The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[LyricalRico]

Finally the media is taking a look Flip's coaching.
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page ... daily-dime

*Yawn*

He gives Flip a C-minus while at the same time saying that it's "baffling" that he's not having more success and admitting that he doesn't have the right PG for his system. Once Ernie makes the necessary changes at the deadline and over the summer, we'll see Flip at his best.

[likwitdesi]

It is clear Flip is unhappy and probably does not want to go through with a rebuilding situation. I feel we should just buy him out at this point. He is sure to get some offers this offseason.

We need to hire a teacher for the rebuild and I can think of no one better than Dave Joerger. Remember how many of you guys were advocating him years ago? Guess what. He has now in his 3rd season as an assistant coach with the Grizzlies so he has that requisite NBA experience under his belt.

This guy had a great track record coaching minor league basketball before this, winning more CBA championships than Phil Jackson and Flip Saunders. He also won some championships in the D-League with the Dakota Wizards. During this timespan, I believe he had 18 callups, which is a clear indication of his player development skills. Furthermore, during his time in the pros, the Grizzlies have seen improvement out of their young players such as Mayo and Gasol, which is fueling its playoff push. This past summer league, Joerger led the Grizzlies entry to a 5-0 record.

He would be the Wizards' version of Boudreau.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Bottom line is just what you said, likwitdesi, Joerger's great track record points towards success.

I've wanted him to be the Wizards coach since back in November, 2008, when EJ was fired.

Now that they've blown it up, I think you're 100% correct about Flip and the direction the Wizards should go.

[mohammed10]

It is clear Flip is unhappy and probably does not want to go through with a rebuilding situation. I feel we should just buy him out at this point. He is sure to get some offers this offseason.

We need to hire a teacher for the rebuild and I can think of no one better than Dave Joerger. Remember how many of you guys were advocating him years ago? Guess what. He has now in his 3rd season as an assistant coach with the Grizzlies so he has that requisite NBA experience under his belt.

This guy had a great track record coaching minor league basketball before this, winning more CBA championships than Phil Jackson and Flip Saunders. He also won some championships in the D-League with the Dakota Wizards. During this timespan, I believe he had 18 callups, which is a clear indication of his player development skills. Furthermore, during his time in the pros, the Grizzlies have seen improvement out of their young players such as Mayo and Gasol, which is fueling its playoff push. This past summer league, Joerger led the Grizzlies entry to a 5-0 record.

He would be the Wizards' version of Boudreau.

Excellent post!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Noone knew Flip would have a 17-33 record at this point when he was hired.

What I can say is I truly believe Flip's approach to EJ's roster has been disastrously bad. I disagree with 95% of the posters here who think Flip's done well with what he has. I think Flip's shown as much lack of creativity and lack of imagination and lack of flexibility with this roster as could be imagined.

Dat argued with me on this and I respect him, but I think the way Flip used guys greatly contributed to muliple losses. Low offensive outputs from a group of scorers is the by product of an autocratic approach of system over personnel on hand. The University of Hawaii has a coach doing the same thing. Has a passing offense that requires sophiscation beyond the players on hand. They get their asses handed to them worse than would if they just played their own games. What Flip does in addition to asking Butler to do what he didn't do well is just flat out not mix up the lineups to get the energetic, young guys in when they can succeed.

Ultimately, I think the real reason the Wizards have now been decimated is Flip Saunders as coach. I don't care about his past successes. I don't blame EJ for these players, either. I say Flip took potential and turned into poo this season. He had Haywood healthy. He had Gil at some strength and improving. He had the same Nick Young that one game outplayed D. Wade and STILL found a way to prefer DeShawn.

He messed with Butler's game. He road injured Gil early. He stopped bringing energy like McGuire off the bench when teams like Oklahoma City have used Sefolosha, or Memphis has played guys like Carroll and Young, and teams like Minnesota have stuck with Brewer--to where they've had productive minutes. WHAT FLIP DID INSTEAD is play Jamison and Butler top-5 to top-10 minutes in the league.

Just like EJ. Same.

And he threw in lots of DeShawn and Fabricio to the detriment of minutes of Young, Blatche, and McGee when those players need to be developed. This season a guy who earned 15 minutes a night last season can't play on a .300 team. That's on Flip more than McGee.

Flip has been amazingly sucky.

