 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Do this, instead. http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y3pk85ul

Paul is better than Wall, cheaper than Wall, and has a shorter contract. Why would OKC trade him for Wall?

This might have made sense before this season, but Paul has shown that he's still an elite player who knows how to win.



Paul better than Wall? He's also five-and-a-half years older than Wall. Thirty-five vs about to be thirty.

Shorter deal and why this? Because it moves a soon-to-be disgruntled Chris Paul to a team that's in more of a win-now mode. It moves a pretty pricey contract in Shroeder. It allows encumbent Shai Gilgeous-Alexander to take more of the lead as Wall works his way back as a distributor, exactly what SGA needs at this time in his career. One thing Wall will do better than Paul is push the ball faster.

This only makes sense WHEN Paul wants to be moved.


I have to agree with Nate on this one... It doesnt make sense for OKC to make that trade. However, all it takes is a hot start from Wall and CP3 to pull a hammy before that calculation shifts, but again, OKC might not be the best partner as they already have SGA waiting in the wings to shift back from SG.

I'd keep my eye on the Knicks... I could see a package built around Randle's terrible contract and filler (Frank, Gibson, DSJ, Knox, Payton, etc.) to put Wall with RJ Barrett and their 2020 pick (Wiseman?) to try and attract a FA.

My other two teams to watch... Orlando (If Fultz doesnt improve) and the Hornets (Batum & Rozier).

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