Political Roundtable Part XXV

[dckingsfan]

No, because if those people do exist (I'm sure they do, just not as big as you may be alluding to), my stance on life can't eb swayed by hypocrites such as those. They are the worse of the worse.

Well considering that 1 in 4 women have had an abortion then there are literally millions of Republicans, Conservatives, Christians and anti abortion women that have indeed had abortions themselves. That means that statistically you know female family members, friends, coworkers, classmates or acquaintances that I’m sure you would consider are good people that have had abortions. Things aren’t as black and white as you paint them. I suggest talking to women who’ve had abortions and trying to empathize with them. It might open you up to different perspectives on the issue.

Oh I don't doubt there's hypocrisy on the basis in which you mentioned, and it's truly sad and pathetic on their parts. I again won't use the phrase "black & white" as many folks tend to make political issues such as these into racial disparities as well, not saying you are doing it, but I'll prefer to sue the term "cut and dry" which I think it is in the majority of cases. Abortion is a selfish, heartless decision, plain and simple. Again, I'm not talking in the case of the mother or child's life is in danger if carried to term, and rape is also one that merits discussion, those are circumstances beyond the woman's control, essentially through no fault of her own.

But if it's just an accidental pregnancy, she can just terminate her child like it's apiece of garbage, a banana peel to just throw away, I don't think there's anything a woman in that category could say to justify the choice

The problem is the remedy. First, many on your side of the aisle would have a woman prove that she was raped or coerced into sex. That would take you well past the first trimester.

Second, for those having an abortion - what do you do with them? More prison like the failed war on drugs? And with abortion drugs easily attained - it isn't as easy as shutting down a few clinics.

And then there is the issue of if you do force women to bring the babies to childhood - society then owes that child a future. So, free child care, free healthcare, free education and a guaranteed living wage for the mother. Remember - those are the same issues that your party ran/runs against. Many women that KNOW that they can't reasonably raise a child feel that it is cruel and heartless to bring that child into the world.

[daoneandonly]

Well considering that 1 in 4 women have had an abortion then there are literally millions of Republicans, Conservatives, Christians and anti abortion women that have indeed had abortions themselves. That means that statistically you know female family members, friends, coworkers, classmates or acquaintances that I’m sure you would consider are good people that have had abortions. Things aren’t as black and white as you paint them. I suggest talking to women who’ve had abortions and trying to empathize with them. It might open you up to different perspectives on the issue.

Oh I don't doubt there's hypocrisy on the basis in which you mentioned, and it's truly sad and pathetic on their parts. I again won't use the phrase "black & white" as many folks tend to make political issues such as these into racial disparities as well, not saying you are doing it, but I'll prefer to sue the term "cut and dry" which I think it is in the majority of cases. Abortion is a selfish, heartless decision, plain and simple. Again, I'm not talking in the case of the mother or child's life is in danger if carried to term, and rape is also one that merits discussion, those are circumstances beyond the woman's control, essentially through no fault of her own.

But if it's just an accidental pregnancy, she can just terminate her child like it's apiece of garbage, a banana peel to just throw away, I don't think there's anything a woman in that category could say to justify the choice

The problem is the remedy. First, many on your side of the aisle would have a woman prove that she was raped or coerced into sex. That would take you well past the first trimester.

Second, for those having an abortion - what do you do with them? More prison like the failed war on drugs? And with abortion drugs easily attained - it isn't as easy as shutting down a few clinics.

And then there is the issue of if you do force women to bring the babies to childhood - society then owes that child a future. So, free child care, free healthcare, free education and a guaranteed living wage for the mother. Remember - those are the same issues that your party ran/runs against. Many women that KNOW that they can't reasonably raise a child feel that it is cruel and heartless to bring that child into the world.

I can see your vantage point on many of what you touched on, yes the remedy is a huge problem, and its hard to find a suitable solution, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

In terms of raising a child, adoption is a valid option by all means, and there are thousands, if not millions of couples who cannot conceive who want to be parents. I know many will argue its cruel or unfair to ask a woman to carry a baby for 9 months, I don't see how thats any more cruel than killing the child and not giving him/her a chance at all. The child did nothing, whereas the woman made a conscious choice that put her in said predicament.

[dobrojim]

I have not read it WP. I trust Mueller and the 15 experienced prosecutors who despise Trump to render their legal conclusions. They found no collusion. Mueller concluded his investigation without interference from Trump so no one obstructed the legal process. What more is there to debate?

That is the lie that Barr has perpetrated. The report describes over 100
meetings of Trump campaign officials with Russians. Trump people shared
sensitive polling information with Russians. What the report says was this
behavior did not rise to the standard of a criminal conspiracy which is difficult
to prove. What Trumpsters never address is the question of whether this
behavior was okay.

What if in mid July of 2020, the presumptive Dem nominee gave a public
address in which they call upon the Chinese to hack the RNC. Following
this suggestion, the Chinese did successfully hack the RNC and then
had discussions with the Dems about the most effective methods and
timing to release this stolen information. Would this be okay?