This season to me has been the perfect storm of craptastic for the Wizards. Injured players. Gil about to go to prison and suspended. Ernie Grunfeld pulling off trades that freaking STINK LIKE DEAD FISH AT THE WHARF. Just giving away Haywood and Butler after paying Jamison and Arenas. And deciding to trade Butler but keep Jamison.

Like Florida said when James died on "Good Times" ..... Damn. Damn. Damn.

Flip's coaching had me saying damn all the way back in November.

Let me go on record as saying I believe he's every bit as culpable in the bad record and ultimate demise of the Wizards as Ernie blanking Grunfeld.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Having vented all that, the reality is Flip's in the first of four seasons on his contract.

I'm the type person who will be the first to come back and say I was wrong if someone proves it in time.

I gotta see what Flip does now. The last 30 games and the years remaining.

[Hoopalotta]

I disagree with 95% of the posters here who think Flip's done well with what he has.

Whoa, I think that's way, way off base and your misreading the actual motivation of the supposed 'defenders'.

Nobody is pleased with anything.

I think the majority of 'Flip defenders' are in fact pretty lukewarm on Flip and are just getting all contrarian when you suggest that with lineup changes, which are frankly unrealistic taking into account a myriad of practical aspects, we'd actually be a good team. I think the majority of the resistance to the 'Flipocalypse' argument is that he's only one of the problems, not that people love Flip.

If we're talking coaching though, I mean, I for one dislike the entire idea of the necessity of having a point guard-centric offense long term, as I think that hinges our hopes on misguided personnel requirements when we'd be a lot better off drafting BPA, getting some wild and woolly wing scorer and running things through him. Or a post up guy, whatever. How many point guard dominated teams have won the championship if we don't count Magic?

And I hate that we played Jamison for 40 minutes a night and wrecked him physically with the trade deadline coming up and the team floundering. Inexcusable tactical myopia in the face of much larger strategic problems. The front office should have clacked the gavel there though.

I could find more things to complain about, but, I still don't think we'd be an actual good team with different lineups. Never bought into that.

Personally I hope that Flip agrees to a buyout if for no other reason than that we should have a cheaper coach while we slum it up. But I don't think he'll get fired with all that money on the contract.

[Hoopalotta]

(more or less moved over from the Javale thread)...

To clarify a bit: I could definitely see saying that Flip hasn't done a great job and the team would have been better served under different coaching, I think that's fair.

A) The team has not played with consistent intensity'. Just horrible duds some nights. Barely competing.
B) Flip could never get anything out of Butler and didn't get much out of Foye early. Not all his fault, but still.
C) Flip played some of the vets WAAAAYYY too many minutes given their age.
D) It does not sound like the Locker room has been good this year, though there is a chicken and egg point there with the loosening.

But my main objection is that I don't think radical lineup changes would have helped at all, especially seeing as that the locker room has been so bad. And doubly especially in the midst of a death spiral in December or so, I don't think the fix would have been to say "Hey Butler (or Jamison), you're on the bench". Huge problems. Bickering. Tantrums. Trade demands. Poo in shoes. Total implosion. These guys aren't robots and politics matters. Though as it so happens, we had a total implosion anyway, so, ya' know.

If I could just point to one thing with this team, I would say this: if over the summer the front office knows that Butler is valued around the league and that he and Gil don't get along, you gotta bloody well move Butler then and there. HUGE mistake right there. I don't care what the numbers say, but those guys almost never collaborated on positive basketball plays, and that's just nasty disharmony to have at the top of your roster.

That really wasn't apparent from the outside, but sounds like this sort of rift was lingering and well documented from within.

To me, that just sewed the seeds for a lot of the turmoil, as it exacerbated the chemistry issues terribly. It's just not going to be a real good team if the 1st and 3rd options can't work together and that's just a big problem for the coaches to work around. Once the loosening started, the expectations combined with the chemistry issues (on court and off), just sunk the ship (sky's the limit).

[hands11]

In Flips post game interview after the Denver game he says he plans on continuing to play the whole roster like he has been.

Actually I think he got everyone some playing time in the first quarter.

He made a comment about how he couldn't do that before with the roster we had.

