Wizards vs Pacers

[DallasShalDune]

+1

Coaching. Players who play to Wall's strengths and can spread the floor, as opposed to just furthering the lane-clog.

So we've now gone through 2 coaches, one of whom is known to be a PG guru. Wall has started alongside Arenas, Hinrich, Young, Crawford, Al Thornton, Yi, Rashard Lewis, Mo Evans, Blatche, Booker, Seraphin, Nene, McGee, Josh Howard, Singleton and Vesely now.

Somehow all of the players and both of the coaches, it's all of their faults that the results are always the same, not Walls. All of those players, save Nene and Seraphin, have played some of the worst basketball of their careers playing with Wall/Wizards.

At some point, you've gone through enough variables to figure out the common denominator.

You got me. Grunfeld needs to trade him. He probably has no value, though, since GMs probably understand the game than fans on a message board. It'll be tough going for the Wiz.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

So we've now gone through 2 coaches, one of whom is known to be a PG guru. Wall has started alongside Arenas, Hinrich, Young, Crawford, Al Thornton, Yi, Rashard Lewis, Mo Evans, Blatche, Booker, Seraphin, Nene, McGee, Josh Howard, Singleton and Vesely now.

Somehow all of the players and both of the coaches, it's all of their faults that the results are always the same, not Walls. All of those players, save Nene and Seraphin, have played some of the worst basketball of their careers playing with Wall/Wizards.

At some point, you've gone through enough variables to figure out the common denominator.

what are you suggesting, get rid of wall after initial rookie contract is up?

I don't know about "get rid of", but I think it's time that we stop building the franchise around the obviously flawed premise that Wall is a franchise player. You can't solve a problem until you admit there is one.

I was in favor of packaging him with McGee for a blockbuster, but too late for that. I'd be willing to move him for a lottery pick in this deep draft.

Last year at this time, in this forum I floated the idea of John Wall for Kyrie irving plus a pick. That idea went over like a lead balloon then, but right about now I bet you'd take Irving and Faried or Brooks.

This draft has some pretty spiffy PGs:

Damian Lillard, Kendall Marshall, Scott Machado, Marquis Teague, Tyshawn Taylor, Darius Johnson-Odom, Tony Wroten Jr.

If I were a GM, I'd know that guys like Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, and Kirk Hinrich are all FAs. One school of thought would be to trade Wall for a bunch of assets, sign one older guy, and take a chance with some kid like Machado. Not saying I would do it, but I do think big.

Another deal would be to get two future firsts for Wall and to just go a different direction. I wouldn't do this, unless those firsts got me Anthony Davis. You have to try and trade up to get Davis.

RIGHT NOW, I would probably trade Wall to the Bobcats for their lotto pick and DJ Augustine. I would CERTAINLY trade Wall for their pick and Kemba Walker. Doubles my chances at Anthony Davis.

[Ed Wood]

I was in favor of packaging him with McGee for a blockbuster, but too late for that. I'd be willing to move him for a lottery pick in this deep draft.

I am not without concerns on the Wall front but this seems to be a case of familiarity breeding contempt, for all his flaws Wall is well ahead of the curve for even a high draft pick and I wouldn't be at all optimistic about finding comparable value in another pick.

[jivelikenice]

JJ, I'm sorry to go back to this but that list you provided makes my point. Outside of Nene you named 15 other players who wouldn't start on a playoff caliber let alone an an 8th seed. Where's the continuity? Where's the talent around a POINT GUARD. And flip has developed shooting pgs, not pgs with Johns' skillset....

[hands11]

A short nagging injury to slow him down would be a blessing right now. They he would be forced to learn the rest of the PG game while he is still young enough to use that knowledge the rest of his career.

This is why I keep saying, sometimes being to athletic can be an impediment to developing basketball skills. Oh course unless you are wise at a young age. Look at MJ. He had all the athletic advantage in the world and he used it. But he also out smarted you. That is what made him truly amazing. MJ without the smarts would not have been near what we got to see him do on the court.

This could be posted in the thread "Does Smart Make Better Basketball".

