Otto Porter - Part 3

[gtn130]

Tatum/Porter comp doesn't really work. Tatum is a far better athlete and much more capable of attacking the paint and slashing in general. His step back 3 is already pretty impressive, and that's not even something in Porter's wheelhouse. Not a knock on Porter - Tatum could be special.

I do agree Porter should be taking more shots.

[zero2hero]

Otto no doubt needs to be more assertive, but if we're comparing him to Tatum, we have to compare scheme as well. He is completely underutilized in Brooks system. Otto would absolutely thrive in Steven's flex offense, since the primary action is to reward the off-ball cutter, and that's one of Otto's biggest strengths. Not only does getting the ball in places where the player is comfortable (Otto has a lethal turn-around midrange J and obviously is a dead-eye shooter) boost confidence, but the constant off-ball screens give the ball-handler a "relief valve" if his shot isn't there.

Compare that to our offense, which is more similar to the Rockets' "pick and roll and space the floor" style. Otto really only gets his shots that he's most comfortable taking if the defense fails to rotate - giving him the 3 - or if they are over zealous in rotating and Otto reads it and cuts to the hoop. Which is why you often see Otto hanging out on the perimeter even though he has the mismatch (the Raptors series comes to mind when he would have Lowry switched onto him) - our offense doesn't naturally flow into guys setting and using off-ball screens that aren't set plays.

[Illmatic12]

Otto no doubt needs to be more assertive, but if we're comparing him to Tatum, we have to compare scheme as well. He is completely underutilized in Brooks system. Otto would absolutely thrive in Steven's flex offense, since the primary action is to reward the off-ball cutter, and that's one of Otto's biggest strengths. Not only does getting the ball in places where the player is comfortable (Otto has a lethal turn-around midrange J and obviously is a dead-eye shooter) boost confidence, but the constant off-ball screens give the ball-handler a "relief valve" if his shot isn't there.

Compare that to our offense, which is more similar to the Rockets' "pick and roll and space the floor" style. Otto really only gets his shots that he's most comfortable taking if the defense fails to rotate - giving him the 3 - or if they are over zealous in rotating and Otto reads it and cuts to the hoop. Which is why you often see Otto hanging out on the perimeter even though he has the mismatch (the Raptors series comes to mind when he would have Lowry switched onto him) - our offense doesn't naturally flow into guys setting and using off-ball screens that aren't set plays.

Who on Boston's offense is strictly an off-ball shooter? Look at their guards/wings - Rozier, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris. All can handle, slash and score in isolation when needed. Tell me which player in that system is only running off screens and shooting long twos like Otto does? And next year they'll be coming back with Irving and Hayward, both who can also slash and score in iso situations.

The Celtics were 7th in isolation frequency during the regular season, and 6th in the playoffs (both higher marks than the Wizards). Their offensive scheme involves setting up mismatches to get guys like Tatum, Brown, Morris, Horford in favorable iso situations. That doesn't favor Otto does it - he rarely attempts to aggressively create his own looks, even though his teammates and coaches have campaigned for him to do so for years now.

I think you're deluding yourself about where Otto's actual skillset is. He wouldn't be doing anything different on Boston - probably posting similar numbers on a similar level of usage. The guys who can handle the ball & create their own shot would still be getting the bulk of offensive opportunities in Stevens offense.

[Dat2U]

Otto no doubt needs to be more assertive, but if we're comparing him to Tatum, we have to compare scheme as well. He is completely underutilized in Brooks system. Otto would absolutely thrive in Steven's flex offense, since the primary action is to reward the off-ball cutter, and that's one of Otto's biggest strengths. Not only does getting the ball in places where the player is comfortable (Otto has a lethal turn-around midrange J and obviously is a dead-eye shooter) boost confidence, but the constant off-ball screens give the ball-handler a "relief valve" if his shot isn't there.

