Political Roundtable Part XXXI

[dobrojim]

For a little while I thought I didn't properly understand the meaning of Ad hominem so I looked it up
and discovered I had a fair understanding.

adjective
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"vicious ad hominem attacks"
adverb
1.
in a way that is directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"these points come from some of our best information sources, who realize they'll be attacked ad hominem"
2.
in a way that relates to or is associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

Admittedly without doing a comprehensive review of who said what, my general recollection
is that the attacks in question were not specifically directed at another poster.

I apologize to BSilver for any post I made that failed to be appropriately civil to him
or that strayed into the realm of ad hominem.
I've read his posts long enough to recognize him as what I jokingly refer to as a
"raging moderate" and I have many friends I would describe similarly so I hope that
isn't received as a pejorative.

I do not take strong exception to most negative descriptions of elected GOP
representatives. I can't remember the last time many of them made a good faith
argument in support of their position in a policy discussion.

[pancakes3]

it's an ad hom when we say that Ted is Suck or that someone is a homer, bandwagoner, or any number of other insults that get bandied about this SPORTS FORUM. but somehow this thread is hallowed ground upon which we need to demonstrate decorum and restraint?

the problem over the insults isn't really about courage, honor, or whatever. the problem is that some people here have made their political affiliation such a vital part of their identity, consciously or not, that they can only react emotionally or take things personally. like Nate's completely abandoned this thread because he's tired of being called an idiot but i guarantee you if i start responding to all of his basketball posts by calling him an idiot, he won't quit the basketball threads. a) he's not an idiot, and is able to think and articulate rationally about basketball. b) he has less of an emotional tie to his identity as a basketball fan than he does being a republican.

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=cWB7IRSecQ5_s5XfgbBRew

[dobrojim]

Oh if only they ^ could hear what they are actually saying.

I can sympathize with a quick reaction to what this guy says
that he is not terribly bright. But he knows what team he's on.

[montestewart]

If Republicans were not irresponsible pieces of garbage, you’re right there would be substantial solutions to prevent this type of stuff from happening. But of course they can’t, because they would just expose Trump’s criminality. They will just turn this into a circus. These **** are so beholden to a clown that keeps losing for them it defies any logic

Now i feel bad about even asking a question earlier. Pancakes calls me a "piece of crap" and now you call me "an irresponsible piece of garbage." Nice thread. Monte - Are you okay with the immature and ignorant ad hominem?

I agree completely. There are far too many ad hominem attacks here and nothing is done to stop the offenders. Maybe if you complained directly to an admin, some action would be taken.

On the current affairs board, they don’t allow the types of broad characterizations that we sometimes let slide around here, where we instead encourage civility and discourage personal attacks on the fellow Wiz board members, or even visitors.

I haven’t been able to keep up with the Wizards board in recent months due to a variety of circumstances. And I stop in and see some of you have been trashing my pal Popper. Stop it. You know better. It violates RealGM terms of service, which means it isn’t even our internal rule.

No personal attacks against Popper, TCM, Nate (especially do not attack a mod), or anyone else. Read some of doclinkin’s politics posts for models of persuasive and civil disagreement. If you are about to hit send on a harshly written reply, pause and ask yourself, “What would doc do?”

I know you all are smart, and generally pretty nice. Sometimes we just have to accept that people we like, or even love, are not going to see things our way. I’ve never found name-calling to be an effective means of political persuasion, and believe me, I’ve tried.

Sorry Popper. Peace out

[dckingsfan]

I very much appreciate your comments bsilver. You obviously are a person of courage and sense of fairness. You set a great example for your family, our country and all that are wise enough to hear you. Over the last 10 or 12 years on this thread I've gone from an interest and desire to discuss important issues, to disappointment that others prefer to personally trash those that might deviate from progressive dogma, to resignation that political dialectic is no longer even possible here (without enduring ignorant ad hominem attacks). It's sad and doesn't offer much hope for our country's tolerance for honest debate (which IMO is vital to our collective future) or provide our progeny with the examples they will need to forge a decent future for themselves.

Are the words courage and fairness used to justify poor behavior. Note: 20 years ago we had the forever wars + tax cuts. That could be discussed - but how did that work out for us?

Now we have a group actively trying to undermine democracy with the big lie and then defending January 6th. The Rs in house are a POS. Is it courageous and fair that we let them have air to pass disinformation?

