Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart
payitforward wrote:My preferred trading partner for Beal, however, is still the Celtics. They have a pretty full roster and a zillion draft picks.
How about Marcus Smart, the #23 pick (take Brice Johnson), the #31 pick (take Diamond Stone or Cheick Diallo?), & the #35 pick (Melo Trimble? Caris Levert?) for Beal?
No Marcus Smart? How about Jordan Mickey instead? Not enough? How about Sullinger?
Just me dreamin'....
payitforward wrote:My preferred trading partner for Beal, however, is still the Celtics. They have a pretty full roster and a zillion draft picks.
How about Marcus Smart, the #23 pick (take Brice Johnson), the #31 pick (take Diamond Stone or Cheick Diallo?), & the #35 pick (Melo Trimble? Caris Levert?) for Beal?
No Marcus Smart? How about Jordan Mickey instead? Not enough? How about Sullinger?
Just me dreamin'....
nate33 wrote:payitforward wrote:My preferred trading partner for Beal, however, is still the Celtics. They have a pretty full roster and a zillion draft picks.
How about Marcus Smart, the #23 pick (take Brice Johnson), the #31 pick (take Diamond Stone or Cheick Diallo?), & the #35 pick (Melo Trimble? Caris Levert?) for Beal?
No Marcus Smart? How about Jordan Mickey instead? Not enough? How about Sullinger?
Just me dreamin'....
I'd settle for Avery Bradley and the #23 pick.
nate33 wrote:If the Wizards make any trades, I kinda think that the move to make is to trade Wall and Gortat, get young, tank, and built for 2018. We are in an unenviable position of having cap room at a time when everyone is overpriced. The only "bargains" will be superstars, and we're not an attractive enough destination to land one. Basically, we have zero chance and getting as good as Cleveland, OKC or Golden State over the next 2 years so what's the point?
The best move may be to trade our most overrated player (Wall) for as much value as we can get. I'm not trying to insult Wall by labeling him "overrated". I'm just trying to be realistic. If you ask most people around they league, they'd consider Wall the 4th or 5th best PG in the game. In reality, there isn't much to distinguish him from the guys that rank in the 8-13 range. And given that his game is based on athleticism, I think he's already at his peak and will probably decline a bit earlier than skill guys like Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. Maybe the smart move is to sell high on him.
Likewise, Gortat will be over the hill before this team really has a chance to compete, so he should be on the trading block as well.
We have 3 really young players in Beal, Oubre and Porter, plus Satoransky. If we can get some high picks out of Wall and Gortat, maybe we can find some talented young frontcourt players, and spend the next 2 years tanking and developing. Spend our cap room on youngish guys like Biyombo, Sullinger, Acy, Motiejunas and/or Terrence Jones and look for a window of opportunity 3 years down the road.
nate33 wrote:If the Wizards make any trades, I kinda think that the move to make is to trade Wall and Gortat, get young, tank, and built for 2018. We are in an unenviable position of having cap room at a time when everyone is overpriced. The only "bargains" will be superstars, and we're not an attractive enough destination to land one. Basically, we have zero chance and getting as good as Cleveland, OKC or Golden State over the next 2 years so what's the point?
The best move may be to trade our most overrated player (Wall) for as much value as we can get. I'm not trying to insult Wall by labeling him "overrated". I'm just trying to be realistic. If you ask most people around they league, they'd consider Wall the 4th or 5th best PG in the game. In reality, there isn't much to distinguish him from the guys that rank in the 8-13 range. And given that his game is based on athleticism, I think he's already at his peak and will probably decline a bit earlier than skill guys like Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. Maybe the smart move is to sell high on him.
Likewise, Gortat will be over the hill before this team really has a chance to compete, so he should be on the trading block as well.
We have 3 really young players in Beal, Oubre and Porter, plus Satoransky. If we can get some high picks out of Wall and Gortat, maybe we can find some talented young frontcourt players, and spend the next 2 years tanking and developing. Spend our cap room on youngish guys like Biyombo, Sullinger, Acy, Motiejunas and/or Terrence Jones and look for a window of opportunity 3 years down the road.
payitforward wrote:I don't have much interest in Avery Bradley. He's ok, yes, but not someone we need to acquire, esp. not at his salary. No more development in him.