Compare that to our offense, which is more similar to the Rockets' "pick and roll and space the floor" style. Otto really only gets his shots that he's most comfortable taking if the defense fails to rotate - giving him the 3 - or if they are over zealous in rotating and Otto reads it and cuts to the hoop. Which is why you often see Otto hanging out on the perimeter even though he has the mismatch (the Raptors series comes to mind when he would have Lowry switched onto him) - our offense doesn't naturally flow into guys setting and using off-ball screens that aren't set plays.

Who on Boston's offense is strictly an off-ball shooter? Look at their guards/wings - Rozier, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris. All can handle, slash and score in isolation when needed. Tell me which player in that system is only running off screens and shooting long twos like Otto does? And next year they'll be coming back with Irving and Hayward, both who can also slash and score in iso situations.

The Celtics were 7th in isolation frequency during the regular season, and 6th in the playoffs (both higher marks than the Wizards). Their offensive scheme involves setting up mismatches to get guys like Tatum, Brown, Morris, Horford in favorable iso situations. That doesn't favor Otto does it - he rarely attempts to aggressively create his own looks, even though his teammates and coaches have campaigned for him to do so for years now.

I think you're deluding yourself about where Otto's actual skillset is. He wouldn't be doing anything different on Boston - probably posting similar numbers on a similar level of usage. The guys who can handle the ball & create their own shot would still be getting the bulk of offensive opportunities in Stevens offense.

Otto is not strictly a spot up shooter. He doesn't do it a great deal but he can create his own looks off the bounce. Typically its either a runner, fadeway or contested jumper but I've seen him have success when he's forced to create. When you consider his height/length, he doesn't need a lot of space to get off a clean look. So while his handle isn't extremely advanced and he isn't creating a ton of space in ISO scenarios, he doesn't really need to.

Also are you going to tell me either of the Morris brothers are better shot creators than Porter? If so, that's flat out wrong.

[Dark Faze]

Markieff can't move at all. He's a truck.

Marcus however is a lot more springy and can drive decently enough. Better than what we've seen of Otto so far.

Otto should drive the ball more. I know his handle is tighter than Kelly's. People need to accept the fact that Otto has faults contributing to this teams issues.

[Illmatic12]

Otto no doubt needs to be more assertive, but if we're comparing him to Tatum, we have to compare scheme as well. He is completely underutilized in Brooks system. Otto would absolutely thrive in Steven's flex offense, since the primary action is to reward the off-ball cutter, and that's one of Otto's biggest strengths. Not only does getting the ball in places where the player is comfortable (Otto has a lethal turn-around midrange J and obviously is a dead-eye shooter) boost confidence, but the constant off-ball screens give the ball-handler a "relief valve" if his shot isn't there.

Compare that to our offense, which is more similar to the Rockets' "pick and roll and space the floor" style. Otto really only gets his shots that he's most comfortable taking if the defense fails to rotate - giving him the 3 - or if they are over zealous in rotating and Otto reads it and cuts to the hoop. Which is why you often see Otto hanging out on the perimeter even though he has the mismatch (the Raptors series comes to mind when he would have Lowry switched onto him) - our offense doesn't naturally flow into guys setting and using off-ball screens that aren't set plays.

Who on Boston's offense is strictly an off-ball shooter? Look at their guards/wings - Rozier, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris. All can handle, slash and score in isolation when needed. Tell me which player in that system is only running off screens and shooting long twos like Otto does? And next year they'll be coming back with Irving and Hayward, both who can also slash and score in iso situations.

The Celtics were 7th in isolation frequency during the regular season, and 6th in the playoffs (both higher marks than the Wizards). Their offensive scheme involves setting up mismatches to get guys like Tatum, Brown, Morris, Horford in favorable iso situations. That doesn't favor Otto does it - he rarely attempts to aggressively create his own looks, even though his teammates and coaches have campaigned for him to do so for years now.

