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Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

What grade would you give Ernie Grunfeld today?

A
16
19%
B
20
23%
C
12
14%
D
14
16%
F
20
23%
Incomplete
4
5%
 
Total votes: 86

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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#181 » by Dat2U » Sun Oct 3, 2010 4:58 am

MJG wrote:I think EG is about as "C" as you can get. He's made great moves and he's made awful moves and he's made moves everywhere in between..... but going as far up to a B or down to a D seems silly.


Why is it so unreasonable to give Ernie a D? It's like folks are so set on grading him on a curve b/c of the Bullets/Wizards past history. Hold any schmuck up to the monumental disasters that proceeded him in Wes Unseld and MJ and they'll look pretty damn respectable. Outside of maybe the Clippers, no GM with a history like EG's over the last 7 years as Ernie would have been cut so much slack or still have been employed.

02-03: 25-57 .305
03-04: 45-37 .549
04-05: 42-40 .512
05-06: 41-41 .500
06-07: 43-39 .524
07-08: 19-63 .232
08-09: 26-56 .317
TOTAL: 241-333 .420

In the EG era, the Wizards have won at a 42% clip in a conference that has been widely criticized as being inferior over the same period of time. His teams have made it to the playoffs exactly 3 times in 7 years and have never won a 2nd round game. How exactly is the C-level quality???

His best team was SIX YEARS AGO! We've also just endured one of the most embarrassing seasons in NBA history under his watch. One left a franchise with a black eye and returned us to laughingstock status. The culture he fostered was one that ignored accountability and allowed players egos to go unchecked. He watched and sat by as the locker room disintegrated over the past two years. He covered for Arenas for so many years that he helped create an environment were Gil could actually think that bringing guns in the locker room as a practical joke wasn't the stupidest idea in the world.

And your telling me that its silly to grade him so harshly? Really???

Are we so blinded by those fleeting moments of mediocrity that we are willing ignore all the collateral damage done under his regime?
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#182 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Oct 3, 2010 12:41 pm

The 19-63 season (1-10 Eddie Jordan, 18-53 Ed Tapscott) I believe EG should have been fired.

The Wizards had a top-5 payroll IIRC. I remember predicting reinjury before EG signed Gil to his new deal. The whole up-against-the cap with injured player and guys who don't play defense (outside of Haywood) is something I predicted years ago. EG in my eyes paid too much for mediocrity and didn't draft defensive players.

Too often, he would draft a Pecherov instead of a Paul Millsap. I predicted Millsap would be better than Shelden Williams, why couldn't EG at least consider it? I posted that here starting December of Millsap's draft. EG finally came around to scouting the D-league, but in the past I have noticed the play of guys like Azubuike, Sessions, and Reggie Williams (who I said was way better than my guy Mo Almond) well before they got called up. EG didnt' do that in the past.

The past is a good predictor of future behavior. EG hasn't thrilled me in the past beyond 10 months ago...(including most of what he did in Milwaukee, but not so much his NY years, where he was decent). So, I feel like EG has serious limitations as a GM.

Regardless, I get really down looking at what people do wrong. It's too easy. I would much rather be enthused by promise, potential, and recalling what they've done right. EG did pick talent that I didn't see in both Young and McGee. He totally stole Andray Blatche. Over time Andray could go down as one of the greatest players ever at 49 or later. (Not as great as Ginobili!). I trust EG's eye for talent. I'm giving him benefit of a doubt on Seraphin, even Yi, and though he doesn't look great, Booker.

I'll give EG his C, and hope for the best.

I think defense and toughness in the guys he brought in (including Hinrich and possibly Hudson, Martin, or Hamady with the three mentioned) should bode well.

I'm not at all blinded by mediocrity, Dat. I just accept that EG survived what should have been a firing years back. Grunfeld's been mediocre, but that scores a C in my book.

THE REST IS ON FLIP SAUNDERS. I want to start a Grade Flip Saunders thread. Last season, I would have given Flip no better than a D. This season, with talent with Wall and Gill and the rest, Flip better coach them up or he and Ernie can go as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#183 » by MJG » Sun Oct 3, 2010 1:48 pm

Dat2U wrote:
MJG wrote:I think EG is about as "C" as you can get. He's made great moves and he's made awful moves and he's made moves everywhere in between..... but going as far up to a B or down to a D seems silly.
In the EG era, the Wizards have won at a 42% clip in a conference that has been widely criticized as being inferior over the same period of time. His teams have made it to the playoffs exactly 3 times in 7 years and have never won a 2nd round game. How exactly is the C-level quality???

