Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[Nivek]

Gooden/Miller/Harrington. Three players that have contributed massively to this teams latest success. What defines a good GM? Sticking to the plan even if it defies popular opinion.

Welcome back to the boards.

Gooden -- yes, so far.
Miller -- yes.

Neither guy should be a surprise -- Miller has been a good PG for a bunch years and even though he's in his NBA dotage, he was still productive.

Gooden has been up and down throughout his career, but he's always been reasonably productive -- at least on offense. His defense has been another matter, and his attitude has been iffy at best.

Harrington has been bad, though. Really bad. Awful. As in, he's had three games this season that rate average or better -- well, four if you want to count almost average. That's out of 19 games, so...he's been about average roughly 20% of the time so far this season. Now, we can explain that away -- returning from injury, working himself back into shape, or some other third thing -- but we cannot say he's been good. Because he hasn't.

Next, none of these guys could be construed as a GM "sticking to the plan." Well, maybe Harrington because he was signed on the cheap before the season started. Miller and Gooden were definitely NOT part of The Plan -- they were desperation moves. Miller had to be acquired via trade because of two previous failures by the Great Ernie Grunfeld. The first was that horrific 2011 draft (back when The Plan was to build through the draft), and the other wasted opportunities to draft a competent reserve PG. The second was the failed Maynor signing. (And, we KNOW Grunfeld thought they had solved that backup PG problem with Maynor because he said so.)

Gooden was signed because the team needed frontcourt depth when Nenê got hurt. Of course, the team lacked frontcourt depth because of that failed 2011 draft (Vesely and Singleton), PLUS they traded Vesely as part of a package to fix that Maynor/backup PG problem. Of course, their aggressive pursuit of Maynor left them with scant resources to sign a free agent big man last summer -- something some of us thought they needed to do considering their plan to rely on 30+ year old big men and the poor performance of the bigs that were on the roster at that time.

So, yeah -- Gooden and Miller have been good pickups, and Harrington had a couple not bad games in the past week. But these things don't show Grunfeld is a good GM. ANY GM should be able to find competent NBA players from existing NBA players. What they actually highlight is how poor a job he's done.

[AFM]

Nivek I will be placing you on ignore until you stop posting derogatory posts about Al "I Get Buckets" Harrington. Big Al. GOAT Wizard.

[Nivek]

How many owners would fire a GM that has their team 2 games out of 3rd place in their conference? How many owners would fire their GM who has a sold out energized crowd at Verizon Center ? How many owners would fire their GM in the middle of or after a playoff run by a young talented team still reaching it's potential?

Easy for outsiders to want change and just say "fire" a guy without looking at job performance from both ends of the spectrum.

You make a strong case...if time started last week.

How many owners would KEEP a GM who for 8, 9, 10 seasons on the job had compiled the league's third worst winning percentage?

[Nivek]

Nivek I will be placing you on ignore until you stop posting derogatory posts about Al "I Get Buckets" Harrington. Big Al. GOAT Wizard.

My apologies. I don't know what I was thinking. Harrington gets lots of buckets.
















If given sufficient opportunities.

[Illuminaire]

Milellie111 sets the bar so low for Ernie, I'm pretty sure Brian Scalabrine could jump over it.

[AFM]

All I'm gonna say is when Wall gets in a fight with Joakim Noah during a playoff game, my boy Al will be the first guy running out there throwin dem bows
Al THE ENFORCER HARRINGTON

[closg00]

Gooden/Miller/Harrington. Three players that have contributed massively to this teams latest success. What defines a good GM? Sticking to the plan even if it defies popular opinion.

Welcome back to the boards.

Gooden -- yes, so far.
Miller -- yes.

Neither guy should be a surprise -- Miller has been a good PG for a bunch years and even though he's in his NBA dotage, he was still productive.

Gooden has been up and down throughout his career, but he's always been reasonably productive -- at least on offense. His defense has been another matter, and his attitude has been iffy at best.

Harrington has been bad, though. Really bad. Awful. As in, he's had three games this season that rate average or better -- well, four if you want to count almost average. That's out of 19 games, so...he's been about average roughly 20% of the time so far this season. Now, we can explain that away -- returning from injury, working himself back into shape, or some other third thing -- but we cannot say he's been good. Because he hasn't.

