Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[gambitx777]

So much this. We can't make an accurate projection of Beal's ceiling/floor until he plays in an offense where he actually plays like a 2 guard rather than a combo guard where he's running the point (and failing spectacularly). 31 percent of his shots are pullup long two's. 31 PERCENT. You want to know how much someone like Wes Matthews or Kevin Martin shoots those? 15%... even Klay caps out at 20%. Beal isn't being used correctly AT ALL.

How is Beal playing like a combo guard - when he's playing 90% of his minutes with Wall? Yes, he's taking too many 2's, but he'd get more 3's if he had a quicker release - and he's got to make a better percentage of his 2's. I don't think I've seen such a good-looking shooter miss so many mid-range jumpers.

Playing with Wall has nothing to do with it, in fact, Wall's presence on the court literally has no effect on most of the plays that Beal is featured in. Beal's total TOP is nearly double that of guys like Matthews and Martin, it's even higher than Klay's. Randy expects him to handle the ball and create plays, most pure 2 guards in the league do not have that responsibility. In general it's a 3 step process between Shooting, Driving, and Kicking, something that takes all of 3 seconds to process and do. Most defenses push Beal out behind the arc with pressure, and Randy has found zero ways to counter this. Beal will frequently receive the ball 2-3 feet behind the line and proceed to run the 2 man game with the 4 spot, or attempt a botched pick and roll that gets blown up immediately, often because either the spacing is f'ed or Beal is too hesitant to explode to the rim. Most of the time we just see these plays used as a means to get Beal space to shoot a long two. When these don't happen, Beal ends up holding on to the ball and stalling the offense. This is all horrible coaching, his extremely hot playoff run was just a flash in the pan and something that any guard can do when they get in the zone. The sad thing is Beal has developed literally nothing since his rookie year, he's still the same player coming out of Florida. Whoever comes in next year (if someone comes in), they're going to have to completely tear apart Beal's game and all of these plays and rebuild it from the ground up.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head! All the more reason to get Don Newman in there now! and get this started. So that next year, he might have the chance to break out and up his trade value.

[Ruzious]

How is Beal playing like a combo guard - when he's playing 90% of his minutes with Wall? Yes, he's taking too many 2's, but he'd get more 3's if he had a quicker release - and he's got to make a better percentage of his 2's. I don't think I've seen such a good-looking shooter miss so many mid-range jumpers.

Playing with Wall has nothing to do with it, in fact, Wall's presence on the court literally has no effect on most of the plays that Beal is featured in. Beal's total TOP is nearly double that of guys like Matthews and Martin, it's even higher than Klay's. Randy expects him to handle the ball and create plays, most pure 2 guards in the league do not have that responsibility. In general it's a 3 step process between Shooting, Driving, and Kicking, something that takes all of 3 seconds to process and do. Most defenses push Beal out behind the arc with pressure, and Randy has found zero ways to counter this. Beal will frequently receive the ball 2-3 feet behind the line and proceed to run the 2 man game with the 4 spot, or attempt a botched pick and roll that gets blown up immediately, often because either the spacing is f'ed or Beal is too hesitant to explode to the rim. Most of the time we just see these plays used as a means to get Beal space to shoot a long two. When these don't happen, Beal ends up holding on to the ball and stalling the offense. This is all horrible coaching, his extremely hot playoff run was just a flash in the pan and something that any guard can do when they get in the zone. The sad thing is Beal has developed literally nothing since his rookie year, he's still the same player coming out of Florida. Whoever comes in next year (if someone comes in), they're going to have to completely tear apart Beal's game and all of these plays and rebuild it from the ground up.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head! All the more reason to get Don Newman in there now! and get this started. So that next year, he might have the chance to break out and up his trade value.

Guys, I'm not buying what you're selling. No point guard is asked to do more for his team than Wall (Westbrook does more, but he does it on his own), and that's because in large part he doesn't have teammates who create on their own. Beal does VERY LITTLE to help in that area. I would expect someone with his reputation to do more.

[gambitx777]

Guys, I'm not buying what you're selling. No point guard is asked to do more for his team than Wall (Westbrook does more, but he does it on his own), and that's because in large part he doesn't have teammates who create on their own. Beal does VERY LITTLE to help in that area. I would expect someone with his reputation to do more.