Those that are defending Trump or those are defending those congressman in the house are playing their role in undermining democracy. Or maybe I am missing something. In DETAIL (no appeal to ignorance), tell me how they are not traders to democracy?

There is no honest debate with the supporters of the big lie and January 6th - do you get that? This is harsh and in a sense a personal attack. I am attacking your stance (or lack thereof) on one of the most important issues in recent times.

[popper]

I very much appreciate your comments bsilver. You obviously are a person of courage and sense of fairness. You set a great example for your family, our country and all that are wise enough to hear you. Over the last 10 or 12 years on this thread I've gone from an interest and desire to discuss important issues, to disappointment that others prefer to personally trash those that might deviate from progressive dogma, to resignation that political dialectic is no longer even possible here (without enduring ignorant ad hominem attacks). It's sad and doesn't offer much hope for our country's tolerance for honest debate (which IMO is vital to our collective future) or provide our progeny with the examples they will need to forge a decent future for themselves.

Are the words courage and fairness used to justify poor behavior. Note: 20 years ago we had the forever wars + tax cuts. That could be discussed - but how did that work out for us?

Now we have a group actively trying to undermine democracy with the big lie and then defending January 6th. The Rs in house are a POS. Is it courageous and fair that we let them have air to pass disinformation?

Those that are defending Trump or those are defending those congressman in the house are playing their role in undermining democracy. Or maybe I am missing something. In DETAIL (no appeal to ignorance), tell me how they are not traders to democracy?

There is no honest debate with the supporters of the big lie and January 6th - do you get that? This is harsh and in a sense a personal attack. I am attacking your stance (or lack thereof) on one of the most important issues in recent times.

Your argument regarding Jan 6 is not with me dck. I condemn the riot and anyone who supported it.

[dckingsfan]

I very much appreciate your comments bsilver. You obviously are a person of courage and sense of fairness. You set a great example for your family, our country and all that are wise enough to hear you. Over the last 10 or 12 years on this thread I've gone from an interest and desire to discuss important issues, to disappointment that others prefer to personally trash those that might deviate from progressive dogma, to resignation that political dialectic is no longer even possible here (without enduring ignorant ad hominem attacks). It's sad and doesn't offer much hope for our country's tolerance for honest debate (which IMO is vital to our collective future) or provide our progeny with the examples they will need to forge a decent future for themselves.

Are the words courage and fairness used to justify poor behavior. Note: 20 years ago we had the forever wars + tax cuts. That could be discussed - but how did that work out for us?

Now we have a group actively trying to undermine democracy with the big lie and then defending January 6th. The Rs in house are a POS. Is it courageous and fair that we let them have air to pass disinformation?

Those that are defending Trump or those are defending those congressman in the house are playing their role in undermining democracy. Or maybe I am missing something. In DETAIL (no appeal to ignorance), tell me how they are not traders to democracy?

There is no honest debate with the supporters of the big lie and January 6th - do you get that? This is harsh and in a sense a personal attack. I am attacking your stance (or lack thereof) on one of the most important issues in recent times.

Your argument regarding Jan 6 is not with me dck. I condemn the riot and anyone who supported it.

Of course it is - you support the party that supports the rioters (Trump and the House Congressman & Congresswomen).

This is called cognitive dissonance.

[montestewart]

Are the words courage and fairness used to justify poor behavior. Note: 20 years ago we had the forever wars + tax cuts. That could be discussed - but how did that work out for us?

Now we have a group actively trying to undermine democracy with the big lie and then defending January 6th. The Rs in house are a POS. Is it courageous and fair that we let them have air to pass disinformation?

Those that are defending Trump or those are defending those congressman in the house are playing their role in undermining democracy. Or maybe I am missing something. In DETAIL (no appeal to ignorance), tell me how they are not traders to democracy?

There is no honest debate with the supporters of the big lie and January 6th - do you get that? This is harsh and in a sense a personal attack. I am attacking your stance (or lack thereof) on one of the most important issues in recent times.

Your argument regarding Jan 6 is not with me dck. I condemn the riot and anyone who supported it.

Of course it is - you support the party that supports the rioters (Trump and the House Congressman & Congresswomen).

This is called cognitive dissonance.

dck makes a good point. Supporters of election denial and the assault on the Capitol, including President Trump and virtually all those close to him, and virtually all members of Republican party leadership at the federal, state, and local level, who refused to condemn these activities, or condemn them with light slap on the wrist comments, have made the Republican Party look less like a political party, and more like a dysfunctional family (avoiding certain words that would be blocked).