Okay, well, I'll slightly take back what I said: I shouldn't call someone's rating on an undefined subjective grading scale "silly". For example, I wouldn't even think of "2nd round playoff victories" as a possible bullet point in a C vs D discussion, let alone a key point worth bringing up.

My playoff criteria for C vs D would be something more along the lines of "Made the playoffs more often than missed the playoffs". So, EG's teams making the playoff 4 of 7 seasons gives him a definite C for me in that category, probably even trending towards the C+ range (sort of a lower-upper-middle class type of deal), considering we did make the second round once. Even if it were 3 seasons like you say, that would still get a C from me, except then it'd be leaning towards a C- (upper-lower-middle class). On the full grading scale, for the playoff success category, I'd have something like:

A: Made the playoffs most of the time, usually competitive beyond round two
B: Made the playoffs most of the time, usually competitive in rounds one and two
C: Made the playoffs more often than missed the playoffs, but generally not competitive
D: Generally competed for playoffs, maybe even snuck in once
F: Rarely if ever competed for playoffs

By pure extrapolation, I'd guess you have something more like:

A: Playoffs, competitive in round four
B: Playoffs, competitive in round three
C: Playoffs, competitive in round two
D: Playoffs, competitive in round one
F: Anything less than [D]

Even if that's not quite right, the basic premise is still true, that we couldn't possibly agree on a grade, because we're using different scales. I'm sure it's the same for most everyone else here. And this is just one particular category! I'm sure we all have similarly different scales for drafting, free agency, win-loss record, etc.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#184 » by closg00 » Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:57 pm


Wizards Faithful,

You experienced with your own eyes (and ears) what I've been telling you for months--the Wizards are stocked with young talent that will be heard and felt by the NBA sooner rather than later. The Wizards are simply too talented and too hungry to be treated like the redheaded stepchildren of the Southeast division. They will apply their strengths (quickness, length, athleticism, uber talent) against the weaknesses (a cap-busting contract, alpha male uncertainty, lack of depth, Kwame Brown) of their division foes and let the chips fall where they may. I say the chips will fall squarely on the part of the NBA board marked "playoff berth"!

Even the chronically tone-deaf among us had to like the first few bars of the masterpiece written and composed by Ernest Grunfeld and provided for your listening pleasure last night. To the haters: Learn how to make the music come to life in your head based on the notes you see on the music sheet. What a shame it is to recognize brilliance only after the music is played!

In Grunfeld We Trust!!

Posted by: melodious_thunk | October 6, 2010 1:37 PM


:D The latest gem from melodious/Rico on the Post Blog.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#185 » by LyricalRico » Wed Oct 6, 2010 11:47 pm

:o

Wow! I really outdid...I mean HE really outdid himself with that one. Just a thing of beauty that brought a tear to my eye. Go Wiz!
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#186 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Oct 7, 2010 2:42 am

LR, 50 wins isn't out of the question.

This roster just needs to stay healthy. It could be a perfect storm of players realizing their potential in contract years, redemptive years, or as first-year starters. Yi looks like a baller. Hinrich is definitely going to be a solid contributor. Redemption for him would be to show the Bulls what they gave up. Gil in a limited role just needs to keep hitting shots, easy for him if he stays healthy, and he's redeemed in a big way. McGee but also Blatche as first-year starters will kick butt, I'm fairly sure already. Howard coming back in time to earn his next contract is a pretty fair bet. And you've got scrappers on the bench. Seraphin, Booker, and Hudson (dude's going to make the team).

John Wall is where EG and Flip really lucked out. Damn that guy is good. (I wanted Cousins but even after the 16/16 game which pretty much proves to me that Demarcus is a 20/12 player right away--Wall is better.)

When the Wizards do make the playoffs your boy, LR, is going to be looking golden and might have a shot at Executive of the Year.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#187 » by gesa2 » Thu Oct 7, 2010 2:42 am

Yeah that one by melodious was so lyrical that I showed it to my teenage daughter who doesn't follow basketball at all.
Making extreme statements like "only" sounds like there are "no" Jokics in this draft? Jokic is an engine that was drafted in the 2nd round. Always a chance to see diamond dropped by sloppy burgular after a theft.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#188 » by closg00 » Thu Oct 7, 2010 2:47 am

gesa2 wrote:Yeah that one by melodious was so lyrical that I showed it to my teenage daughter who doesn't follow basketball at all.