I agree, Beal needs to step up, no one is saying that he does not need to. But to a point it is Wittmans fault. He's telling Beal to play the way he is. What if Beal ignores him, then he ends up in Randys dog house, looses minutes and gets labeled a bad locker room guy. You need to craft Beals game around the 3 ball and everything will fall into place from there. They need to reduce those long 2's with 3's, end of story, the kid needs to shoot more 3's. If they at least attempt it, then we can at least say they made the attempt.

[payitforward]

If they think Beal is Wade.......we're in trouble. The kid isn't tall enough, nor does he have enough lift/ball handling skills.

He needs to shoot threes.

Not tall enough? He's taller than Wade for starters.

Not enough lift? His no-step vertical and Max vertical are both way better than Wade's were at his age (certainly more than now, which is not the point of course).

When Wade played his first NBA game as a rookie, he was older than Bradley Beal is today. His numbers as a rookie were about the same as Beal's numbers this year.

Obviously, that doesn't mean Beal will be as great a player as Wade -- a hall of fame player. Hell, who knows, he may never improve -- he may get worse! If we knew the future, we wouldn't waste time on this Board; we'd be picking stocks. We don't, and the idea that we have this 21 year old kid pegged makes no sense to me.

Why we didn't trade him (the pick) for Harden is another question. That was a bonehead mistake by a bonehead GM. But that was then, and this is now, and I can't come up with a trade anybody would make that would be worth letting him go.

[gambitx777]

Hind sight is always 20/20. But man, Harden/Wall would probably be the best back court in the nba right now. But oh well, I think its jsut sad we wasted so much time with Wittman.

[Dark Faze]

I'd try to get an extension now for around 12 and if he declines I'd look to trade him.

Milwaukee for Jabari Parker might be enticing to them, the ACL has to scare them off and Beal is more able to contribute right away. It's a gamble for us, but I like Jabaris potential quite a bit as a guy who can create on his own.

Sac-Town: Porter, Beal, and our First this year for Boogie. That's a lot of assets to give up but having both Wall and Cousins on pre-cap raise maxes gives you a lot of room to replace outgoing to talent.

[gambitx777]

I'd try to get an extension now for around 12 and if he declines I'd look to trade him.

Milwaukee for Jabari Parker might be enticing to them, the ACL has to scare them off and Beal is more able to contribute right away. It's a gamble for us, but I like Jabaris potential quite a bit as a guy who can create on his own.

Sac-Town: Porter, Beal, and our First this year for Boogie. That's a lot of assets to give up but having both Wall and Cousins on pre-cap raise maxes gives you a lot of room to replace outgoing to talent.

I would push Beal and Gortat, 2016 unprotected over Porter and 2015. Too many really good players this year to just pass up. Puls we might need porter to play more SG if we can't find a replacement for beal, at our projected draft slot, we would be in the running for Caris LeVert, Justin Anderson and Buddy Hield. If we wanted to trade back into the second round or if we get to keep our second round pick somehow, we could take a look at R.J. Hunter or Dez Wells.

[Dark Faze]

Mclemore and Stauskas really make acquiring Beal kind of redundant though. He's better than both but no where near enough to give up boogie. I don't think we have a package that can get him.

Like I said, realistically I like Jabari as a guy we could maybe actually grab.

Mcw
Beal
Giannas
Henson
Gortat

Maybe get their first and filler as well for Gortat.

We'd have Wall, Porter and Jabari with tons of cap room and two firsts. Maybe move Porter and a first for Noel.

Wall, Jabari, Noel, loads of cap space.

[gambitx777]

Mclemore and Stauskas really make acquiring Beal kind of redundant though. He's better than both but no where near enough to give up boogie. I don't think we have a package that can get him.

Like I said, realistically I like Jabari as a guy we could maybe actually grab.

Mcw
Beal
Giannas
Henson
Gortat

Maybe get their first and filler as well for Gortat.

We'd have Wall, Porter and Jabari with tons of cap room and two firsts. Maybe move Porter and a first for Noel.

Wall, Jabari, Noel, loads of cap space.

I think you over value the competency of the kings. I think a starting center on a fair deal, a potential star 2 and an unprotected pick, is probably a fair deal for Boogie. Toss in a 2018 unprotected if you want but that would be a solid haul
I highly doubt they trade Parker. I don't see it happening.