Next, none of these guys could be construed as a GM "sticking to the plan." Well, maybe Harrington because he was signed on the cheap before the season started. Miller and Gooden were definitely NOT part of The Plan -- they were desperation moves. Miller had to be acquired via trade because of two previous failures by the Great Ernie Grunfeld. The first was that horrific 2011 draft (back when The Plan was to build through the draft), and the other wasted opportunities to draft a competent reserve PG. The second was the failed Maynor signing. (And, we KNOW Grunfeld thought they had solved that backup PG problem with Maynor because he said so.)

Gooden was signed because the team needed frontcourt depth when Nenê got hurt. Of course, the team lacked frontcourt depth because of that failed 2011 draft (Vesely and Singleton), PLUS they traded Vesely as part of a package to fix that Maynor/backup PG problem. Of course, they're aggressive pursuit of Maynor left them with scant resources to sign a free agent big man last summer -- something some of us thought they needed to do considering their plan to rely on 30+ year old big men and the poor performance of the bigs that were on the roster at that time.

So, yeah -- Gooden and Miller have been good pickups, and Harrington had a couple not bad games in the past week. But these things don't show Grunfeld is a good GM. ANY GM should be able to find competent NBA players from existing NBA players. What they actually highlight is how poor a job he's done.

Game
Set
Match

[diaboliQ_Mo]

Milellie111 sets the bar so low for Ernie, I'm pretty sure Brian Scalabrine could jump over it.

And Darius Songaila for that matter.

Speaking of the bar being set, George Karl got clipped after winning the Coach of the Year. I doubt if Ted has guts to do something along the same line during this offseason. One year of playoff appearance would not undo several preceding years of ineptitude. I hope Ted will man up and hold Ernie accountable.

[Upper Decker]

Milellie111 sets the bar so low for Ernie, I'm pretty sure Brian Scalabrine could jump over it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5kzqNmXQQk[/youtube]

Ummm...get your facts straight Illuminaire! Watch the White Mamba strike and unleash the fury of some fly Kobe Bryant razzle madam!

[montestewart]

Milellie111 sets the bar so low for Ernie, I'm pretty sure Brian Scalabrine could jump over it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5kzqNmXQQk[/youtube]

Ummm...get your facts straight Illuminaire! Watch the White Mamba strike and unleash the fury of some fly Kobe Bryant razzle madam!

Cool move, that's his highlight reel right there.i

[Kanyewest]

Gooden/Miller/Harrington. Three players that have contributed massively to this teams latest success. What defines a good GM? Sticking to the plan even if it defies popular opinion.

Welcome back to the boards.

Gooden -- yes, so far.
Miller -- yes.

Neither guy should be a surprise -- Miller has been a good PG for a bunch years and even though he's in his NBA dotage, he was still productive.

Gooden has been up and down throughout his career, but he's always been reasonably productive -- at least on offense. His defense has been another matter, and his attitude has been iffy at best.

Harrington has been bad, though. Really bad. Awful. As in, he's had three games this season that rate average or better -- well, four if you want to count almost average. That's out of 19 games, so...he's been about average roughly 20% of the time so far this season. Now, we can explain that away -- returning from injury, working himself back into shape, or some other third thing -- but we cannot say he's been good. Because he hasn't.

Next, none of these guys could be construed as a GM "sticking to the plan." Well, maybe Harrington because he was signed on the cheap before the season started. Miller and Gooden were definitely NOT part of The Plan -- they were desperation moves. Miller had to be acquired via trade because of two previous failures by the Great Ernie Grunfeld. The first was that horrific 2011 draft (back when The Plan was to build through the draft), and the other wasted opportunities to draft a competent reserve PG. The second was the failed Maynor signing. (And, we KNOW Grunfeld thought they had solved that backup PG problem with Maynor because he said so.)

Gooden was signed because the team needed frontcourt depth when Nenê got hurt. Of course, the team lacked frontcourt depth because of that failed 2011 draft (Vesely and Singleton), PLUS they traded Vesely as part of a package to fix that Maynor/backup PG problem. Of course, their aggressive pursuit of Maynor left them with scant resources to sign a free agent big man last summer -- something some of us thought they needed to do considering their plan to rely on 30+ year old big men and the poor performance of the bigs that were on the roster at that time.