I could go for Denzel Valentine -- DR has the Celtics nabbing him #16. But we'll never trade Beal for picks.
In the end, the biggest variable is what GMs around the league think of Beal -- he was a #3 pick, he shoots a high 3pt. %, he scores a lot. There may well be a high opinion of the guy around the league.
For another thing, our biggest deficit right now is that we have so very very few assets of any kind -- outside of Beal, only 5 players. No picks this year. Not nearly as much cap room as people seem to think.
That means it should be very important to us to restock that asset pool. Now... it won't be -- but it should be. And if our FO recognized that, then Boston really is the ideal trading partner: they can't begin to use the assets they have. Plus, they must be thinking they are close to contending for the East, so that if they pool those assets they can't use anyway and move them for one player that makes a difference, then they are sitting pretty.
That's where the question of how GMs see Brad Beal comes into play.
thricethefun wrote:nate33 wrote:If the Wizards make any trades, I kinda think that the move to make is to trade Wall and Gortat, get young, tank, and built for 2018. We are in an unenviable position of having cap room at a time when everyone is overpriced. The only "bargains" will be superstars, and we're not an attractive enough destination to land one. Basically, we have zero chance and getting as good as Cleveland, OKC or Golden State over the next 2 years so what's the point?
The best move may be to trade our most overrated player (Wall) for as much value as we can get. I'm not trying to insult Wall by labeling him "overrated". I'm just trying to be realistic. If you ask most people around they league, they'd consider Wall the 4th or 5th best PG in the game. In reality, there isn't much to distinguish him from the guys that rank in the 8-13 range. And given that his game is based on athleticism, I think he's already at his peak and will probably decline a bit earlier than skill guys like Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. Maybe the smart move is to sell high on him.
Likewise, Gortat will be over the hill before this team really has a chance to compete, so he should be on the trading block as well.
We have 3 really young players in Beal, Oubre and Porter, plus Satoransky. If we can get some high picks out of Wall and Gortat, maybe we can find some talented young frontcourt players, and spend the next 2 years tanking and developing. Spend our cap room on youngish guys like Biyombo, Sullinger, Acy, Motiejunas and/or Terrence Jones and look for a window of opportunity 3 years down the road.
I disagree. I actually think his floor vision is what sets his game apart from other point guards right now. As he gets older he is going to need to keep improving that jumper but I think his game will age fine. Obviously he won't have the same amount of one man fast breaks when he gets into his 30's, but he should be able to make up for that with increased awareness in the half court both offensively and defensively.
nate33 wrote:thricethefun wrote:nate33 wrote:If the Wizards make any trades, I kinda think that the move to make is to trade Wall and Gortat, get young, tank, and built for 2018. We are in an unenviable position of having cap room at a time when everyone is overpriced. The only "bargains" will be superstars, and we're not an attractive enough destination to land one. Basically, we have zero chance and getting as good as Cleveland, OKC or Golden State over the next 2 years so what's the point?
The best move may be to trade our most overrated player (Wall) for as much value as we can get. I'm not trying to insult Wall by labeling him "overrated". I'm just trying to be realistic. If you ask most people around they league, they'd consider Wall the 4th or 5th best PG in the game. In reality, there isn't much to distinguish him from the guys that rank in the 8-13 range. And given that his game is based on athleticism, I think he's already at his peak and will probably decline a bit earlier than skill guys like Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. Maybe the smart move is to sell high on him.
Likewise, Gortat will be over the hill before this team really has a chance to compete, so he should be on the trading block as well.
We have 3 really young players in Beal, Oubre and Porter, plus Satoransky. If we can get some high picks out of Wall and Gortat, maybe we can find some talented young frontcourt players, and spend the next 2 years tanking and developing. Spend our cap room on youngish guys like Biyombo, Sullinger, Acy, Motiejunas and/or Terrence Jones and look for a window of opportunity 3 years down the road.