The abusive bullies and their power-hungry enablers at the top have put some rank-and-file conservatives in a difficult position. Much like a family does when they find that one of their own has committed murder or sexual assault, they close ranks. When pushed, they might condemn the behavior, but not the perpetrator.

I align with the Democratic party because of policies. I doubt that will ever change. I am not a member of the Democratic party. I doubt that will ever change either. I don’t ever want to be in a position where I can’t condemn them in the strongest possible terms, and completely disassociate myself from them, if they do something that I just can’t stomach, like assaulting the Capitol and trying to overthrow the government.

[verbal8]

If we can’t call the one party that encourages and celebrates this type of behavior garbage, then I’m not sure what to say because this is only going to happen more and it’s going to get worse even taking Jan 6th into account.

It is hard to disagree when none of the elected officials have had a significant negative outcome due to January 6th. I doubt an impeachment where #MoscowMitch successfully obstructed for him, was a significant consequence for Trump. I don't think #CowardCollins even tried her weak "He learned his lesson", the second time around.

[doclinkin]

If you are about to hit send on a harshly written reply, pause and ask yourself, “What would doc do?”

Oh don't use me as a model. I'm the guy deliberately poking at Deni fans because it's fun to get them riled up

[montestewart]

If you are about to hit send on a harshly written reply, pause and ask yourself, “What would doc do?”

Oh don't use me as a model. I'm the guy deliberately poking at Deni fans because it's fun to get them riled up

Fanboys. Like fishing guns from a barrel.

[Zonkerbl]

Tone policing is a white supremacist tactic. White people like Kavanaugh can have a tempter tantrum and avoid responsibility for rape but god forbid we call anti democracy seditionists "garbage" oh my pearls

[montestewart]

Tone policing is a white supremacist tactic.

I picked it up at one of the meetings.

I take a lead from the CA board. Their mods are about as liberal as this board, like 9 doclinkins and one Nate. They just want to avoid off the rails chaos. I don’t care much about tone, just name calling. Real political discussions should have tension, or what’s the point?

It’s not like anyone’s about to be sanctioned. It took us a year to sanction STD, and Bonscott is still with us. It is looser here than on the shared boards. Carry on.

[dobrojim]

I very much appreciate your comments bsilver. You obviously are a person of courage and sense of fairness. You set a great example for your family, our country and all that are wise enough to hear you. Over the last 10 or 12 years on this thread I've gone from an interest and desire to discuss important issues, to disappointment that others prefer to personally trash those that might deviate from progressive dogma, to resignation that political dialectic is no longer even possible here (without enduring ignorant ad hominem attacks). It's sad and doesn't offer much hope for our country's tolerance for honest debate (which IMO is vital to our collective future) or provide our progeny with the examples they will need to forge a decent future for themselves.

Are the words courage and fairness used to justify poor behavior. Note: 20 years ago we had the forever wars + tax cuts. That could be discussed - but how did that work out for us?

Now we have a group actively trying to undermine democracy with the big lie and then defending January 6th. The Rs in house are a POS. Is it courageous and fair that we let them have air to pass disinformation?

Those that are defending Trump or those are defending those congressman in the house are playing their role in undermining democracy. Or maybe I am missing something. In DETAIL (no appeal to ignorance), tell me how they are not traders to democracy?

There is no honest debate with the supporters of the big lie and January 6th - do you get that? This is harsh and in a sense a personal attack. I am attacking your stance (or lack thereof) on one of the most important issues in recent times.

Your argument regarding Jan 6 is not with me dck. I condemn the riot and anyone who supported it.

That's awesome Popper. You do understand that essentially means you condemn almost, if not, the entire GOP.

[dobrojim]

I align with the Democratic party because of policies. I doubt that will ever change. I am not a member of the Democratic party. I doubt that will ever change either. I don’t ever want to be in a position where I can’t condemn them in the strongest possible terms, and completely disassociate myself from them, if they do something that I just can’t stomach, like assaulting the Capitol and trying to overthrow the government.

Bravo.

I would add to your 'do something like list', suppress voting on the bad faith pretense of election integrity.

or allow the govt to default on the debt, again on the bad faith argument that you hate spending
when what you really hate is democratic spending.

So much bad faith over the last 60 years, the list could go on for quite a while.