So, yeah -- Gooden and Miller have been good pickups, and Harrington had a couple not bad games in the past week. But these things don't show Grunfeld is a good GM. ANY GM should be able to find competent NBA players from existing NBA players. What they actually highlight is how poor a job he's done.

What I would imagine that Ted Leonsis would say....

I'm glad that you see that Gooden and Miller are really good pickups If you are going to blame Grunfled for making bad moves, then you can't simply defer credit because "well any GM makes competent moves sometimes" because even good GMs make bad moves. Look at Chris Copeland who is rotting away on Indiana's bench while many consider Indiana to have one of the top front offices in the league.

Some other good pickups that EG has acquired include Trevor Ariza and Martell Webster. I recall people saying that Ariza would put up mediocre or poor production during the remainder of his contract. Ariza is among the top 10 small forwards in production this season. People ripped EG for making the trade because the Wizards lost financial flexibility. Cap space is not always the way to go- see the Detroit Pistons signing Josh Smith and the aforementioned New Orleans Hornets who picked up Tyreke Evans and traded for Jrue Holiday.

Martell Webster has been a really good pickup as well even though people said that "Webster wasn't even that good when he was healthy". He has been one of the best 3 point shooters in the league since he has joined Washington.

I agree that the 2011 draft didn't pan out. But it was important part of the Wizards culture change which made us the 7th best defensive team this season. This helped provide the foundation to be a playoff team this year with the potential to make sustained playoff appearances over the next decade.

[Nivek]

And my response to that, Kanyewest would be something like... I've acknowledged when Grunfeld has made good moves. Acquiring Miller was a fine move for the purpose of reaching the playoffs this season. Trading for Ariza and Okafor was okay for the purpose of getting the team back to mediocrity.

My objection to the Okafor/Ariza trade didn't have anything to do with the quality of the players. I thought both guys were at least decent. The problem was the opportunity cost -- giving up cap space and the opportunity to acquire younger players with more of a future (guys who would pair better with the guys they're hoping will be the long-term core). And, I didn't like the age of the bigs they traded for (Nenê and Okafor) because in general, 30+ year old athletes get hurt, get worse, and cost more. (A concern which came to fruition when Okafor got hurt, which led to the team spending next year's 1st round pick to replace him with yet another 30-year old big man on an expiring contract.)

I didn't like that the moves to acquire older players seemed like a cynical push to get the team back to "good enough" rather than trying to build a team that could be excellent.

And, I would thoroughly disagree that the 2011 draft had anything to do with changing the team's culture. They got two bad players who could barely get on the floor -- when they could have picked two good players whose play would have meant they didn't need to trade for older players to "change the culture."

[closg00]

What I would imagine that Ted Leonsis would say....

I'm glad that you see that Gooden and Miller are really good pickups If you are going to blame Grunfled for making bad moves, then you can't simply defer credit because "well any GM makes competent moves sometimes" because even good GMs make bad moves. Look at Chris Copeland who is rotting away on Indiana's bench while many consider Indiana to have one of the top front offices in the league.

Some other good pickups that EG has acquired include Trevor Ariza and Martell Webster. I recall people saying that Ariza would put up mediocre or poor production during the remainder of his contract. Ariza is among the top 10 small forwards in production this season. People ripped EG for making the trade because the Wizards lost financial flexibility. Cap space is not always the way to go- see the Detroit Pistons signing Josh Smith and the aforementioned New Orleans Hornets who picked up Tyreke Evans and traded for Jrue Holiday.

Martell Webster has been a really good pickup as well even though people said that "Webster wasn't even that good when he was healthy". He has been one of the best 3 point shooters in the league since he has joined Washington.

I agree that the 2011 draft didn't pan out. But it was important part of the Wizards culture change which made us the 7th best defensive team this season. This helped provide the foundation to be a playoff team this year with the potential to make sustained playoff appearances over the next decade.

Webster shot the 3 well last season, not so-much this season. Webster's back issues never completely went-away therefore making him unworthy of the deal that he got. Webster is very one-dimensional due to his back.