This is my favorite passage:
The Wizards are simply too talented and too hungry to be treated like the redheaded stepchildren of the Southeast division.


I love that :)
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#189 » by leswizards » Fri Oct 8, 2010 2:30 pm

This offseason, EG has been bashed for wasting cap space on Kirk and Yi, and for drafting Booker and Kevin too high, and for wasting a roster space on Ammo.

After only 2 preseason games, Kirk and Yi are not looking like wasted cap space. Instead, they are looking like they might actually be quite valueable players this season. Booker looked decent in his only preseason performance, and quite worthy of a late first round pick.

It is very early, but if these trends continue, a few EG haters might want to reconsider their evaluation of EG.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#190 » by JonathanJoseph » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:54 am

Through 4 preseason games, Grunfeld's summer is looking awfully good so far.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#191 » by closg00 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:24 pm

Dat2U wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote:So go ahead and be specific about what you would have done (even with the benefit of retrospect) and we'll see what happens.


What I would have done.

Draft:
#1 - PG John Wall
#30 - CE Hassan Whiteside
#35 - CE Solomon Alabi

Trade1:
#25 - SG Dominique Jones for $3 mil cash & future 2nd.

Trade2:
CE Samuel Dalembert / SF Thaddeus Young for SG Nick Young

Other potential targets: PF Anthony Randolph / SF Xavier Henry

Free agency:

Resign Shaun Livingston 3 yrs - $11 million
Resign James Singleton for VET minimum
Resign Cartier Martin for VET minimum
Sign Richard Hendrix for VET minimum

New roster:

PF Andray Blatche / James Singleton / Richard Hendrix
SF Thaddeus Young / Al Thornton / Cartier Martin
CE Samuel Dalembert / Javale McGee / Solomon Alabi / Hassan Whiteside
SG Gilbert Arenas / Dominique Jones / Quinton Ross
PG John Wall / Shaun Livingston


What do you think of your plan today now that Pre-season is just about over?
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#192 » by LyricalRico » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:33 pm

^ I just think it's tough to look back and say what a team "should" have done, when you have no idea if the other entities involved would have agreed to be part of the scenario. You can't Jedi-mind-trick other teams/players into agreeing to all of your ideas. Those things might not have even been on the table.

But since this is a message board and we deal in fantasy, I'll play along. Looking at Dat's plan, I can see taking Alabi at #35. I don't think anybody predicted he'd fall as far as he did, but if we were still sitting at #35 and he was there, it would have been a solid value. But I don't see the need for Whiteside at #30 because he's so similar to McGee. I'm ambivalent on acquiring Jones.

As for the Philly deal, I'm not sure they go for that. It would have been financially more beneficial for Philly than the one they eventually got from Sacto, but got a big back in Hawes and they got to keep Young. Some would rate Hawes+Young as more important than a few mil more in cap space. Yes they have a logjam at SF but I really do think Doug Collins is envisioning a small line up where guys like Thad Young and Noc play some PF. I don't expect it to work, but I think that's what he wants. I think it's a toss-up at best that this deal would have happened over the deal with the Kings.

Finally, Livingston re-signing with the Wiz was a pipe-dream from the moment we won the lottery. Livingston is in a perfect situation in Charlotte where he's competing with DJ Augustin and has every opportunity to be the starter. Why would he pass that up to be a perennial backup to the next franchise cornerstone?
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#193 » by TheBigThree » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:31 pm

Jamison is officially a 6th man. Another score for EG. Although I think he should have made the move one year earlier, I can't really blame him for wanting to try Gil, Caron and AJ one more time.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#194 » by hands11 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:17 am

LyricalRico wrote:^ I just think it's tough to look back and say what a team "should" have done, when you have no idea if the other entities involved would have agreed to be part of the scenario. You can't Jedi-mind-trick other teams/players into agreeing to all of your ideas. Those things might not have even been on the table.

But since this is a message board and we deal in fantasy, I'll play along. Looking at Dat's plan, I can see taking Alabi at #35. I don't think anybody predicted he'd fall as far as he did, but if we were still sitting at #35 and he was there, it would have been a solid value. But I don't see the need for Whiteside at #30 because he's so similar to McGee. I'm ambivalent on acquiring Jones.