[closg00]

I respectfully post here to suggest that the increase in our offensive output could be in-part because these last two games you have a group of guys thrown together with a very loose set of instructions. Flip Saunder's offense in-effect has not been implemented. Carmel Anthony pointed-out correctly that this new group had not been scouted yet. Gonna enjoy the ride as-long as it lasts. Refreshing change all-round.

EDIT: Just as EJ had to have Ruffin taken away from, Flip finally has no-choice but to play Blatche and McGee

[hands11]

I respectfully post here to suggest that the increase in our offensive output could be in-part because these last two games you have a group of guys thrown together with a very loose set of instructions. Flip Saunder's offense in-effect has not been implemented. Carmel Anthony pointed-out correctly that this new group had not been scouted yet. Gonna enjoy the ride as-long as it lasts. Refreshing change all-round.

EDIT: Just as EJ had to have Ruffin taken away from, Flip finally has no-choice but to play Blatche and McGee

Did Melo really say that. If so, that's pretty weak.

I think Denver should know Howard by now.

As for the other, while they have not been scouted as a group, they also haven't had a chance to practice together either. So hopefully as other teams know them better, they will also be getting better as a group.

I can see McGee instantly bettering him game just by learning not to shot jack so much. These guys are going to get better, not worse.

Sorry Melo. Be a man and just say... hey, people shouldn't over look these guys. They played with energy, they are athletic and long and they beat us.

[jimij]

Melo didn't say that. Billups said it after they beat the Cavs and before they even flew to DC. He was just responding to a reporter talking about the next game and tried to make a joke.

[Donkey McDonkerton]

Did Melo really say that. If so, that's pretty weak.

I actually read a quote from Billups the night before the game, and he said something like..who's playing for washington? We wont even be able to scout them.

So to be fair, they saw that coming.

[montestewart]

I respectfully post here to suggest that the increase in our offensive output could be in-part because these last two games you have a group of guys thrown together with a very loose set of instructions. Flip Saunder's offense in-effect has not been implemented. Carmel Anthony pointed-out correctly that this new group had not been scouted yet. Gonna enjoy the ride as-long as it lasts. Refreshing change all-round.

EDIT: Just as EJ had to have Ruffin taken away from, Flip finally has no-choice but to play Blatche and McGee

I'm surprised he didn't say it was because Chris Anderson was injured. All those new players are Western Conference, and of the three that got PT, only Singleton perhaps is not a really known quantity. Imagine the excuse, "We hadn't scouted that fringe role player, and that was why we lost. We'll be ready for him next time."

[Wizards2Lottery]

To Flips credit, he is not a bad coach and he will install some good fundamentals in our young guys unlike EJ who basically made everyone a no defense playing chucker. I'm not a fan of Flip's rotation but in all honesty, I don't think I'll ever be a fan of any NBA coaches rotations. At the end of the day, they are the ones coaching and I'm the one sitting on a couch.

At least the youth of this team is exposed to someone who will call you out for defense and being a lazy POS unlike Eddie Jordan who played favorites and had the same pathetic excuse "They MADE SHATS" at the end of every game.

Wizards first-year coach Flip Saunders recently went on a tirade about the team's defense, or lack thereof after a recent loss.

"This team needs a mindset change," Saunders told reporters. "This team for the last five years has been known as one of the worst defensive teams in the league. Until our guys decide that it hurts when teams score on you, we've got no chance."

Washington's coach the previous four-plus years? Eddie Jordan.

Flip will do well without having EFJ's boys. This is now the Flip Saunders Wizards, not the "Was Eddie Jordans team but then Flip took over" Wizards.

[Spence]

EJ sucks. Tapscott sucks. Saunders sucks. How many coaches have to suck before someone considers that maybe it isn't the coach that sucks, it's the collection of players to be coached? It wasn't the coach that needed to be fired, it was the players.

I think one of the toughest things to do in sports is coach a roster filled with pissed-off starters who are listless and lack motivation. They feel entitled by past achievements, but when success doesn't come, they mope and whine and resist proper coaching.

That's what Flip Saunders walked into this season. I think players like Gilbert and Caron were basically uncoachable -- they just didn't want to hear it from anyone, particularly the new guy. Saunders has won everywhere he's been and he didn't forget how to coach in that one year he sat out. [By the way, how has Detroit done without him? Just, you know, just askin'.]