2013-14 Season
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... t/3-points

[nate33]

I want to chime in and point out that EG may not really deserve all that much credit for Drew Gooden either. The only reason we needed to add Gooden is because Nene and Seraphin got hurt and Vesely was traded to remedy another EG mistake. The only reason Gooden was the replacement we added was because he happened to live in the area, he was already being paid by Milwaukee, and he was just looking for a chance to get back into the league.

[Nivek]

I want to chime in and point out that EG may not really deserve all that much credit for Drew Gooden either. The only reason we needed to add Gooden is because Nene and Seraphin got hurt and Vesely was traded to remedy another EG mistake. The only reason Gooden was the replacement we added was because he happened to live in the area, he was already being paid by Milwaukee, and he was just looking for a chance to get back into the league.

One point in Grunfeld (and the front office's) favor: they permitted Gooden to use their facilities. That was specifically Tommy Sheppard. That may have been something any team would have permitted if Gooden was in their area, but it did at least give the franchise an opportunity to see how hard Gooden was working, to get a read on his personality, dedication, etc. Letting Gooden use their facilities may be the minimum they could have done, but at least they did it.

[MikeTheKid]

I want to chime in and point out that EG may not really deserve all that much credit for Drew Gooden either. The only reason we needed to add Gooden is because Nene and Seraphin got hurt and Vesely was traded to remedy another EG mistake. The only reason Gooden was the replacement we added was because he happened to live in the area, he was already being paid by Milwaukee, and he was just looking for a chance to get back into the league.

Thank you for pointing that Nate, the only reason Gooden is here is because he lives in Bethesda. His house is actually not that far from my building and the Sportsnet building

[DCZards]

I want to chime in and point out that EG may not really deserve all that much credit for Drew Gooden either. The only reason we needed to add Gooden is because Nene and Seraphin got hurt and Vesely was traded to remedy another EG mistake. The only reason Gooden was the replacement we added was because he happened to live in the area, he was already being paid by Milwaukee, and he was just looking for a chance to get back into the league.

Thank you for pointing that Nate, the only reason Gooden is here is because he lives in Bethesda. His house is actually not that far from my building and the Sportsnet building

The fact that Gooden lived in the area meant nothing. I'm sure he would have happily moved to whatever city/team signed him to a contract and gave him a chance to possibly revive his career. Every team in the NBA knew Gooden was available and they also knew his strengths and weaknesses after 9 years in the league. EG chose to sign Gooden to a 10 day contract. (Some posters here blasted EG for not signing a "diamond in the rough" from the NBDL instead.)

Thus far, signing Gooden seems to have turned out to be a smart move. For that, at least some credit is due to EG.

[fishercob]

And my response to that, Kanyewest would be something like... I've acknowledged when Grunfeld has made good moves. Acquiring Miller was a fine move for the purpose of reaching the playoffs this season. Trading for Ariza and Okafor was okay for the purpose of getting the team back to mediocrity.

My objection to the Okafor/Ariza trade didn't have anything to do with the quality of the players. I thought both guys were at least decent. The problem was the opportunity cost -- giving up cap space and the opportunity to acquire younger players with more of a future (guys who would pair better with the guys they're hoping will be the long-term core). And, I didn't like the age of the bigs they traded for (Nenê and Okafor) because in general, 30+ year old athletes get hurt, get worse, and cost more. (A concern which came to fruition when Okafor got hurt, which led to the team spending next year's 1st round pick to replace him with yet another 30-year old big man on an expiring contract.)

I didn't like that the moves to acquire older players seemed like a cynical push to get the team back to "good enough" rather than trying to build a team that could be excellent.

And, I would thoroughly disagree that the 2011 draft had anything to do with changing the team's culture. They got two bad players who could barely get on the floor -- when they could have picked two good players whose play would have meant they didn't need to trade for older players to "change the culture."

I have never been fully comfortable with the charges of cynicism and I think that they, as well as our repeated use of the term "mediocrity" are, ironically enough, cynical.

There are two issues -- strategy and execution.

I think Leonsis set a strategy that you don't agree with and felt the Wiz had to be good as a means to get really good -- basically walking before they run. So that meant things like focusing on culture, overpaying veterans, etc. You can disagree with the strategy, but that doesn't make the strategy cynical in my view. I'm still ambivalent myself, to be honest. And I say this as someone that pays to go to the games.