[Dark Faze]

I don't see how you'd think that that deal has a better chance of taking place than with the Bucks. Seriously, the Kings just drafted two SG prospects with their last two lottery selections and Cousins is an absolute stud. They simply wouldn't accept that deal.

On the otherside, you think the Bucks are more likely to say no when Jabari is coming off an ACL tear and hasn't proven anything yet? Don't get that logic. The pieces we have to offer the Bucks actually fit. Beal and Gortat sliding in would slide them into a win now position with Middleton as a sixth man.

Middleton is probably better than Beal anyway though to be honest.

[gambitx777]

I don't see how you'd think that that deal has a better chance of taking place than with the Bucks. Seriously, the Kings just drafted two SG prospects with their last two lottery selections and Cousins is an absolute stud. They simply wouldn't accept that deal.

On the otherside, you think the Bucks are more likely to say no when Jabari is coming off an ACL tear and hasn't proven anything yet? Don't get that logic. The pieces we have to offer the Bucks actually fit. Beal and Gortat sliding in would slide them into a win now position with Middleton as a sixth man.

Middleton is probably better than Beal anyway though to be honest.

I absolutely think that because the bucks have a competent front office. if you offer a promising young 2, a starting center and proven locker room guy on a reasonable deal, plus 2 unprotected picks for a guy who could turn heel and drop a grenade in your locker room at anytime. Plus you have to take in to account that those two 2 guards are scrubs and their owner is clearly obsessed with having a star 2. The kings are not a good franchise right now. Yeah I see us swindling them over us stealing Parker from the bucks. Now with GC in town that might be a bit harder to do.

ACL tears are not death sentences any more, the often come back stronger than before. They are not moving parker, for a guy they have to pay in a year, No. They just Shipped off Knight for that reason. The have every reason to wait and see on Parker and no reason to trade him right now with on injury on him. You might get a Middleton sign and trade for Beal and Gortat Maybe.... Maybe.... But its far from a perfect deal.

What I'm saying is you are more likely to pull off a heist against a week front office like the Kings, than you are to get the Bucks to panic and trade off parker, who will probably be perfectly fine.

[Ruzious]

Speaking of Bucks, their fans are torn on Henson. Half hate his perceived lack of effort and are concerned about his lack of shooting range and lack of bulk at center. Others like him a lot because of his stats - though his turnovers and fouls have increased this season while his rebounding has declined. A comparison of him and the well-respected Andrew Bogut - first 3 years only shows Henson has outscored Bogut per 36 mins 15.2 to 13.2 shooting the same FG%, outrebounded him 10.2 to 9.4, and out-blocked him 2.5 to 1.2. Henson does not start for the Bucks, as Kidd prefers journeyman Zaza Paculia. Henson can be had - though the Bucks won't give him away.

[thricethefun]

I don't see how you'd think that that deal has a better chance of taking place than with the Bucks. Seriously, the Kings just drafted two SG prospects with their last two lottery selections and Cousins is an absolute stud. They simply wouldn't accept that deal.

On the otherside, you think the Bucks are more likely to say no when Jabari is coming off an ACL tear and hasn't proven anything yet? Don't get that logic. The pieces we have to offer the Bucks actually fit. Beal and Gortat sliding in would slide them into a win now position with Middleton as a sixth man.

Middleton is probably better than Beal anyway though to be honest.

Neither trade is likely at all. If the Kings do decide to deal Cousins they can do a lot better than Beal. And the Bucks would never trade Jabari, who is already better than Beal as a rookie, for him. I'm guessing Beal's value at this point is about a mid first round pick. You get any offers better than that you pull the trigger immediately.

[Dark Faze]

Can we offer contractually based protections on draft picks?

Washington gives up every first round draft pick they have, completely unprotected, year after year, for as long as Ernie Grunfeld remains general manager.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Speaking of Bucks, their fans are torn on Henson. Half hate his perceived lack of effort and are concerned about his lack of shooting range and lack of bulk at center. Others like him a lot because of his stats - though his turnovers and fouls have increased this season while his rebounding has declined. A comparison of him and the well-respected Andrew Bogut - first 3 years only shows Henson has outscored Bogut per 36 mins 15.2 to 13.2 shooting the same FG%, outrebounded him 10.2 to 9.4, and out-blocked him 2.5 to 1.2. Henson does not start for the Bucks, as Kidd prefers journeyman Zaza Paculia. Henson can be had - though the Bucks won't give him away.

http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXhXXhensojo01.html&t=2

John Henson, career, per 36 minutes:

15 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 2.5 blocks.