[Wizards2Lottery]

EJ sucks. Tapscott sucks. Saunders sucks. How many coaches have to suck before someone considers that maybe it isn't the coach that sucks, it's the collection of players to be coached? It wasn't the coach that needed to be fired, it was the players.

I think one of the toughest things to do in sports is coach a roster filled with pissed-off starters who are listless and lack motivation. They feel entitled by past achievements, but when success doesn't come, they mope and whine and resist proper coaching.

That's what Flip Saunders walked into this season. I think players like Gilbert and Caron were basically uncoachable -- they just didn't want to hear it from anyone, particularly the new guy. Saunders has won everywhere he's been and he didn't forget how to coach in that one year he sat out. [By the way, how has Detroit done without him? Just, you know, just askin'.]

Actually I agree with you. Kinda feel bad about this thread but I started this at a time when most of us were still delusional that we had a team capable of winning. Flip tried to get to win with the veterans (even though the younger players were outperforming them at times) but it just wasn't happening.

I think players like Gilbert and Caron were basically uncoachable

Gilbert wasn't uncoachable. Caron yes and AJ maybe but I never saw Gil bitch and moan the way AJ and Caron have.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Spence, I think EJ, Tapscott, and Flip ALL sucked when they stuck with Jamison/Butler, each playing over 40 minutes, when it wasn't working.

For years I've been hearing about how McGuire or McGee or Blatche are on the bench because they're inconsistent, no good, can't play. That Flip knows what he's doing. Meanwhile, the Wizards go 19-63 for a whole season, and despite the fact that Blatche and Young both had better +/- (yes, a flawed stat) than Butler and Jamison; last season the veterans blamed the young guys while Jordan (but he even played McGee), Tapscott, and Flip all catered to the contract guys.

Flip rode Arenas/Butler early this season when they were disastrously bad.

My thoughts NOW are Flip can just do his thing and coach, because he's not afraid of alienating powerful, rich, players who have a sense of entitlement. Those guys, and Haywood, are gone now.

As I said in the very first post, before these new guys even won their first together; this is already a better team. Now, I expect Flip to be a better coach. I fully expect them to win 30 games by season's end.

That said, I don't take a thing back that I said earlier about Flip. He was playing egos, veterans, and IMO not to win. He's had athleticism to some extent that he didn't use. Of course he's got MUCH BETTER athletes now. I think scoring guys like Butler and Jamison are really overrated.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

EJ sucks. Tapscott sucks. Saunders sucks. How many coaches have to suck before someone considers that maybe it isn't the coach that sucks, it's the collection of players to be coached? It wasn't the coach that needed to be fired, it was the players.

I think one of the toughest things to do in sports is coach a roster filled with pissed-off starters who are listless and lack motivation. They feel entitled by past achievements, but when success doesn't come, they mope and whine and resist proper coaching.

That's what Flip Saunders walked into this season. I think players like Gilbert and Caron were basically uncoachable -- they just didn't want to hear it from anyone, particularly the new guy. Saunders has won everywhere he's been and he didn't forget how to coach in that one year he sat out. [By the way, how has Detroit done without him? Just, you know, just askin'.]

I thought all Flip had to do is give Arenas or Butler a 15-minute game. However, I think it was dandridge or someone else that pointed out to me the culture just wasn't right for Flip to do that. Others pointed to it ruining their trade value.

I think the Wizards should have subbed McGuire for Butler when he went into hero mode. They could have had Foye playing more early in the season. When Flip went with the short bench I thought all along he could have been using 10 players.


This past game was the perfect illustration of what happens when the whole team gets involved.

If you look back THIS SEASON Flip had 3 or 4 wins where that's exactly what he did. He gave the team hope and played everyone. He didnt placate Jamison or Butler or Arenas. Flip got wins.

I'm happy with everything now, but I really think things would have been better earlier. The good news is the whiny, sense of entitlement players are all gone except for one.

And he's got some humbling coming his way.

[Wizards2Lottery]

That said, I don't take a thing back that I said earlier about Flip. He was playing egos, veterans, and IMO not to win. He's had athleticism to some extent that he didn't use. Of course he's got MUCH BETTER athletes now. I think scoring guys like Butler and Jamison are really overrated.

Flip was under pressure to win NOW with the assembled group of veterans. He really had no choice from the front office. The expectations were riding Flips decisions.