I disagree. I actually think his floor vision is what sets his game apart from other point guards right now. As he gets older he is going to need to keep improving that jumper but I think his game will age fine. Obviously he won't have the same amount of one man fast breaks when he gets into his 30's, but he should be able to make up for that with increased awareness in the half court both offensively and defensively.
I don't think it's likely that he'll improve his jumper very much going forward. It's not like he hasn't been trying. Some guys just don't have a knack for shooting. His floor vision is indeed excellent, but it's offset by his carelessness with the ball. He has one or two unforced turnovers a game. He just can't seem to clean that up.
Wall was built for another era. These days, your point guard simply has to be an elite perimeter scorer in order to pressure the opposition on their pick-and-roll defense. Wall is not an elite perimeter scorer. He's a bad shooter for a PG and a mediocre isolation scorer in the half court set. I'd much rather have a guy like Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker or Damian Lillard if there was 8 seconds left in a tie game.
Again, I don't want to come off as bashing Wall. He is the best player the team has had since prime Arenas. He's a good leader and has on many occasions carried the team when nobody else seems to step up. He's also a warrior who plays through injury. I really like the guy. I just think his trade value might exceed his actual value.
80sballboy wrote:nate33 wrote:thricethefun wrote:
I disagree. I actually think his floor vision is what sets his game apart from other point guards right now. As he gets older he is going to need to keep improving that jumper but I think his game will age fine. Obviously he won't have the same amount of one man fast breaks when he gets into his 30's, but he should be able to make up for that with increased awareness in the half court both offensively and defensively.
I don't think it's likely that he'll improve his jumper very much going forward. It's not like he hasn't been trying. Some guys just don't have a knack for shooting. His floor vision is indeed excellent, but it's offset by his carelessness with the ball. He has one or two unforced turnovers a game. He just can't seem to clean that up.
Wall was built for another era. These days, your point guard simply has to be an elite perimeter scorer in order to pressure the opposition on their pick-and-roll defense. Wall is not an elite perimeter scorer. He's a bad shooter for a PG and a mediocre isolation scorer in the half court set. I'd much rather have a guy like Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker or Damian Lillard if there was 8 seconds left in a tie game.
Again, I don't want to come off as bashing Wall. He is the best player the team has had since prime Arenas. He's a good leader and has on many occasions carried the team when nobody else seems to step up. He's also a warrior who plays through injury. I really like the guy. I just think his trade value might exceed his actual value.
Wall commits a ton of turnovers, but I think part of that is due to the fact that the Wizards have no ballhandlers with him. He has to set everybody up. I know Batum is a pipe-dream but if you get another guard or forward who can handle the ball and pass it, that would take some pressure off of John. Denzel Valentine, though not a great athlete, is one of those players who can handle and dish it. Same thing with Bradley, who is more of a combo guard though I don't see us making that Beal trade since Ted loves him.
nate33 wrote:80sballboy wrote:nate33 wrote:I don't think it's likely that he'll improve his jumper very much going forward. It's not like he hasn't been trying. Some guys just don't have a knack for shooting. His floor vision is indeed excellent, but it's offset by his carelessness with the ball. He has one or two unforced turnovers a game. He just can't seem to clean that up.
Wall was built for another era. These days, your point guard simply has to be an elite perimeter scorer in order to pressure the opposition on their pick-and-roll defense. Wall is not an elite perimeter scorer. He's a bad shooter for a PG and a mediocre isolation scorer in the half court set. I'd much rather have a guy like Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker or Damian Lillard if there was 8 seconds left in a tie game.
Again, I don't want to come off as bashing Wall. He is the best player the team has had since prime Arenas. He's a good leader and has on many occasions carried the team when nobody else seems to step up. He's also a warrior who plays through injury. I really like the guy. I just think his trade value might exceed his actual value.