I think you're deluding yourself about where Otto's actual skillset is. He wouldn't be doing anything different on Boston - probably posting similar numbers on a similar level of usage. The guys who can handle the ball & create their own shot would still be getting the bulk of offensive opportunities in Stevens offense.

Otto is not strictly a spot up shooter. He doesn't do it a great deal but he can create his own looks off the bounce. Typically its either a runner, fadeway or contested jumper but I've seen him have success when he's forced to create. When you consider his height/length, he doesn't need a lot of space to get off a clean look. So while his handle isn't extremely advanced and he isn't creating a ton of space in ISO scenarios, he doesn't really need to.

Also are you going to tell me either of the Morris brothers are better shot creators than Porter? If so, that's flat out wrong.

Otto Porter was 32nd-percentile on isolation play types.
Marcus Morris was 60th percentile in isolation PPP.
Markieff was 70th percentile in isolation PPP.

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TeamNameAbbreviation&dir=1


So uhh yes? Of course I'm telling you they're both better shot creators than Porter. That is obvious.. scoring in isolation against smaller/slower defenders is their most proficent NBA-level skill. If they didn't have that ability neither of the Morrii would even be in the league

Talking about Otto's height/length is kind of a red herring, bc he may have the length to get off contested looks but in practice rarely attempts to do so unless he's completely open. He turns down slightly contested shots and would rather pass the ball away. I can guarantee that if you switched Otto Porter and Jayson Tatum right now, Otto would fall to the 4th-5th option on that team behind Marcus Morris. I'm not saying Morris is better than Otto, rather that Morris would be more willing to aggressively take shot attempts within the offense whereas Otto would defer.

[NatP4]

Markieff can't move at all. He's a truck.

Marcus however is a lot more springy and can drive decently enough. Better than what we've seen of Otto so far.

Otto should drive the ball more. I know his handle is tighter than Kelly's. People need to accept the fact that Otto has faults contributing to this teams issues.

He and Satoransky are the only players that give consistent effort and play unselfishly every second they are on the court. If the rest of the team played exactly like them, we would be a significantly better team.

[Illmatic12]

Markieff can't move at all. He's a truck.

Marcus however is a lot more springy and can drive decently enough. Better than what we've seen of Otto so far.

Otto should drive the ball more. I know his handle is tighter than Kelly's. People need to accept the fact that Otto has faults contributing to this teams issues.

I don't even think that's true anymore. Kelly's main problem is obviously with decision-making and knowing when to drive into the paint vs when he shouldn't, but in terms of handle he's probably surpassed Otto.

I've never seen Otto perform a dribble move like this, for instance

Read on Twitter

[Dark Faze]

its flashes like that that make me want to give him another summer with Hanlen before moving him...

[gtn130]

Markieff can't move at all. He's a truck.

Marcus however is a lot more springy and can drive decently enough. Better than what we've seen of Otto so far.

This. It really does stand out how much better Marcus moves than Markieff.

[DCZards]

I don't even think that's true anymore. Kelly's main problem is obviously with decision-making and knowing when to drive into the paint vs when he shouldn't, but in terms of handle he's probably surpassed Otto.

Got to agree with illmatic here. Seems to me that Oubre has surpassed Otto when it comes to having the ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket. It's Kelly's decisionmaking that usually gets him in trouble--on both ends of the court.

But you gotta love Kelly's fire and effort. He just needs to slow down and let the game come to him. And knock down that 3 pt shot as consistently as he did during the first half of last season. Kelly is only 22 so it's far too soon to consider him a finished product.

[Dark Faze]

I don't even think that's true anymore. Kelly's main problem is obviously with decision-making and knowing when to drive into the paint vs when he shouldn't, but in terms of handle he's probably surpassed Otto.

Got to agree with illmatic here. Seems to me that Oubre has surpassed Otto when it comes to having the ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket. It's Kelly's decisionmaking that usually gets him in trouble--on both ends of the court.

