2012 NBA Draft - Part II

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

On a different note, CCJ, I think Barnes is better than Sullinger, by a solid margin. Barnes is a better scorer, and a better defender.

I know we've talked about Tyler Zeller a bit here. The more I see his ability to run the court, his mid-range game, and his smooth ability to score in the post with either hand, the more I wonder how he would look at PF as kind of a Pau Gasol -lite. As I recall the argument going, Dat is going to hate the idea, and CCJ maybe not so much. What do you guys think?

Interesting, theboomking. You are the first person who has given Barnes such high praise.

I can understand thinking Harrison Barnes is a better scorer. He's a world-class athlete and he's improved his stroke this season, considerably. Arguably, one could say Sullinger may struggle a bit to score at the next level with anywhere near the efficiency he does in the NCAAs, due to his less-than-stellar athleticism. I am not so sure Barnes will score better, however. Also, I don't think I follow you on defense. I don't put Barnes in the class of anything more than an adequate defender.

Sullinger has an NCAA PER of 30.1 (higher than last season's #2 Derrick Williams)
Sullinger is second in NCAA Win Shares to Anthony Davis.
Sullinger is #7 in Defensive Win Shares and #8 in NCAA Defensive rating. (Note: Carlos Boozer has a high Defensive Rating as a Bull. No doubt a team affect in play here.)

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2012.html

As for Barnes, he's good, but if you look at the bottom of his player stats page and compare that with Sullinger, it is underwhelming.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla ... nes-1.html

I know I am biased against Barnes, theboomking. I don't trust my objectivity with him, because I've seen him disappear too many times. Basically, every time I watch Carolina I end up watching Tyler Zeller.

I love Tyler Zeller's game at PF or C.

That guy is what the Wizards lack: A scoring big who can run the court with Wall. Man, I love Zeller's game. Oh, I said that already.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla ... ler-1.html

On the link above, you'll see that Tyler Zeller leads the ACC in PER and he's among the NCAA leaders in offensive rebounds.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

No risk pick: Marcus Denmon in round 2.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch ... /2012.html



http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz1o0a79vx9

Denmon's efficiency stems from his high skill-level and excellent shot selection. Over two thirds of his shots last season came on jumpers according to Synergy Sports Technology, the majority of which came with his feet set. Denmon converted a blistering 47.5% of his those, ranking him amongst the best spot-up shooters in college basketball. He gets excellent elevation on his jumper and has NBA range, showing fluid, consistent shooting mechanics. This is a skill that should translate immediately to the professional level.

More than just a one-dimensional shooter, Denmon also converted a spectacular 54.4% from inside of the arc, ranking as an elite finisher among NCAA shooting guard prospects last year. He is at his best both running the floor and finishing in transition, using his quickness and aggressiveness to get to the basket. He lacks great size even at this level, and is not a terribly explosive leaper, but has excellent body control, the ability to finish with either hand, and excellent toughness around the basket.

The thing I like about Denmon is he makes almost 3 3-pt shots a game and is a career 40% NCAA 3-pt shooter. Unlike Harrison Barnes, who makes very few because he only takes a few, Denmon has true deep range at all times.

Missouri is 1st out of 344 NCAA D1 teams in offensive rating. Denmon has a very high PER and is a terrific offensive player who is adequate, but undersized, defensively. He makes sense for the Wizards in round two.

I'd love to see Washington look at elite offensive players like Tyler Zeller, Scott Machado, Marcus Denmon, Reggie Hamilton, and John Jenkins in this draft. I don't see any risk with these guys if they're on the board. Zeller is a guy they could safely MOVE DOWN in the draft to get.

[go'stags]

Agree on Denmon 100% CCJ. Missouri has 3 players who can play and score in the league: Denmon, Pressey, and Kim English. All can shoot, are good athletes, and know how to play. Pressey is one of the quickest guys in the country.

Teams like the Spurs are showing what having a bunch of perimeter players who can hit shots does for your offense. None are top end options, but they can all put the ball in the basket efficiently. Where I am with you 100% is that this draft has a lot of guys who can do that. In addition to the guys you mentioned, Buford from Ohio State can also score. For all of his shortcomings, that guy can shoot the ball.