[Zonkerbl]

Are the words courage and fairness used to justify poor behavior. Note: 20 years ago we had the forever wars + tax cuts. That could be discussed - but how did that work out for us?

Now we have a group actively trying to undermine democracy with the big lie and then defending January 6th. The Rs in house are a POS. Is it courageous and fair that we let them have air to pass disinformation?

Those that are defending Trump or those are defending those congressman in the house are playing their role in undermining democracy. Or maybe I am missing something. In DETAIL (no appeal to ignorance), tell me how they are not traders to democracy?

There is no honest debate with the supporters of the big lie and January 6th - do you get that? This is harsh and in a sense a personal attack. I am attacking your stance (or lack thereof) on one of the most important issues in recent times.

Your argument regarding Jan 6 is not with me dck. I condemn the riot and anyone who supported it.

That's awesome Popper. You do understand that essentially means you condemn almost, if not, the entire GOP.

How many Republicans have the guts to stand up and agree with Popper? The ones that have, have been kicked out of office or the party entirely

[Zonkerbl]

Tone policing is a white supremacist tactic.

I picked it up at one of the meetings.

I take a lead from the CA board. Their mods are about as liberal as this board, like 9 doclinkins and one Nate. They just want to avoid off the rails chaos. I don’t care much about tone, just name calling. Real political discussions should have tension, or what’s the point?

It’s not like anyone’s about to be sanctioned. It took us a year to sanction STD, and Bonscott is still with us. It is looser here than on the shared boards. Carry on.

Oh yeah I'm the one most guilty of deliberately taking wild home run swings with my verbal bat with the intention of causing as much mental pain as possible, because sometimes what people need is a verbal knuckle sandwich to knock the stupid out of them. I will say that insults don't work very well, they just cause turtles to pull their heads in their shells where you can't get to them. Have to be smart about it.

I'm not going to experience any mental pain from someone telling me to know my place because I'm a subhuman liberal. And if you pull that stunt on me I will smack you down hard (verbally) and I won't feel the slightest bit sorry about doing so.

[dobrojim]

The deepest learning occurs in response to being uncomfortable.

[Zonkerbl]

The deepest learning occurs in response to being uncomfortable.

What a nice way of putting it!

[pancakes3]

Florida rejects AP Course on African American History, stating that the course violates the state's STOP WOKE act. Desantis then made the heads of Florida’s 28 state colleges pledged that they would not fund any program “that compels belief in critical race theory or related concepts such as intersectionality.”

Critical Race Theory is “an academic and legal framework that denotes that systemic racism is part of American society," as per the NAACP.

Intersectionality describes the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.

So let's break down what DeSantis is doing here:

1 - Codified language into law that Florida can't teach CRT
2 - Put in place administrators that will enforce these laws, and exercise their judgment to enforce these laws
3 - The materials that would fall under CRT can interpreted to be narrow or broad, which is why step 2 is so important.
4 - Step 2 pays additional dividends because now administrators are going above and beyond - pledging to not only put a stop to CRT but RELATED CONCEPTS as well - related concepts such as intersectionality... which, again, can be read to include any and all social categorizations.
5 - Florida has now put in place a system where they can censor education on the basis of the materials containing any reference to any social categorization.

Like, yes, states have functional autonomy on how to run their education system. However, we have seen what happens when politicians set the curriculum, instead of letting educators set it. The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes, commonly referred to as the Scopes Monkey Trial, took place about a HUNDRED YEARS AGO in 1925, was over a teacher, Mr. Scopes, violating Tennessee's Butler Act, which had made it illegal for teachers to teach human evolution in any state-funded school.

As much as Republicans love to say that libs are brainwashing their children, I really don't see how any rational citizen of Florida can stand for this. DeSantis and crew keep saying that there needs to be diversity in the classroom, that certain viewpoints are being suppressed. The rhetoric hints at that there needs to be a balanced discussion on race, history, etc. However, Florida just rejected an AP class, which is an elective, and the curriculum is vetted such that it is eligible for college credit. Sure seems like censorship to me. Sure sounds like how many schools in the South still refer to the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression, and that it was fought over states' rights, and that the quality of life for many slaves actually got worse after emancipation. Sure sounds like how Virginia kept Lee Jackson King day on the books up until 2000. Sure sounds like how I went to a middle school named after a segregationist, and a high school named after a different segregationist.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/outcry-grows-after-florida-rejects-ap-african-american-studies-course