But you gotta love Kelly's fire and effort. He just needs to slow down and let the game come to him. And knock down that 3 pt shot as consistently as he did during the first half of last season. Kelly is only 22 so it's far too soon to consider him a finished product.

Well I'm sure we'd all love to keep developing him if we could keep him on a rookie scale contract. Problem is there are tank teams that probably see him as a perfect investment. If I'm the Kings, why not overpay Kelly and see what happens? Something like 3 years, 45 million would be crippling to the Wiz.

[zero2hero]

Otto no doubt needs to be more assertive, but if we're comparing him to Tatum, we have to compare scheme as well. He is completely underutilized in Brooks system. Otto would absolutely thrive in Steven's flex offense, since the primary action is to reward the off-ball cutter, and that's one of Otto's biggest strengths. Not only does getting the ball in places where the player is comfortable (Otto has a lethal turn-around midrange J and obviously is a dead-eye shooter) boost confidence, but the constant off-ball screens give the ball-handler a "relief valve" if his shot isn't there.

Compare that to our offense, which is more similar to the Rockets' "pick and roll and space the floor" style. Otto really only gets his shots that he's most comfortable taking if the defense fails to rotate - giving him the 3 - or if they are over zealous in rotating and Otto reads it and cuts to the hoop. Which is why you often see Otto hanging out on the perimeter even though he has the mismatch (the Raptors series comes to mind when he would have Lowry switched onto him) - our offense doesn't naturally flow into guys setting and using off-ball screens that aren't set plays.

Who on Boston's offense is strictly an off-ball shooter? Look at their guards/wings - Rozier, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris. All can handle, slash and score in isolation when needed. Tell me which player in that system is only running off screens and shooting long twos like Otto does? And next year they'll be coming back with Irving and Hayward, both who can also slash and score in iso situations.

The Celtics were 7th in isolation frequency during the regular season, and 6th in the playoffs (both higher marks than the Wizards). Their offensive scheme involves setting up mismatches to get guys like Tatum, Brown, Morris, Horford in favorable iso situations. That doesn't favor Otto does it - he rarely attempts to aggressively create his own looks, even though his teammates and coaches have campaigned for him to do so for years now.

I think you're deluding yourself about where Otto's actual skillset is. He wouldn't be doing anything different on Boston - probably posting similar numbers on a similar level of usage. The guys who can handle the ball & create their own shot would still be getting the bulk of offensive opportunities in Stevens offense.

Otto's has just as handle, slashing and scoring ability as Jaylen Brown. What Otto lacks in above the rim play, he makes up for it with a very good pull-up midrange/runner. In Brown's second year, he has put up quite similar numbers to Otto's across the board. And I expect him to surpass Otto's numbers next year, due to the fact that the system is better suited to his skillset (similar to Otto's).

[Illmatic12]

Otto no doubt needs to be more assertive, but if we're comparing him to Tatum, we have to compare scheme as well. He is completely underutilized in Brooks system. Otto would absolutely thrive in Steven's flex offense, since the primary action is to reward the off-ball cutter, and that's one of Otto's biggest strengths. Not only does getting the ball in places where the player is comfortable (Otto has a lethal turn-around midrange J and obviously is a dead-eye shooter) boost confidence, but the constant off-ball screens give the ball-handler a "relief valve" if his shot isn't there.

Compare that to our offense, which is more similar to the Rockets' "pick and roll and space the floor" style. Otto really only gets his shots that he's most comfortable taking if the defense fails to rotate - giving him the 3 - or if they are over zealous in rotating and Otto reads it and cuts to the hoop. Which is why you often see Otto hanging out on the perimeter even though he has the mismatch (the Raptors series comes to mind when he would have Lowry switched onto him) - our offense doesn't naturally flow into guys setting and using off-ball screens that aren't set plays.