Mike Scott can also play in the NBA imo, maybe only as a 4th or 5th big, but he"ll find a niche. Think Dante Cunningham, but more skill. No one really thought he could play when he came out of Villanova, but he found a nice spot with the Blazers and now Grizzlies as a guy who can hit shots, play smart, and defend with effort. Thats what Mike Scott will do, but better. I'd draft him if hes available later in the second round.

[hands11]

Agree on Denmon 100% CCJ. Missouri has 3 players who can play and score in the league: Denmon, Pressey, and Kim English. All can shoot, are good athletes, and know how to play. Pressey is one of the quickest guys in the country.

Teams like the Spurs are showing what having a bunch of perimeter players who can hit shots does for your offense. None are top end options, but they can all put the ball in the basket efficiently. Where I am with you 100% is that this draft has a lot of guys who can do that. In addition to the guys you mentioned, Buford from Ohio State can also score. For all of his shortcomings, that guy can shoot the ball.

Mike Scott can also play in the NBA imo, maybe only as a 4th or 5th big, but he"ll find a niche. Think Dante Cunningham, but more skill. No one really thought he could play when he came out of Villanova, but he found a nice spot with the Blazers and now Grizzlies as a guy who can hit shots, play smart, and defend with effort. Thats what Mike Scott will do, but better. I'd draft him if hes available later in the second round.

Yeah. Most defiantly


Quincy Miller Unlikely To Declare For Draft

Lets wait and see just how good a draft class this ends up being.

[Ruzious]

Just looking at other potential under-sized 2nd round shooting guard types who can shoot the lights out, Ike Canaan of Murray State fits the bill. He's a lights out 3 point shooter. He's actually even under-sized for a PG. Presumably, these guys could play for the Wiz, because Wall is big enough to defend 2's, and these guys would defend 1's while playing the 2 on offense.

Back to Barnes, UNC's weakness this season has been 3 point shooting. Yet Barnes volume of 3's has been low - he's only third on his team in attempts! Shouldn't that be an indictment against Barnes? That's supposed to be his strength, and he hasn't done it enough to erase his team's weakness. The question is - Why hasn't he? My guess is - he hasn't done enough to stop opponents from taking away the 3 from him.

[closg00]

Not sure if I'll watch the Puke vs NC game tonight or the Wiz. I haven't seen Barnes this college hoops season.

[pcbothwel]

^^^ I have been touting Barnes all season and ill repeat what i have said before. His audition will be tonight against Duke and throughout the tourney. I am willing to throw out all my pre conceived notions about him and start fresh with him tonight and i think most of you should do the same. But we'll see

[theboomking]

Interesting, theboomking. You are the first person who has given Barnes such high praise.

I can understand thinking Harrison Barnes is a better scorer. He's a world-class athlete and he's improved his stroke this season, considerably. Arguably, one could say Sullinger may struggle a bit to score at the next level with anywhere near the efficiency he does in the NCAAs, due to his less-than-stellar athleticism. I am not so sure Barnes will score better, however. Also, I don't think I follow you on defense. I don't put Barnes in the class of anything more than an adequate defender.

Sullinger has an NCAA PER of 30.1 (higher than last season's #2 Derrick Williams)
Sullinger is second in NCAA Win Shares to Anthony Davis.
Sullinger is #7 in Defensive Win Shares and #8 in NCAA Defensive rating. (Note: Carlos Boozer has a high Defensive Rating as a Bull. No doubt a team affect in play here.)

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2012.html

As for Barnes, he's good, but if you look at the bottom of his player stats page and compare that with Sullinger, it is underwhelming.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla ... nes-1.html

I know I am biased against Barnes, theboomking. I don't trust my objectivity with him, because I've seen him disappear too many times. Basically, every time I watch Carolina I end up watching Tyler Zeller.

