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Political Roundtable Part VIII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#181 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:51 pm

TGW wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
And regardless of fault - it is probably the single most important issue we should focus to improve the lives of black children. I am still waiting on a good proposal from either the Rs or Ds on this.


Two things affecting the lives of black children: economic deprivation and an de-emphasis on education. My plan would be to stabilize black households and incentavize education.

1) one-time reparations of $25,000 to married african-american households that have been in-tact for at least 3 years and have NOT been on government assistance in the past 3 years (with a salary cap of $200K net household income). This would minimize the systematic dependency on government assistance, and allow the black community to purchase stores, businesses, properties, and other items that build wealth.

AA's who are not eligible = immigrants, children of immigrants (like me :noway: ), couples making over $200K net hh income (also me), those who've been on government assistance in the past 3 years, and interracial households or children of interracial background (a line would have to be drawn somewhere)

2) tax benefits for AA households with children obtaining/maintaining a certain GPA. this would incentivize parents to be involved in the schooling of their children, since it would benefit them during tax time. unfortunately, because white people with HS diplomas are more likely to get a job than a black college grad, higher education in the black community has been stigmatized. we need to end that cycle.

i know these ideas would be unpopular, but the black community is in the situation there in mostly because of the government. my opinion is that AA's should be a protected group, much like native americans.

These are interesting ideas, TGW. In general, I'm not supportive of the idea of reparations, but at least you are making an honest attempt at providing those reparations payments in a manner that might have a long term beneficial impact. I really like the incentive structure here. I think your salary cutoffs are too high though - perhaps because your frame of reference living in the high cost DC area. $200K a year is a fortune in most of the country - enough to rank among the top 1%. I'd make the cutoff $100K, or maybe $125K.

I'm a little leery of that 2nd part, mostly because GPA is too easily to manipulate. I envision an entire movement to threaten and cajole teachers into providing good grades that may not be deserved. That would ultimately be a disservice to the kids that we are trying to help. I'd feel much better about the idea if the barometer was based on standardized testing, not GPA.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#182 » by TGW » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:15 pm

nate33 wrote:These are interesting ideas, TGW. In general, I'm not supportive of the idea of reparations, but at least you are making an honest attempt at providing those reparations payments in a manner that might have a long term beneficial impact. I really like the incentive structure here. I think your salary cutoffs are too high though - perhaps because your frame of reference living in the high cost DC area. $200K a year is a fortune in most of the country - enough to rank among the top 1%. I'd make the cutoff $100K, or maybe $125K.


That's actually a fair point, and you're right about the frame of reference. However, I set that cutoff where I did to ensure that pretty much every AA who fits the criteria can get what I feel is owed to them. But I see your point.

I'm a little leery of that 2nd part, mostly because GPA is too easily to manipulate. I envision an entire movement to threaten and cajole teachers into providing good grades that may not be deserved. That would ultimately be a disservice to the kids that we are trying to help. I'd feel much better about the idea if the barometer was based on standardized testing, not GPA.


I also thought about as well. Maybe we use grades + standardized test scores as the litmus test, much like college.

But props to you for keeping an open mind, Nate. I thought you would be the first to shut this idea down.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#183 » by TGW » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:36 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:
nate33 wrote:You will forgive me if I doubt the fairness of an organization started by the Tampa Bay Times, a liberal paper that has endorsed the Democrat presidential candidate in every election since 1948.

The battle cry of everyone who doesn't like the results. :lol:

Like the late Ken Beatrice, I don't have the resources to fact check everything myself. I'd be happy to run a similar analysis using a different source. I looked at FactCheck.org, but they don't have a summary section like PolitiFact does. I checked a few other sites too, and same deal: no summary section. Unfortunately, I don't have time to sift through thousands of articles to see what the rulings are.


You'd run into the same issue because most of the fact-checking organizations are funded by liberal/left-leaning groups.