The second issue is execution. Every individual move should be scrutinized. There have been spectacular failures (2011 draft, Maynor, Miller/Foye) and some successes (Kwame/Caron, the production of Ariza and Webster relative to their acquisition cost, maybe Gooden and Dre Miller). I think we all -- from closg00 to DCZards -- tend to focus on the moves that support our biases. However, when looking at the moves in the aggregate, it is hard to argue that Grunfeld hasn't executed on the first two phases of the strategy Ted laid out : #1 strip it down and get terrible, #2, rebuild to get decent.

The real question is where the Wizards go from here -- both on the court and off. As I have said, I think how the Wizards fare the rest of the way and in the postseason stands to have a fairly big impact on the future plays out. Only good things can come from the Wizards making an unexpected run of sorts in the playoffs. Everyone I have spoken with about Saturday night's game against Brooklyn has remarked about the amazing energy in the building. What will people say and think if the WIzards fans blow the roof off the building and help send the team back to Indiana tied at 2?

The Wizards aren't in the best situation this summer. But they are not in the worst, either. There may be opportunities to make a singular bold move that could propel the team to the third stage of the rebuild -- into a team that can make deep playoff runs. I've mentioned how I think Kevin Love may be an option. There may be others. But I truly believe that a whole range of possibilities exist for the WIzards going forward, including getting really, really good.

I have directed a lot of attention on disliking the job Ernie (and to a lesser extent Ted) has done. The truth is that as much as I might like to see Ernie replaced, I would get far less satisfaction out of him being canned than I would from Ernie staying on and the Wizards getting it right. I have said this a number of times, but the NBA is a little like poker. While Ernie has spent some time as the sucker, he can also be the guy who doesn't play his cards by the book and still gets lucky on the river. I just want the Wizards to be good, watchable and fun to root for. I don't really care how.

[Ruzious]

I want to chime in and point out that EG may not really deserve all that much credit for Drew Gooden either. The only reason we needed to add Gooden is because Nene and Seraphin got hurt and Vesely was traded to remedy another EG mistake. The only reason Gooden was the replacement we added was because he happened to live in the area, he was already being paid by Milwaukee, and he was just looking for a chance to get back into the league.

One point in Grunfeld (and the front office's) favor: they permitted Gooden to use their facilities. That was specifically Tommy Sheppard. That may have been something any team would have permitted if Gooden was in their area, but it did at least give the franchise an opportunity to see how hard Gooden was working, to get a read on his personality, dedication, etc. Letting Gooden use their facilities may be the minimum they could have done, but at least they did it.

That's a good fact to know. Any way you slice it, this has been a good move by the Wiz front office. I thought it was a bad move at the time - given how unpopular Gooden became in Milwaukee, but the Wiz guys obviously did their homework and thensome (Is thensome one word?). I'm surprised at how quickly he's acclimated himself back to the NBA. Hopefully, he plays well the rest of the season. Long term, I wouldn't have expectations.

[Nivek]

Fair enough, fish. None of us knows what motivated their apparent change in strategy. It LOOKS cynical to me on two levels. The first, that from reading Leonsis' blog and listening to his public utterances, they may have decided they needed ticket sales to improve sooner rather than later, and they decided to make moves designed to get them in the playoffs sooner rather than later. Get "good enough" now, and worry about the future when the future comes.

The second way it looks cynical is when looking at the moves through the prism of Grunfeld trying to keep his job. He'll succeed in getting into the playoffs this season, but I think a fair-minded analysis of the moves it's taken to get them there would conclude they've paid a high price to get there.

As for Grunfeld managing to "execute" on the first two phases of the plan...well, sorta. He "tore down" what was already a shambles. I don't think that took much skill. As for "rebuild to get decent" ... well, kinda. He's burned a lot of resources to get to the middle of the pack. And he's been fortunate to draw a historically weak Eastern Conference this year.

But, let's go back to The Plan Leonsis articulated back when they "tore it down." Tasked with "building through the draft," Grunfeld went out and picked Vesely, Singleton and Mack. Oops. When previously tasked (by Abe Pollin) to "win now," Grunfeld traded the 5th pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

And...league's third worst winning percentage during his tenure.

The team IS better this season. They are pretty fun to watch much of the time. I'm definitely happy they don't have to play in the West. But, man they've had to burn a BUNCH of assets to get even this good. And that bugs me.