18.0 PER

Henson is a good, underutilized player. If he can be acquired the Wizards need to see if they can get him.

[Sluggerface]

Sac-Town: Porter, Beal, and our First this year for Boogie. That's a lot of assets to give up but having both Wall and Cousins on pre-cap raise maxes gives you a lot of room to replace outgoing to talent.

I'd rather take a hard run at Deandre Jordan this off-season before putting together a boogie trade package. Something like a sign and trade involving Gortat for Jordan and then max Jordan. A lot more valuable than giving up the farm for Boogie.

[Dark Faze]

Sac-Town: Porter, Beal, and our First this year for Boogie. That's a lot of assets to give up but having both Wall and Cousins on pre-cap raise maxes gives you a lot of room to replace outgoing to talent.

I'd rather take a hard run at Deandre Jordan this off-season before putting together a boogie trade package. Something like a sign and trade involving Gortat for Jordan and then max Jordan. A lot more valuable than giving up the farm for Boogie.

I'd rather just pay Gortat 12 million than pay DeAndre 15+. DeAndre wouldn't add many wins to this team. He's not a great defender. He's better than Gortat, but he's not an elite rim protector. He's an elite rebounder and great finisher, but its hard to quantify how valuable that is. Like, additional offensive rebounds are pretty much offset by the fact that he's absolutely tragic from the line.

I'm of the mindset that unless I can get an elite talent in the mold of Boogie/Anthony Davis, then your better off just having a guy like Mozgov, Robin Lopez, etc. You just need a 7 footer that can rebound and protect the rim at an average level. Spend the salary savings on difference makers on the wings and off your bench.

[Sluggerface]

Sac-Town: Porter, Beal, and our First this year for Boogie. That's a lot of assets to give up but having both Wall and Cousins on pre-cap raise maxes gives you a lot of room to replace outgoing to talent.

I'd rather take a hard run at Deandre Jordan this off-season before putting together a boogie trade package. Something like a sign and trade involving Gortat for Jordan and then max Jordan. A lot more valuable than giving up the farm for Boogie.

I'd rather just pay Gortat 12 million than pay DeAndre 15+. DeAndre wouldn't add many wins to this team. He's not a great defender. He's better than Gortat, but he's not an elite rim protector. He's an elite rebounder and great finisher, but its hard to quantify how valuable that is. Like, additional offensive rebounds are pretty much offset by the fact that he's absolutely tragic from the line.

I'm of the mindset that unless I can get an elite talent in the mold of Boogie/Anthony Davis, then your better off just having a guy like Mozgov, Robin Lopez, etc. You just need a 7 footer that can rebound and protect the rim at an average level. Spend the salary savings on difference makers on the wings and off your bench.

I think it's pretty valuable. The past two seasons he's been ridiculously good in almost every single advanced metric, even the ones that penalize defensive rebounding like wins produced. Even with the horrid FT shooting, he's still a career .623 TS% shooter. One of his best qualities is actually his insane block rate compared to how little he commits personal fouls. If you're building a team around 3 max players (2 wings/1 big) He's the perfect fit as the third wheel on a championship team. Generational rebounder/finisher.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Boogie trade, but if you have to give up Beal/Porter for him, that leaves you with no other assets at this point in time. Like I said, I'd rather take Jordan and then use Beal/Porter to bring in an elite wing player.

[Ruzious]

Gortat doesn't get you Jordan in a sign and trade. Jordan's significantly younger and better.

[Sluggerface]

Gortat doesn't get you Jordan in a sign and trade. Jordan's significantly younger and better.

Yes, but if the Clippers decide to give Jordan the max, they're condemning themselves to tax hell, which no one in the league wants to do right now with 2016 coming up. LA has done nothing but sing him praises this season, so it's entirely possible that will be the route they go in resigning him and fully committing to a Griffin/Paul/Jordan core, but there's also an equal chance they let him walk in order to reinforce Griffin/Paul with the bevy of talent (and there's A LOT of it outside of KD) in 2016.