I will say this...I don't agree that Trump lies alot. I think he's just severely misinformed about many things, and he doesn't bother to fact-check or vet anything he says before he says it. It's like when he retweeted the bogus data about 81% of white murder victims being killed by black people--even though he was too idiotic to pick up the fact that this was highly inaccurate--I don't think he was lying...I honestly think he simply thought those numbers were real.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#184 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:35 pm

Man, those white supremacist Trump fans really hate Muslims:

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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#185 » by TheSecretWeapon » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:11 pm

TGW wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:
nate33 wrote:You will forgive me if I doubt the fairness of an organization started by the Tampa Bay Times, a liberal paper that has endorsed the Democrat presidential candidate in every election since 1948.

The battle cry of everyone who doesn't like the results. :lol:

Like the late Ken Beatrice, I don't have the resources to fact check everything myself. I'd be happy to run a similar analysis using a different source. I looked at FactCheck.org, but they don't have a summary section like PolitiFact does. I checked a few other sites too, and same deal: no summary section. Unfortunately, I don't have time to sift through thousands of articles to see what the rulings are.


You'd run into the same issue because most of the fact-checking organizations are funded by liberal/left-leaning groups.

I will say this...I don't agree that Trump lies alot. I think he's just severely misinformed about many things, and he doesn't bother to fact-check or vet anything he says before he says it. It's like when he retweeted the bogus data about 81% of white murder victims being killed by black people--even though he was too idiotic to pick up the fact that this was highly inaccurate--I don't think he was lying...I honestly think he simply thought those numbers were real.

Yeah. I actually turned this into a post at my blog. Over at the blog, I included this:

I wrote:In the interest of fairness, I’ll point out that the forgoing numbers don’t necessarily represent “lies” in the sense that each of these people knew they were saying something untrue in each of these instances. Some of these are likely factual errors.

In addition, the PolitiFact database includes only claims they fact-checked. Each of these people have made a gazillion claims, many of which could be true, false or something in-between. What’s presented by PolitiFact (and therefore by me) is analysis of claims that were controversial or iffy enough to indicate a need for third-party evaluation. (I use “third-party” intentionally because PolitiFact has been accused of having a liberal bias. That’s a subject for another day.)
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#186 » by JWizmentality » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:12 pm

nate33 wrote:
This is Trump's appeal. His has torn down the wall of censorship so that a true conversation about these issues can take place. If the media is unwilling to critically examine the dark underbelly of Islam and the potential long term ramifications to Western society, then Trump and Le Pen and Viktor Orbán will.


Really?? That's the rallying cry? That's our biggest threat...despite the fact that Americans do better job of killing themselves than any terrorist could ever hope to achieve.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#187 » by TheSecretWeapon » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:14 pm

nate33 wrote:Man, those white supremacist Trump fans really hate Muslims:

Image

Not sure what point you're trying to make. The question seems to be "Has Trump gone too far with his plan to ban all Muslims?" The responses (as presented in the photo) would seem to indicate that whites are far more likely to say "no" -- meaning they do not think Trump has gone too far.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#188 » by JWizmentality » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:25 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:
nate33 wrote:Man, those white supremacist Trump fans really hate Muslims:

Image

Not sure what point you're trying to make. The question seems to be "Has Trump gone too far with his plan to ban all Muslims?" The responses (as presented in the photo) would seem to indicate that whites are far more likely to say "no" -- meaning they do not think Trump has gone too far.


No I think its the other way around. I think the point he's trying to make is "See, whites aren't as racist as other people." :roll:
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#189 » by TGW » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:34 pm

JWizmentality wrote:
nate33 wrote:
This is Trump's appeal. His has torn down the wall of censorship so that a true conversation about these issues can take place. If the media is unwilling to critically examine the dark underbelly of Islam and the potential long term ramifications to Western society, then Trump and Le Pen and Viktor Orbán will.