I like watching NCAA ball because teams with inferior talent often outsmart big time schools. Princeton did it for years. I am sure that ball security, shot selection, positional rebounding, fundamentally sound offense and defense go farther to determine the winner in NCAA ball. UKs young guys dominated physically AND they played smart together.

That kid Anthony Davis plays very smart defense. He is not just another great athlete. I'm not old enough to remember Bill Russell, but the man is off the charts smart from a basketball standpoint. That is how he beat Chamberlain.

Wall can be a Chamberlain if he maximizes his gifts, but he's no Russell.

Why yes. I would have to agree with that.

Talented ( not overly physically talented ) players are forced to learn the rest of the game and often end up being the better player. One of Davis's lucky advantages is the fact that he wasn't always tall like he is now.. he was introduced to basketball from a different angle. I think he uses that experience to broaden his understanding of the game and how he plays.

Not to drag Dray into this but he is actually a decent example. Dray doing all those double pump fakes is because he can't jump well. AJ is the same way. So they adapted to their lack of physical skills. Actually, AJ can jump on occasion. And he can actually run in a straight line pretty well. But he has no change of direction skills so he sucked at defense. He game is build around that. It was crafty. Do you remember how AD played. Undersized but with a butt to pump you and pump fakes to get you off balance. He was a AS.

Look at Dirk. He is no leaper. But he developed a game around his strengths. Look at Kidd. Look at Nash. Nash was a two time MVP and will go into the HOF. Dude isnt a dunker. And while he is quick, he isn't lighten fast. But he has NBA brilliance. Even Magic and Bird were no MJs on Doms.

Look at Rondo. He is athletic but not like people would say he Wall athletic. But Rondo is wicked smart about his skills, what they aren't, and the total game of basketball.

And before someone chimes in with ... well look who else is on their team... I have no doubt that if Rondo didnt have that talent around him, he would approach the game the same way. He know his limits. Kidd played on bad teams and he still played like Kidd.

Having all world speed does not a PG make. I believe that is the point we are trying to hammer home. Wall need more smarts and self control.

It isn't Whitman fault or Crawford. Whitman has been handling things just fine. It is Wall and no one else. It is up to him to play the most efficient game he can with in his skill set. You let the other pieces fall when they may.

[jivelikenice]

CCJ, as a point guard what does Kyrie do better than Wall. I ask because all I see is a more polished offensive player, not a better poing guard. Are you saying you'd prefer a score 1st pg? Kyrie is very good but if we watched him day in & day out like we watch Wall we'd complain that he doesn't do a good job of getting teammates involved and that no team with Kyrie as the foca; scoring option can be a long-term threat. That's before we get to discussing his defense...

I hate your idea to deal Wall because you're dealing when his value is down slightly. You made a similar argument when he started off the season slowly which you later admitted was a bad idea and and you're now reverting to that same argument.

[montestewart]

So we've now gone through 2 coaches, one of whom is known to be a PG guru. Wall has started alongside Arenas, Hinrich, Young, Crawford, Al Thornton, Yi, Rashard Lewis, Mo Evans, Blatche, Booker, Seraphin, Nene, McGee, Josh Howard, Singleton and Vesely now.

Somehow all of the players and both of the coaches, it's all of their faults that the results are always the same, not Walls. All of those players, save Nene and Seraphin, have played some of the worst basketball of their careers playing with Wall/Wizards.

At some point, you've gone through enough variables to figure out the common denominator.

This list cracks me up. You're presenting flawed evidence and undermining valid points.

Arenas and Howard had potentially career ending injuries (which they've never really come back from) before Wall arrived. Hinrich looked fine next to Wall, and his numbers weren't off. McGee and Young had their two best years playing next to Wall. Crawford's played better since coming from Atlanta. Yi, Thornton, and Evans, all played within the general decline of their careers before and after Wall. Booker, Seraphin, Singleton and Vesely have never played in the NBA except with Wall. So who does that leave? Oh yeah, Blatchemo and Lewis. I agree, those guys would be all-stars if it weren't for Wall.