As for the Philly deal, I'm not sure they go for that. It would have been financially more beneficial for Philly than the one they eventually got from Sacto, but got a big back in Hawes and they got to keep Young. Some would rate Hawes+Young as more important than a few mil more in cap space. Yes they have a logjam at SF but I really do think Doug Collins is envisioning a small line up where guys like Thad Young and Noc play some PF. I don't expect it to work, but I think that's what he wants. I think it's a toss-up at best that this deal would have happened over the deal with the Kings.

Finally, Livingston re-signing with the Wiz was a pipe-dream from the moment we won the lottery. Livingston is in a perfect situation in Charlotte where he's competing with DJ Augustin and has every opportunity to be the starter. Why would he pass that up to be a perennial backup to the next franchise cornerstone?


Dats plan to take Ababi ? Dat may have talked about Ababi, I don't recall who was posting in support of him.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#195 » by Dat2U » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:44 pm

closg00 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote:So go ahead and be specific about what you would have done (even with the benefit of retrospect) and we'll see what happens.


What I would have done.

Draft:
#1 - PG John Wall
#30 - CE Hassan Whiteside
#35 - CE Solomon Alabi

Trade1:
#25 - SG Dominique Jones for $3 mil cash & future 2nd.

Trade2:
CE Samuel Dalembert / SF Thaddeus Young for SG Nick Young

Other potential targets: PF Anthony Randolph / SF Xavier Henry

Free agency:

Resign Shaun Livingston 3 yrs - $11 million
Resign James Singleton for VET minimum
Resign Cartier Martin for VET minimum
Sign Richard Hendrix for VET minimum

New roster:

PF Andray Blatche / James Singleton / Richard Hendrix
SF Thaddeus Young / Al Thornton / Cartier Martin
CE Samuel Dalembert / Javale McGee / Solomon Alabi / Hassan Whiteside
SG Gilbert Arenas / Dominique Jones / Quinton Ross
PG John Wall / Shaun Livingston


What do you think of your plan today now that Pre-season is just about over?


Well I'm pretty biased. But I think that team looks better than what we've got right now.

The only offseason acquisition I'm sold on thus far is John Wall. Everything else is still up in the air IMO. I'm not sold on our rookies. Our bench looks to be a major problem. We still don't have any reliable options outside of Blatche & McGee and they aren't the most reliable duo around either. We have a gaping hole at SF. So, for us to go into the offseason with $20+ mil in cap room and end up with as many question marks as we have seems just like an incredible disappointment.

I'd be more interested in other folks opinions though.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#196 » by MF23 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:55 pm

^
That Philly trade would have never had happen.

CCJ, you should be a little more subtle with your pride buddy. You've reached a lot and been inaccurate because of it.

Since he's been here EG hasn't handled the draft the way I would've. Other than the Blatche pick he hasn't done anything that left me with the impression he did better than I would have. That's just being honest. He did sign Arenas and traded for Butler. Two moves I didn't totally agree with. I wanted Jason Terry and didn't know Kwame was such a lazy a**hole.

The amount of influence Pollin had is something we will never know. I will say since Pollins passing EG has done a fabulous job. Saraphin and Booker aren't who I would have picked by I get the decisions. I'll give him a A- up to know.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#197 » by closg00 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:16 pm

MF23 - Dat proposed the Philly trade not CCJ

I am waiting until the final roster is set to submit my off-season grade.
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#198 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:42 pm

MF23 wrote:^
That Philly trade would have never had happen.

CCJ, you should be a little more subtle with your pride buddy. You've reached a lot and been inaccurate because of it.


Only if you can possibly stop hating for stuff I didn't even say. :lol:
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#199 » by MF23 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:45 pm

I know, I was pointing for the post above mine. The rest was for the thread.

Edit.

CCJ, you know I was talking about an earlier post right?
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Re: Poll: Grade Ernie Grunfeld 

Post#200 » by Ruzious » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:01 pm

LyricalRico wrote:Finally, Livingston re-signing with the Wiz was a pipe-dream from the moment we won the lottery. Livingston is in a perfect situation in Charlotte where he's competing with DJ Augustin and has every opportunity to be the starter. Why would he pass that up to be a perennial backup to the next franchise cornerstone?

I wanted to keep Livingston as much as anyone, but unfortunately, it looks like his knees are probably even more of a concern now - than they were at the end of last season. He hasn't been able to play for Charolotte, and they're not even setting a time-table for his return. Now, I'm actually kinda glad EG was (even) smarter than me and didn't try to re-sign Livingston.
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