Who on Boston's offense is strictly an off-ball shooter? Look at their guards/wings - Rozier, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris. All can handle, slash and score in isolation when needed. Tell me which player in that system is only running off screens and shooting long twos like Otto does? And next year they'll be coming back with Irving and Hayward, both who can also slash and score in iso situations.

The Celtics were 7th in isolation frequency during the regular season, and 6th in the playoffs (both higher marks than the Wizards). Their offensive scheme involves setting up mismatches to get guys like Tatum, Brown, Morris, Horford in favorable iso situations. That doesn't favor Otto does it - he rarely attempts to aggressively create his own looks, even though his teammates and coaches have campaigned for him to do so for years now.

I think you're deluding yourself about where Otto's actual skillset is. He wouldn't be doing anything different on Boston - probably posting similar numbers on a similar level of usage. The guys who can handle the ball & create their own shot would still be getting the bulk of offensive opportunities in Stevens offense.

Otto's has just as handle, slashing and scoring ability as Jaylen Brown. What Otto lacks in above the rim play, he makes up for it with a very good pull-up midrange/runner. In Brown's second year, he has put up quite similar numbers to Otto's across the board. And I expect him to surpass Otto's numbers next year, due to the fact that the system is better suited to his skillset (similar to Otto's).

Brown is far more athletic than Otto. It would be unfair to even compare them athletically, Brown possesses a much better first step and leaping ability around the rim . Not to mention he’s stronger/physical and doesn’t get pushed around by big wings.

I’d rather have the guy who can beat his man and draw a foul once in a while. Sorry but the upside of Otto’s long twos (while efficient, yes) simply doesn’t excite me anymore.

Boston’s system is NOT suited to Otto’s skill set. You continue to be in denial about that. Boston’s system is suited to aggressive, physical athletes who can handle, slash and if you put them in space they’re offensively capable of beating their man 1v1. John, Brad, KO would all be be major threats within Stevens system. Otto ? He’d be better off on a team like the Spurs, maybe

[zero2hero]

Who on Boston's offense is strictly an off-ball shooter? Look at their guards/wings - Rozier, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris. All can handle, slash and score in isolation when needed. Tell me which player in that system is only running off screens and shooting long twos like Otto does? And next year they'll be coming back with Irving and Hayward, both who can also slash and score in iso situations.

The Celtics were 7th in isolation frequency during the regular season, and 6th in the playoffs (both higher marks than the Wizards). Their offensive scheme involves setting up mismatches to get guys like Tatum, Brown, Morris, Horford in favorable iso situations. That doesn't favor Otto does it - he rarely attempts to aggressively create his own looks, even though his teammates and coaches have campaigned for him to do so for years now.

I think you're deluding yourself about where Otto's actual skillset is. He wouldn't be doing anything different on Boston - probably posting similar numbers on a similar level of usage. The guys who can handle the ball & create their own shot would still be getting the bulk of offensive opportunities in Stevens offense.

Otto's has just as handle, slashing and scoring ability as Jaylen Brown. What Otto lacks in above the rim play, he makes up for it with a very good pull-up midrange/runner. In Brown's second year, he has put up quite similar numbers to Otto's across the board. And I expect him to surpass Otto's numbers next year, due to the fact that the system is better suited to his skillset (similar to Otto's).

Brown is far more athletic than Otto. It would be unfair to even compare them athletically, Brown possesses a much better first step and leaping ability around the rim . Not to mention he’s stronger/physical and doesn’t get pushed around by big wings.

I’d rather have the guy who can beat his man and draw a foul once in a while. Sorry but the upside of Otto’s long twos (while efficient, yes) simply doesn’t excite me anymore.

Boston’s system is NOT suited to Otto’s skill set. You continue to be in denial about that. Boston’s system is suited to aggressive, physical athletes who can handle, slash and if you put them in space they’re offensively capable of beating their man 1v1. John, Brad, KO would all be be major threats within Stevens system. Otto ? He’d be better off on a team like the Spurs, maybe

Lol wut. Boston's base offense is the flex offense. It's ALL about making off-ball reads and cuts. There are wrinkles after that they do to put their players in position to succeed, but their main actions are flex based. Please, inform me of what offense they run and show me video proof.