I like but don't love Barnes as a prospect. I think I just see him very differently than you do, especially the bolded comment above. I think Harrison Barnes is a good, but not great athlete. He isn't as good an athlete as Rudy Gay, Carmelo, Lebron, Igoudala, Gerald Wallace, Nic Batum, or Gilchrist. I don't think Barnes will necessarily be a plus athlete(run jump) in the NBA. Barnes isn't going to impress anyone with his ability to slash to the rim and finish above the rim in the NBA.

What Barnes has is basketball skill. He can shoot the ball. He can create shots from three point range and all the way in with jab steps, fakes, hesitation, footwork, excellent body control and coordination. Barnes can catch and shoot. He can create a shot from the triple post. He is an excellent shooter from 3 point range. He has an excellent floater. He already appears to have a solid post game.

I don't like that Barnes doesn't appear to be a great athlete, that is isn't a great passer or rebounder, that he isn't a great ball handler. I do like that he has a true natural position, that he has elite size for the SF position, that he should be a plus defender immediately, that he is mature and hard working, that he plays bigger in big games and in the tournament, that he should be able to step in and immediately fill our need for an efficient volume scorer that can operate in the half court.

I would argue that while Sullinger may be a good pro, he lacks ideal size, lacks ideal athleticism, doesn't seem to overwhelm with a variety of post moves, and probably won't be a great defender. I think Sullinger will be in the NBA for a long time, but will probably always be viewed as a better college player.

I think Barnes, as a Wizard, may be a significantly better pro than he is college player. The spacing in the pro game will help him. There are parts of his game that he hasn't had a chance to feature, that fit really well with the pro game, such as his post ability at SF.

Barnes isn't ever going to be a top 5-10 player in the league. He is much more James Harden than Kevin Durant. I just don't see a lot of other better solutions in this draft. Davis will be a superstar. Drummond has the potential to be one as well. Everyone else in this draft has question marks.

Back to Barnes, UNC's weakness this season has been 3 point shooting. Yet Barnes volume of 3's has been low - he's only third on his team in attempts! Shouldn't that be an indictment against Barnes? That's supposed to be his strength, and he hasn't done it enough to erase his team's weakness. The question is - Why hasn't he? My guess is - he hasn't done enough to stop opponents from taking away the 3 from him.

I don't view this as a negative. Part of the reason Barnes shoots a high percentage is because of his shot selection. The last thing this team needs is another chucker. I wouldn't expect Barnes to come in and be a Wade/Kobe/Durant caliber player. Would I rather have that player? Of course? The odds of getting that player with the 5th pick in any given draft however are slim.

[7-Day Dray]

Watching UCONN right now. Drummond's numbers don't look very impressive on the box score, but the upside is just oozing. He's the 2nd best shot-blocker in the draft (after Davis). He has great length that allows him to block and contest shots, runs the floor very well. His defense has been good today. Like many young bigs, he ball-watches too much on rebounds instead of finding a man, but he has all the tools you need to be dominant in that area. If we don't win the lottery, and stay at #2, if you asked me right now, I think I'd take Drummond over Robinson and Barnes. Just too much potential to pass up on. Don't forget that a guy like Robinson played ver limited minutes as a Fr. and put up mediocre numbers. His going to become really good if he receives proper development.

I'm not digging Lamb. While his ball-handling has improved, they still aren't very good, ao he can't penetrate into the lane. All he does is stand around the 3-point line, waiting to get open for a 3. For him being called his team's "best" player, you'd think he'd be more aggressive. He's allergic to the paint. He show a lot of (bad) Nick Young tendencies. Obviously he has much more room for improvement because he's young, but I think many people are overrating him. His play has declined since conference play.

[theboomking]

Watching UCONN right now. Drummond's numbers don't look very impressive on the box score, but the upside is just oozing. He's the 2nd best shot-blocker in the draft (after Davis). He has great length that allows him to block and contest shots, runs the floor very well. His defense has been good today. Like many young bigs, he ball-watches too much on rebounds instead of finding a man, but he has all the tools you need to be dominant in that area. If we don't win the lottery, and stay at #2, if you asked me right now, I think I'd take Drummond over Robinson and Barnes. Just too much potential to pass up on. Don't forget that a guy like Robinson played ver limited minutes as a Fr. and put up mediocre numbers. His going to become really good if he receives proper development.