Really?? That's the rallying cry? That's our biggest threat...despite the fact that Americans do better job of killing themselves than any terrorist could ever hope to achieve.


http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

Image
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#190 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:53 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:Not sure what point you're trying to make. The question seems to be "Has Trump gone too far with his plan to ban all Muslims?" The responses (as presented in the photo) would seem to indicate that whites are far more likely to say "no" -- meaning they do not think Trump has gone too far.

Hispanics and Blacks are the ones who said "No". The way I read it is that Hispanics and AA's are fine with Trump's policy, while some (but not too many) whites think he has gone too far. It would appear that that wild, crazy, racist, bigoted, woman-hating, white supremacist Donald Trump understands America better than most on this board. :P
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#191 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:54 pm

TGW wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
nate33 wrote:
This is Trump's appeal. His has torn down the wall of censorship so that a true conversation about these issues can take place. If the media is unwilling to critically examine the dark underbelly of Islam and the potential long term ramifications to Western society, then Trump and Le Pen and Viktor Orbán will.


Really?? That's the rallying cry? That's our biggest threat...despite the fact that Americans do better job of killing themselves than any terrorist could ever hope to achieve.


http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

Image

There are 100 times more non-Muslims than Muslims in our country. So your own data proves that an individual Muslim in America is 100 times more dangerous than a non-Muslim.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#192 » by TheSecretWeapon » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:05 pm

nate33 wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:Not sure what point you're trying to make. The question seems to be "Has Trump gone too far with his plan to ban all Muslims?" The responses (as presented in the photo) would seem to indicate that whites are far more likely to say "no" -- meaning they do not think Trump has gone too far.

Hispanics and Blacks are the ones who said "No". The way I read it is that Hispanics and AA's are fine with Trump's policy, while some (but not too many) whites think he has gone too far.

I read it just the opposite. :) Plus, this looks to be one of MSNBC's live vote polls, and it doesn't make much sense given other polling data on the subject. Rasmussen's poll found 66% of Republicans favor Trump's proposal vs. about 25% for Democrats. Overall, they found 46% in favor of Trump's proposal. I tried weighting for approximate population shares, which (based on my reading of the numbers) would indicate about 25% support Trump's proposal (about where Rasumussen pegs Democrat support). Read your way, it would indicate roughly 75% support for Trump's proposal, which would be at odds with other polls that say support is around 45-46%.

which It would appear that that wild, crazy, racist, bigoted, woman-hating, white supremacist Donald Trump understands America better than most on this board. :P

Yeah, Trump seems to appeal to racist, sexist, xenophobic bigots.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#193 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:22 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:
nate33 wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:Not sure what point you're trying to make. The question seems to be "Has Trump gone too far with his plan to ban all Muslims?" The responses (as presented in the photo) would seem to indicate that whites are far more likely to say "no" -- meaning they do not think Trump has gone too far.

Hispanics and Blacks are the ones who said "No". The way I read it is that Hispanics and AA's are fine with Trump's policy, while some (but not too many) whites think he has gone too far.

I read it just the opposite. :) Plus, this looks to be one of MSNBC's live vote polls, and it doesn't make much sense given other polling data on the subject. Rasmussen's poll found 66% of Republicans favor Trump's proposal vs. about 25% for Democrats. Overall, they found 46% in favor of Trump's proposal. I tried weighting for approximate population shares, which (based on my reading of the numbers) would indicate about 25% support Trump's proposal (about where Rasumussen pegs Democrat support). Read your way, it would indicate roughly 75% support for Trump's proposal, which would be at odds with other polls that say support is around 45-46%.

which It would appear that that wild, crazy, racist, bigoted, woman-hating, white supremacist Donald Trump understands America better than most on this board. :P

Yeah, Trump seems to appeal to racist, sexist, xenophobic bigots.

I readily cede that is an online poll that probably has limited value due to sampling issues. I was mostly just stirring the pot a bit. I thought it was interesting that blacks and Hispanics appeared to agree with Trump on the issue more so than whites. I'll be curious to see if scientific polls back that up.