[FAH1223]

Yeah, Otto would be thriving in Boston under Stevens flex system.

[zero2hero]

^^ Exactly. My main point wasn't to compare Otto to Tatum. But that the BASE actions of the flex offense suit Otto's skillset to a T. The two main actions are a cut off a screen along the baseline, or coming off a pin-down, two areas of the court where Otto has an elite skillset in. Whereas the base actions of our offense is to fill an open space, or cut on an over-rotating defense. For those of you in here who don't know what the flex is, here's a breakdown. Boston plays tonight. Do yourself a favor and count how many times they run these motions.

Watch on YouTube

[ptptpt]

^^ Exactly. My main point wasn't to compare Otto to Tatum. But that the BASE actions of the flex offense suit Otto's skillset to a T. The two main actions are a cut off a screen along the baseline, or coming off a pin-down, two areas of the court where Otto has an elite skillset in. Whereas the base actions of our offense is to fill an open space, or cut on an over-rotating defense. For those of you in here who don't know what the flex is, here's a breakdown. Boston plays tonight. Do yourself a favor and count how many times they run these motions.

Watch on YouTube

I don't know if it is the perfect fit for Otto. It is definitely a good offense for Porter as it does highlight his biggest strength, which is his intelligence. But it also may highlight one of his biggest weaknesses as well, which is dribbling and individual shot creation. If he plays more in the post, then it becomes great as his post game is pretty good. But as far as perfect fit goes, if Boston is running it primarily, its great as there are enough ballhandlers to where Porter doesn't have to worry so much about creating his own shot. But for the Wizards, he definitely is gonna need to do some ball handling and strength work in order to fully take advantage of the system.

[Coach76]

The Sports Capitol seems to get it: Otto is misused by Brooks

https://thesportscapitol.com/2018/07/13/otto-porter-remains-underappreciated-and-its-time-he-forces-change%e2%80%8b/

[payitforward]

Otto's has just as handle, slashing and scoring ability as Jaylen Brown. What Otto lacks in above the rim play, he makes up for it with a very good pull-up midrange/runner. In Brown's second year, he has put up quite similar numbers to Otto's across the board. And I expect him to surpass Otto's numbers next year, due to the fact that the system is better suited to his skillset (similar to Otto's).

What? Huh? How'd I miss this whacko claim? Brown put up quite similar numbers to Otto's across the board? Wow!!

Oh, I see. You mean they scored about the same number of points per 40 minutes. That's it, right? Per 40 minutes only .25 points separates them.

That's "quite similar" no doubt. But, ummmm, again per 40 minutes...

Didn't Porter get about 25% more defensive rebounds?
Didn't Otto get 33% more offensive boards?
20% more assists?
1/3 more blocks?
Almost 50% more steals?

What's the most "similar" among those? Plus, didn't Brown...

Turn the ball over almost 50% more often than Porter?
Didn't he commit 1/3 more fouls than Otto?
Didn't Otto shoot almost 54% -- to Brown's almost 51% -- on 2 point shots?
Wasn't Otto 44.1% vs. Brown's 39.5% on 3-pointers? Are those 2 %s "quite similar?"
Brown was under 65% from the line. Otto was almost 83% -- "quite similar?"

So... how is his skillset quite similar? &, if he is going to "surpass Otto's numbers next year," is he first going to get himself somewhere near Otto's numbers? Because he hasn't done that yet.

They maybe quite similar some day, or at least a little similar -- for starters. Brown may turn out to be a better player than Otto for that matter. It's not inconceivable.

But first Jaylen Brown has to get to where he is anywhere near as good as Otto Porter, wouldn't you say?