What if this was all successful and the Dem narrowly won by drawing
an inside straight winning 3 key states unexpectedly. After discovering
the natl security apparatus had decided this was worth looking into
the new president fired the head of the investigation. Would this be okay?

[dckingsfan]

Oh I don't doubt there's hypocrisy on the basis in which you mentioned, and it's truly sad and pathetic on their parts. I again won't use the phrase "black & white" as many folks tend to make political issues such as these into racial disparities as well, not saying you are doing it, but I'll prefer to sue the term "cut and dry" which I think it is in the majority of cases. Abortion is a selfish, heartless decision, plain and simple. Again, I'm not talking in the case of the mother or child's life is in danger if carried to term, and rape is also one that merits discussion, those are circumstances beyond the woman's control, essentially through no fault of her own.

But if it's just an accidental pregnancy, she can just terminate her child like it's apiece of garbage, a banana peel to just throw away, I don't think there's anything a woman in that category could say to justify the choice

The problem is the remedy. First, many on your side of the aisle would have a woman prove that she was raped or coerced into sex. That would take you well past the first trimester.

Second, for those having an abortion - what do you do with them? More prison like the failed war on drugs? And with abortion drugs easily attained - it isn't as easy as shutting down a few clinics.

And then there is the issue of if you do force women to bring the babies to childhood - society then owes that child a future. So, free child care, free healthcare, free education and a guaranteed living wage for the mother. Remember - those are the same issues that your party ran/runs against. Many women that KNOW that they can't reasonably raise a child feel that it is cruel and heartless to bring that child into the world.

I can see your vantage point on many of what you touched on, yes the remedy is a huge problem, and its hard to find a suitable solution, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

In terms of raising a child, adoption is a valid option by all means, and there are thousands, if not millions of couples who cannot conceive who want to be parents. I know many will argue its cruel or unfair to ask a woman to carry a baby for 9 months, I don't see how thats any more cruel than killing the child and not giving him/her a chance at all. The child did nothing, whereas the woman made a conscious choice that put her in said predicament.

I didn't add to that - free prenatal care. Lots of women are dying bringing their kids to conception.

And what of those that claim rape... as long as they are free to abort without being questioned, then you have more solid ground. And for those that abort with drugs on their own, as long as their is no prison in the future, then you would have more solid ground.

But that isn't what is being asked for. Today - the stance is - all abortions would be illegal and those having an abortion would be jailed. In addition, there are two terrible choices. Either give the baby up that you risked your life to bring into the world or move to poverty.

Nah, no solution there - not even a starting point.

[dckingsfan]

I have not read it WP. I trust Mueller and the 15 experienced prosecutors who despise Trump to render their legal conclusions. They found no collusion. Mueller concluded his investigation without interference from Trump so no one obstructed the legal process. What more is there to debate?

That is the lie that Barr has perpetrated. The report describes over 100
meetings of Trump campaign officials with Russians. Trump people shared
sensitive polling information with Russians. What the report says was this
behavior did not rise to the standard of a criminal conspiracy which is difficult
to prove. What Trumpsters never address is the question of whether this
behavior was okay.

What if in mid July of 2020, the presumptive Dem nominee gave a public
address in which they call upon the Chinese to hack the RNC. Following
this suggestion, the Chinese did successfully hack the RNC and then
had discussions with the Dems about the most effective methods and
timing to release this stolen information. Would this be okay?

What if this was all successful and the Dem narrowly won by drawing
an inside straight winning 3 key states unexpectedly. After discovering
the natl security apparatus had decided this was worth looking into
the new president fired the head of the investigation. Would this be okay?

That's a terrific idea - who can hack better, the Chinese or the Russians?

[dobrojim]

why are the criminal penalties never focused on the woman for deciding
and allowing an abortion to occur? The conservative response to this puts
the lie to their description of abortion as murder.

[daoneandonly]

The problem is the remedy. First, many on your side of the aisle would have a woman prove that she was raped or coerced into sex. That would take you well past the first trimester.

Second, for those having an abortion - what do you do with them? More prison like the failed war on drugs? And with abortion drugs easily attained - it isn't as easy as shutting down a few clinics.

And then there is the issue of if you do force women to bring the babies to childhood - society then owes that child a future. So, free child care, free healthcare, free education and a guaranteed living wage for the mother. Remember - those are the same issues that your party ran/runs against. Many women that KNOW that they can't reasonably raise a child feel that it is cruel and heartless to bring that child into the world.

I can see your vantage point on many of what you touched on, yes the remedy is a huge problem, and its hard to find a suitable solution, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

In terms of raising a child, adoption is a valid option by all means, and there are thousands, if not millions of couples who cannot conceive who want to be parents. I know many will argue its cruel or unfair to ask a woman to carry a baby for 9 months, I don't see how thats any more cruel than killing the child and not giving him/her a chance at all. The child did nothing, whereas the woman made a conscious choice that put her in said predicament.

I didn't add to that - free prenatal care. Lots of women are dying bringing their kids to conception.

And what of those that claim rape... as long as they are free to abort without being questioned, then you have more solid ground. And for those that abort with drugs on their own, as long as their is no prison in the future, then you would have more solid ground.