And I hope you are not suggesting that blacks and Hispanics tend to be racist, sexist, xenophobic bigots. ;)
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#194 » by nuposse04 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:22 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
Really?? That's the rallying cry? That's our biggest threat...despite the fact that Americans do better job of killing themselves than any terrorist could ever hope to achieve.


http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

Image

There are 100 times more non-Muslims than Muslims in our country. So your own data proves that an individual Muslim in America is 100 times more dangerous than a non-Muslim.


In regards to specifically terrorism as neoconservatives want to classically define it...maybe. The point is to lower the murder rate committed in society so a better graph would still be to compare muslim immigrants murder rates compared to national norms. This doesn't prove your xenophobia one bit... but another graph may should we become privy to it :P
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#195 » by TheSecretWeapon » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:28 pm

nate33 wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:
nate33 wrote:Hispanics and Blacks are the ones who said "No". The way I read it is that Hispanics and AA's are fine with Trump's policy, while some (but not too many) whites think he has gone too far.

I read it just the opposite. :) Plus, this looks to be one of MSNBC's live vote polls, and it doesn't make much sense given other polling data on the subject. Rasmussen's poll found 66% of Republicans favor Trump's proposal vs. about 25% for Democrats. Overall, they found 46% in favor of Trump's proposal. I tried weighting for approximate population shares, which (based on my reading of the numbers) would indicate about 25% support Trump's proposal (about where Rasumussen pegs Democrat support). Read your way, it would indicate roughly 75% support for Trump's proposal, which would be at odds with other polls that say support is around 45-46%.

which It would appear that that wild, crazy, racist, bigoted, woman-hating, white supremacist Donald Trump understands America better than most on this board. :P

Yeah, Trump seems to appeal to racist, sexist, xenophobic bigots.

I readily cede that is an online poll that probably has limited value due to sampling issues. I was mostly just stirring the pot a bit. I thought it was interesting that blacks and Hispanics appeared to agree with Trump on the issue more so than whites. I'll be curious to see if scientific polls back that up.

And I hope you are not suggesting that blacks and Hispanics tend to be racist, sexist, xenophobic bigots. ;)

Unless the demographics of the political parties have abruptly switched, odds are that it'll be whites who most favor Trump's proposal and people of color who oppose.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#196 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:34 pm

TGW wrote:Image


I'm also going to quibble a bit about the cutoffs. It's curious that the timeframe was 2002 to 2015. Go back 2 more years and the death total differential is about 3048 to 45. Indeed, if you pick literally any other cutoff date, the numbers look worse for Muslims.

nuposse04 wrote:In regards to specifically terrorism as neoconservatives want to classically define it...maybe. The point is to lower the murder rate committed in society so a better graph would still be to compare muslim immigrants murder rates compared to national norms. This doesn't prove your xenophobia one bit... but another graph may should we become privy to it :P


We don't have data in the U.S., but the data in Europe does indicate that Muslim immigrants in Europe are considerably more likely to commit crime than native Europeans.

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Image

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Re: RE: Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#197 » by JWizmentality » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:52 pm

TGW wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
nate33 wrote:
This is Trump's appeal. His has torn down the wall of censorship so that a true conversation about these issues can take place. If the media is unwilling to critically examine the dark underbelly of Islam and the potential long term ramifications to Western society, then Trump and Le Pen and Viktor Orbán will.


Really?? That's the rallying cry? That's our biggest threat...despite the fact that Americans do better job of killing themselves than any terrorist could ever hope to achieve.


http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html

Image

What point are you trying to make?

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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#198 » by crackhed » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:12 am

popper wrote:
crackhed wrote:republicans should never wonder why minorities don't vote for them. there are some conservative values that are important, particularly those with regards to self responsibility, national economics and the family construct. but the republican party is no place for sane, clear thinking people


I admit it's a dilemma. We have to choose our poison. The choice on the D side is a documented serial liar. Also, Obama's right hand man in Chicago is having a tough time with minorities because it appears he hid the video of an alleged murder of a black man to ensure reelection.