Whoever picks Drummond might wind up looking as smart as OKC did for taking Westbrook despite his underwhelming collegiate production. I wouldn't be confident in choosing Drummond, but I would understand if we did. Mostly for exactly the reasons you state. He would immediately upgrade our interior defense.

[Illuminaire]

His going to become really good if he receives proper development.

That right there excludes him as a prospect for the Wiz... under current management.

[hands11]

I will buck conventional wisdom ( surprising right ? ) and say I am not overwhelmed with this draft class.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... _blog.html

There are certainly players here that can help but that was true of last years draft as well. I stand by my approach which says you need a stud SG/SF type that has experience. So unless you see the next Kobe, Wade, Manu, Granger, Batum, Iggy in here, then it will be more important to this franchise rebuild that they go find that player then who they get here. Most the top picks in this draft are big men. They will help a team that already has the player I am talking about but they are not going to make a team that much better that doesn't.

Not saying you can't get a good piece here that will help but without that player I'm talking about, I don't think they are going very far. Wall is already slated to be the stud #1. And as he continues to show he can shoot, he gets closer to D Rose status. Wall still has plenty of room to grow.

A stud big man would be really nice but it is no replacement for the player I think this team really needs. Closest thing to that player this team has had in recent history was CB. Currently the only thing they have even close is Mo Evans. That is where they need the most help. Barnes I don't believe is it.

Is Quincy Miller that player ?
Bradley Beal ?
Terrence Ross ?

Personally, I am not a big fan of most top 3 picks. Rarely do they live up to that slot before they are traded. Just to much pressure for most of them. As such, they are usually overpaid compared to what you can get 9-18. If you are going to pick top 3, that player better be super mature ala Duncan.

[DCZards]

I've been on board with Barnes. After Davis, MKG and, probably Drummond, he'd be my next pick. Barnes fills a critical need for the Zards...good shooting and consistent scoring. As for Barnes disappearing in games, he's playing with two other lottery picks and there are times when he doesn't need to be aggressive in order for UNC to score and blow teams out. But Barnes usually steps up when the game is on the line. I believe he's also averaging over five boards a game...not bad for a SF.

I've watched enough of Barnes the last two years to know that he's clutch, poised and only going to get better as a shooter....with more and more range. Other than Davis, Barnes may be the safest bet on the draft board.

[closg00]

Marquette handling Georgetown, I know not to pick GT to advance this year, they always disappoint at the dance.

[Knighthonor]

Question:

Has a super star nba player ever been drafted in the second or third round before? Who was it?

[DCZards]

Marquette handling Georgetown, I know not to pick GT to advance this year, they always disappoint at the dance.

Are you surprised that GTown is losing? I'm not. The Hoyas are playing a very good Marquette team--that's ranked in the top ten--on their homecourt on senior day. I'd love to see Gtown win...but, to tell the truth, I wasn't expecting them to win today. I certainly don't see it as reflection of how they'll perform in the tournament.

[closg00]

Marquette handling Georgetown, I know not to pick GT to advance this year, they always disappoint at the dance.

Are you surprised that GTown is losing? I'm not. The Hoyas are playing a very good Marquette team--that's ranked in the top ten--on their homecourt on senior day. I'd love to see Gtown win...but, to tell the truth, I wasn't expecting them to win today. I certainly don't see it as reflection of how they'll perform in the tournament.

Two separate comments I-guess. Regardless of who GTown is playing today, I would have made the same comment about not picking them to advance-much in the NCAA tournee.

[Dat2U]

Marquette handling Georgetown, I know not to pick GT to advance this year, they always disappoint at the dance.

The backcourt of Wright & Freeman IMO were the key culprits in G-Town disappointing during postseason play. They are gone and honestly I'm pretty optimistic about a decent postseason run from this team. One game isn't going to make or break this team.

I think this current team has toughness & teamwork in spades. That trip to China last summer will really help the Hoyas come tourney time.

[nate33]

Question:

Has a super star nba player ever been drafted in the second or third round before? Who was it?

Gilbert Arenas.

[Ed Wood]

Manu Ginobili is another pretty recent example.