Wall commits a ton of turnovers, but I think part of that is due to the fact that the Wizards have no ballhandlers with him. He has to set everybody up. I know Batum is a pipe-dream but if you get another guard or forward who can handle the ball and pass it, that would take some pressure off of John. Denzel Valentine, though not a great athlete, is one of those players who can handle and dish it. Same thing with Bradley, who is more of a combo guard though I don't see us making that Beal trade since Ted loves him.
I disagree. Beal has worked himself into being a reasonably competent ball handler for a SG. Porter is an above-average ball handler for a SF. Gortat has exceptional hands for a center and is rarely responsible for turnovers resulting from Wall-to-Gortat passes.
80sballboy wrote:nate33 wrote:80sballboy wrote:
Wall commits a ton of turnovers, but I think part of that is due to the fact that the Wizards have no ballhandlers with him. He has to set everybody up. I know Batum is a pipe-dream but if you get another guard or forward who can handle the ball and pass it, that would take some pressure off of John. Denzel Valentine, though not a great athlete, is one of those players who can handle and dish it. Same thing with Bradley, who is more of a combo guard though I don't see us making that Beal trade since Ted loves him.
I disagree. Beal has worked himself into being a reasonably competent ball handler for a SG. Porter is an above-average ball handler for a SF. Gortat has exceptional hands for a center and is rarely responsible for turnovers resulting from Wall-to-Gortat passes.
Porter hardly ever drives to the basket. He's not a guy that I feel comfortable with driving and dishing. That's partially due to his lack of strength. But hey, I only watch every game and the metrics must show that he's better or the same as Batum, who averages around 6 assists per game. Beal is competent as a ballhandler as long as nobody breathes on them. Gortat is fine but talking mainly about the 2,3 and 4 spots. Maybe Brooks will help alleviate some of the turnovers.
LyricalRico wrote:80sballboy wrote:nate33 wrote:I disagree. Beal has worked himself into being a reasonably competent ball handler for a SG. Porter is an above-average ball handler for a SF. Gortat has exceptional hands for a center and is rarely responsible for turnovers resulting from Wall-to-Gortat passes.
Porter hardly ever drives to the basket. He's not a guy that I feel comfortable with driving and dishing. That's partially due to his lack of strength. But hey, I only watch every game and the metrics must show that he's better or the same as Batum, who averages around 6 assists per game. Beal is competent as a ballhandler as long as nobody breathes on them. Gortat is fine but talking mainly about the 2,3 and 4 spots. Maybe Brooks will help alleviate some of the turnovers.
I think you're both right, it just sounds to me like you guys are using the same phrase ("ball handling") to describe two different things. 80's, sounds like you mean "play maker" - as in a guy who can use the dribble to get his own shot or set up someone else. While it sounds like nate is talking about guys that can capably handle the ball as part of the regular offense.
We definitely have guys who are all capable of facilitating an offense, which is why Wittman was so frustrating. But we don't have anyone other than Wall that can make something out of nothing when it all breaks down. Beal has done it in spurts (mostly when he steps up in the playoffs), but not on a nightly basis. Would be nice to get somebody like that this summer.
nate33 wrote:If the Wizards make any trades, I kinda think that the move to make is to trade Wall and Gortat, get young, tank, and built for 2018. We are in an unenviable position of having cap room at a time when everyone is overpriced. The only "bargains" will be superstars, and we're not an attractive enough destination to land one. Basically, we have zero chance and getting as good as Cleveland, OKC or Golden State over the next 2 years so what's the point?
The best move may be to trade our most overrated player (Wall) for as much value as we can get. I'm not trying to insult Wall by labeling him "overrated". I'm just trying to be realistic. If you ask most people around they league, they'd consider Wall the 4th or 5th best PG in the game. In reality, there isn't much to distinguish him from the guys that rank in the 8-13 range. And given that his game is based on athleticism, I think he's already at his peak and will probably decline a bit earlier than skill guys like Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. Maybe the smart move is to sell high on him.
Likewise, Gortat will be over the hill before this team really has a chance to compete, so he should be on the trading block as well.