Hillary Clinton’s most repugnant lie

Liar, liar, pantsuit on fire: Hillary Clinton still insists she didn’t tell the grieving families of the Benghazi victims that an anti-Islam video was to blame.

Yet family members say she said just that, three days after the attack, at the Sept. 14, 2012, ceremony at Andrews Air Force Base.
George Stephanopoulos asked her Sunday if she’d told the victims it was about the film. Clinton gave a flat “no.”
She added: “I said very clearly there had been a terrorist group, uh, that had taken responsibility on Facebook, um . . .”

At least four family members disagree.

Tyrone Woods’ father said he hugged Clinton and shook her hand. Then “she said we are going to have the filmmaker arrested who was responsible for the death of my son . . . She said ‘the filmmaker who was responsible for the death of your son.’ ”
Sean Smith’s mother said Hillary is “absolutely lying . . . She said it was because of the video.” Smith’s uncle backs her up.
Glen Doherty’s sister agreed: “When I think back now to that day and what she knew, it shows me a lot about her character that she would choose in that moment to basically perpetuate what she knew was untrue.”

“What she knew” refers to Clinton’s words to daughter Chelsea the night of the assault and the next day to Egypt’s prime minister, which made it plain the secretary of state knew full well that a terror group had long planned the attack.

The lie’s even in her words at the Sept. 14 ceremony: “We’ve seen rage and violence directed at American embassies over an awful Internet video that we had nothing to do with.”

Just why the administration united around this lie is another editorial. The disgrace here is Clinton’s refusal to admit her role — even pushing the fib to “comfort” the bereaved.

Stiff as the competition is, this has to count as her lowest-down, dirtiest lie of all.

http://nypost.com/2015/12/09/hillary-clintons-most-repugnant-lie/



Benghazi hero’s sis rips Hillary Clinton

Glen Doherty's sister says Hillary Clinton can't deny conversation

The heartbroken sister of fallen
 Benghazi hero Glen Doherty 
delivered her sharpest criticism yet of former U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton yesterday, saying the presidential candidate “wasn’t truthful” about the 2012 terrorist attack.

“She knows that she knew what happened that day and she wasn’t truthful,” Kate Quigley said on Boston Herald Radio’s “Morning Meeting” show yesterday. “This is a woman that will do and say anything to get what she wants. I have very little respect for her. I know what she said to me and she can say all day long that she didn’t say it. That’s her cross to bear.” ……

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2015/12/benghazi_hero_s_sis_rips_hillary_clinton


good points popper, can't disagree w/anything you say above. i abhor hillary as much as you do.

however donald chump is several levels more despicable than hillary, reasons ranging from his bigotry to his high school maturity level and everything else in between.

besides hillary has 2 very significant political advantages... 1) she's a woman, and 2) her husband presided over a very good economic period in this country.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#199 » by nuposse04 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:37 am

nate33 wrote:We don't have data in the U.S., but the data in Europe does indicate that Muslim immigrants in Europe are considerably more likely to commit crime than native Europeans.

Image

Image

Image


Europeans and Americans are considerably different in their propensity to commit murder IMO. Immigrants from those predominantly muslim countries DO seem to commit crime more, but I'd be interested into why... is it a socio-economic cause? (lack of integration into society, which should be championed in the Muslim community). But our debate is centered on the likelihood of murder by said immigrants in the US. Again, I believe the US to be a more violent society then the Europeans so if there is a notable difference here, I do think the contrast won't be as stark.

On a side note... "right wing terrorist attack" is probably a limited term. Especially when you consider the fact most of the muslim (Hell even a lot of the non-muslim world) world sees Bush and Cheney's war in Iraq as quasi crusade to benefit the military industrial complex and their own profits. A lot of innocent people have been killed because of that war...and we sugar coat the reality of their murder with terms like collateral damage.

Hell a lot of innocent pakistanis have been murdered by Obama's drone war.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#200 » by popper » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:11 am

edit - too boring

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