[jivelikenice]

JJ, one of the guys on your all-star supporting cast list, Nick Young is shooting 34% playing with CHRIS PAUL. I guess that mean Paul sucks too then, right? This was the go-to-scorer they gave John in his 1st two years with the team. But its all John's fault

[hands11]

+1

Coaching. Players who play to Wall's strengths and can spread the floor, as opposed to just furthering the lane-clog.

So we've now gone through 2 coaches, one of whom is known to be a PG guru. Wall has started alongside Arenas, Hinrich, Young, Crawford, Al Thornton, Yi, Rashard Lewis, Mo Evans, Blatche, Booker, Seraphin, Nene, McGee, Josh Howard, Singleton and Vesely now.

Somehow all of the players and both of the coaches, it's all of their faults that the results are always the same, not Walls. All of those players, save Nene and Seraphin, have played some of the worst basketball of their careers playing with Wall/Wizards.

At some point, you've gone through enough variables to figure out the common denominator.

I don't care if Flip is a PG guru. Flip's/Witt's system is horrible for Wall. It's a jumpshooting system that doesn't require penetration from the PG. The system doesn't play to Wall's strengths.

Not sure what you are watching but Wittman is setting the offense to play to their strength. He he first took over, it was all up tempo because that was the players they had. Wall liked that. Now it is more feed the post more. They are playing much more inside out now with KS and or Nene. That is more winning playoff basketball then just running.

This is not an EFJ weave and heave or a Flip 15 J offense.

Not sure why people are having problems assigning blame to Wall that is his. Instead they are looking for ever other excuse and making things up. He is hurt. He wants to tank. It the coach. Its Crawford.

Acoms razor. Why is it not the answer to everything, I think it applies here.

I would also claim a preponderance of evidence.

[Ed Wood]

Acoms razor. Why is it not the answer to everything, I think it applies here.

I would also claim a preponderance of evidence.

Pack it up, we're done here.

edit: So I'm not being quite as chauvinistic I would say it more straightforward just to say that a team so dependably poor is flawed in a great many ways and that while Wall is a part of that the rogue's gallery of players who are both visually and measurably very fungible at best also do their part.

[hands11]

NOH beats Denver for their 14th win.

And the Spurs keep on rolling.

[dangermouse]

Still not writing him off until he has a proper off season with a new head coach.

He's strung a few miserable games together, and this has been his absolute rock bottom. He wasnt even playing like John Wall tonight. And you cant point fingers at his supporting cast, either. His supporting cast didnt make him barrel into defenders and throw garbage at the rim...

Again, we need to get him a veteran backup.

I hope he learned a hard lesson today. I hope he is watching game footage right now while being yelled at by Witt or ET. And i bet next game he will look much more in control, much more like a PG. He is too smart not to.

[jivelikenice]

Not sure why people are having problems assigning blame to Wall that is his. Instead they are looking for ever other excuse and making things up. He is hurt. He wants to tank. It the coach. Its Crawford.

Acoms razor. Why is it not the answer to everything, I think it applies here.

I would also claim a preponderance of evidence.

I've put some of the blame on Wall and absolutely think he can do certain things better. I also realize he's very young & raw and inspite of all that has managed to put up pretty good statistics. I just think its very apparent that the team has not put him in a position where he can succeed. He was never going to be an Arenas type of scorer and his game was going to be based on who we put around him and the system he played in. The organization has clearly failed him on both counts.

As for the Crawford factor, if you think its easy for a pg to play next to a ball stopper two guard who dominates the ball as much as Jordan Crawford does, then please give me an example of a pg who thrives playing with a similar sg?

[Higga]

I love all these budget/armchair GMs who want to trade everyone all the time and never commit to player development. That's one of the reasons why we'll always suck. That is all.

[hands11]

I was in favor of packaging him with McGee for a blockbuster, but too late for that. I'd be willing to move him for a lottery pick in this deep draft.

I am not without concerns on the Wall front but this seems to be a case of familiarity breeding contempt, for all his flaws Wall is well ahead of the curve for even a high draft pick and I wouldn't be at all optimistic about finding comparable value in another pick.