We have 3 really young players in Beal, Oubre and Porter, plus Satoransky. If we can get some high picks out of Wall and Gortat, maybe we can find some talented young frontcourt players, and spend the next 2 years tanking and developing. Spend our cap room on youngish guys like Biyombo, Sullinger, Acy, Motiejunas and/or Terrence Jones and look for a window of opportunity 3 years down the road.
payitforward wrote:What a pathetic situation we are in. And I expect things to get worse not better. Ernie has to sign 9-10 players in order to fill out this team. History says he's unlikely to do a good job. But... you never know, so we'll keep being hopeful. I'm just worried that with only one blind squirrel we can't get lucky enough to find the number of nuts we need!
queridiculo wrote:payitforward wrote:What a pathetic situation we are in. And I expect things to get worse not better. Ernie has to sign 9-10 players in order to fill out this team. History says he's unlikely to do a good job. But... you never know, so we'll keep being hopeful. I'm just worried that with only one blind squirrel we can't get lucky enough to find the number of nuts we need!
That's pretty much it, the Wizards need more blind squirrels, or an infinite number of monkeys.
FAH1223 wrote:queridiculo wrote:payitforward wrote:What a pathetic situation we are in. And I expect things to get worse not better. Ernie has to sign 9-10 players in order to fill out this team. History says he's unlikely to do a good job. But... you never know, so we'll keep being hopeful. I'm just worried that with only one blind squirrel we can't get lucky enough to find the number of nuts we need!
That's pretty much it, the Wizards need more blind squirrels, or an infinite number of monkeys.
They could just look at Kevin's PPA chart of every guy in the league and sign free agents off that.
nate33 wrote:thricethefun wrote:nate33 wrote:If the Wizards make any trades, I kinda think that the move to make is to trade Wall and Gortat, get young, tank, and built for 2018. We are in an unenviable position of having cap room at a time when everyone is overpriced. The only "bargains" will be superstars, and we're not an attractive enough destination to land one. Basically, we have zero chance and getting as good as Cleveland, OKC or Golden State over the next 2 years so what's the point?
The best move may be to trade our most overrated player (Wall) for as much value as we can get. I'm not trying to insult Wall by labeling him "overrated". I'm just trying to be realistic. If you ask most people around they league, they'd consider Wall the 4th or 5th best PG in the game. In reality, there isn't much to distinguish him from the guys that rank in the 8-13 range. And given that his game is based on athleticism, I think he's already at his peak and will probably decline a bit earlier than skill guys like Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. Maybe the smart move is to sell high on him.
Likewise, Gortat will be over the hill before this team really has a chance to compete, so he should be on the trading block as well.
We have 3 really young players in Beal, Oubre and Porter, plus Satoransky. If we can get some high picks out of Wall and Gortat, maybe we can find some talented young frontcourt players, and spend the next 2 years tanking and developing. Spend our cap room on youngish guys like Biyombo, Sullinger, Acy, Motiejunas and/or Terrence Jones and look for a window of opportunity 3 years down the road.
I disagree. I actually think his floor vision is what sets his game apart from other point guards right now. As he gets older he is going to need to keep improving that jumper but I think his game will age fine. Obviously he won't have the same amount of one man fast breaks when he gets into his 30's, but he should be able to make up for that with increased awareness in the half court both offensively and defensively.
I don't think it's likely that he'll improve his jumper very much going forward. It's not like he hasn't been trying. Some guys just don't have a knack for shooting. His floor vision is indeed excellent, but it's offset by his carelessness with the ball. He has one or two unforced turnovers a game. He just can't seem to clean that up.
Wall was built for another era. These days, your point guard simply has to be an elite perimeter scorer in order to pressure the opposition on their pick-and-roll defense. Wall is not an elite perimeter scorer. He's a bad shooter for a PG and a mediocre isolation scorer in the half court set. I'd much rather have a guy like Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker or Damian Lillard if there was 8 seconds left in a tie game.
Again, I don't want to come off as bashing Wall. He is the best player the team has had since prime Arenas. He's a good leader and has on many occasions carried the team when nobody else seems to step up. He's also a warrior who plays through injury. I really like the guy. I just think his trade value might exceed his actual value.