He isnt unmovable but at this point, you keep him another year and see how things go. Unless something golden falls in your lap. They have a team option after that. If you want to trade him, you target that time to do it and hope his stock maintains or goes up.

CCJ, not going to go back and dig it up but I posted the Kyrie idea as well early on and argued hard for him maturity over Wall. Again, we tend to see some things like that the same.

Either way, you bring in someone better then Mack as the back up. Mack is no threat. To bench Wall for him would borderlines insulting.

Touch think about dubbing Wall king on arrival is you make him into a prima donna that you have to walk gently around. Shawn Livingston is the kind of player you can add that wouldn't be to threatening but also adds skill that could burn a match under Walls ass.

But keep in mind, they only have him two more years before this qualifying offer is $9,697,901

Adding a known stud at PG now wouldn't be a terrible way to go either. Wall is an asset. The goal is to build a winner. With him or without him.

I'm fine if he works out. I'm just not sold that he will. A top pick, FA or trade and Nash wouldn't suck either. Sometimes you cash in to win.

[montestewart]

Hands, it's Acorn's razor. Get it right

[hands11]

Still not writing him off until he has a proper off season with a new head coach.

He's strung a few miserable games together, and this has been his absolute rock bottom. He wasnt even playing like John Wall tonight. And you cant point fingers at his supporting cast, either. His supporting cast didnt make him barrel into defenders and throw garbage at the rim...

Again, we need to get him a veteran backup.

I hope he learned a hard lesson today. I hope he is watching game footage right now while being yelled at by Witt or ET. And i bet next game he will look much more in control, much more like a PG. He is too smart not to.

And that is our John. If he gets his mind right, he can turn it around in a game. He played well last game even with getting in early foul trouble with wasnt really his fault. The refs were terrible.

I just wish once he finds the right approach again, that he sticks with it more often.

But Randy handled it well post game. He is telling him the right things. What bothers me is the fact that Im sure he was saying the same thing before the game and during the game. Why was Wall not listening. 360 moves and double cross over spinning Nick back steps show me he wasn't.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, as a point guard what does Kyrie do better than Wall. I ask because all I see is a more polished offensive player, not a better poing guard. Are you saying you'd prefer a score 1st pg? Kyrie is very good but if we watched him day in & day out like we watch Wall we'd complain that he doesn't do a good job of getting teammates involved and that no team with Kyrie as the foca; scoring option can be a long-term threat. That's before we get to discussing his defense...

I hate your idea to deal Wall because you're dealing when his value is down slightly. You made a similar argument when he started off the season slowly which you later admitted was a bad idea and and you're now reverting to that same argument.

He reverted first, jivelikenice.

Kyrie is more of a Terrell Brandon-type scoring PG. I don't think he's nearly the athlete Wall is. Irving is also very turnover prone and not nearly the passer Wall is. However, he is twice the shooter. I think he's probably considered by most to be a better player than Wall--and that is why he started over Wall at all star weekend.

My idea to trade Wall is only meant to get more value than he's actually worth. If Wall can get Anthony Davis, bye bye John Wall. If Wall can definitely improve the franchise more in trade, bye bye John as far as I'm concerned.

My ideas might not be good and indeed, if Wall starts playing like a world beater I no doubt will come back and say I was wrong.

I just think with every day it gets more and more clear Wall is NOT an all-time great. But Billups took a while, too. I need to see Wall's shot next season, and then I will no longer waver.

As it is, I have already said who I would move him for.

[hands11]

Hands, it's Acorn's razor.

I Googled. Blame Google.

I see it as occam's razor or ocam's razor

The important thing is you know what I was saying.

[Ed Wood]

Man google, first you keep track of all of the weird stuff I search for and now you don't even know about Oscar's Razor.

Yes, I knew what you meant hands, but I don't think "it's Wall's fault" is necessarily the most simple explanation in this case or that brevity is necessarily a sign of correctness when we're talking about so many moving parts.