But that isn't what is being asked for. Today - the stance is - all abortions would be illegal and those having an abortion would be jailed. In addition, there are two terrible choices. Either give the baby up that you risked your life to bring into the world or move to poverty.

Nah, no solution there - not even a starting point.

You say these terrible choices, but dont mention the choice thats worse than both, killing someone. That's what I just dont understand or agree with

Without questioning rape? There goes every woman claiming rape, and then what? Drop the charges and accusation after the abortion?

It's ridiculous for the folks on your side to be up in arms about the children that were separated from their parents at the border (as should be, they are innocent children), so what they have more value and rights because they simply passed a birth canal?

[dckingsfan]

I can see your vantage point on many of what you touched on, yes the remedy is a huge problem, and its hard to find a suitable solution, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

In terms of raising a child, adoption is a valid option by all means, and there are thousands, if not millions of couples who cannot conceive who want to be parents. I know many will argue its cruel or unfair to ask a woman to carry a baby for 9 months, I don't see how thats any more cruel than killing the child and not giving him/her a chance at all. The child did nothing, whereas the woman made a conscious choice that put her in said predicament.

I didn't add to that - free prenatal care. Lots of women are dying bringing their kids to conception.

And what of those that claim rape... as long as they are free to abort without being questioned, then you have more solid ground. And for those that abort with drugs on their own, as long as their is no prison in the future, then you would have more solid ground.

But that isn't what is being asked for. Today - the stance is - all abortions would be illegal and those having an abortion would be jailed. In addition, there are two terrible choices. Either give the baby up that you risked your life to bring into the world or move to poverty.

Nah, no solution there - not even a starting point.

You say these terrible choices, but dont mention the choice thats worse than both, killing someone. That's what I just dont understand or agree with

Without questioning rape? There goes every woman claiming rape, and then what? Drop the charges and accusation after the abortion?

It's ridiculous for the folks on your side to be up in arms about the children that were separated from their parents at the border (as should be, they are innocent children), so what they have more value and rights because they simply passed a birth canal?

And there you have it - that is why there is no middle ground.

A woman would have to prove rape - she has to go to court. Most woman do not want to do that. It is a non-starter.

You skirted the issue of jail. No jail time or it is a non-starter.

We would need adequate resources for the mother and child. Or that is a non-starter.

At least you should now see why there is no middle ground

[daoneandonly]

I didn't add to that - free prenatal care. Lots of women are dying bringing their kids to conception.

And what of those that claim rape... as long as they are free to abort without being questioned, then you have more solid ground. And for those that abort with drugs on their own, as long as their is no prison in the future, then you would have more solid ground.

But that isn't what is being asked for. Today - the stance is - all abortions would be illegal and those having an abortion would be jailed. In addition, there are two terrible choices. Either give the baby up that you risked your life to bring into the world or move to poverty.

Nah, no solution there - not even a starting point.

You say these terrible choices, but dont mention the choice thats worse than both, killing someone. That's what I just dont understand or agree with

Without questioning rape? There goes every woman claiming rape, and then what? Drop the charges and accusation after the abortion?

It's ridiculous for the folks on your side to be up in arms about the children that were separated from their parents at the border (as should be, they are innocent children), so what they have more value and rights because they simply passed a birth canal?

And there you have it - that is why there is no middle ground.

A woman would have to prove rape - she has to go to court. Most woman do not want to do that. It is a non-starter.

You skirted the issue of jail. No jail time or it is a non-starter.

We would need adequate resources for the mother and child. Or that is a non-starter.

At least you should now see why there is no middle ground

I dont agree with Trump on probably the good majority of things. But one thing I did agree on that he ultimately back peddled on was a woman having an abortion should be punished in some way, shape, or form.

People think its a joke, but I think it's a valuable approach, an abortion registry. There's a sex offender registry because they are a danger to kids, same with a mother who would kill her child. How is that person not a danger like the perv on the registry?

[dckingsfan]

You say these terrible choices, but dont mention the choice thats worse than both, killing someone. That's what I just dont understand or agree with

Without questioning rape? There goes every woman claiming rape, and then what? Drop the charges and accusation after the abortion?

It's ridiculous for the folks on your side to be up in arms about the children that were separated from their parents at the border (as should be, they are innocent children), so what they have more value and rights because they simply passed a birth canal?

And there you have it - that is why there is no middle ground.

A woman would have to prove rape - she has to go to court. Most woman do not want to do that. It is a non-starter.

You skirted the issue of jail. No jail time or it is a non-starter.

We would need adequate resources for the mother and child. Or that is a non-starter.

At least you should now see why there is no middle ground

I dont agree with Trump on probably the good majority of things. But one thing I did agree on that he ultimately back peddled on was a woman having an abortion should be punished in some way, shape, or form.

People think its a joke, but I think it's a valuable approach, an abortion registry. There's a sex offender registry because they are a danger to kids, same with a mother who would kill her child. How is that person not a danger like the perv on the registry?

Yeah, an abortion registry would be a non-starter.

You can see how there is never going to be a middle ground on this.

[daoneandonly]

So what's the argument here for allowing these lowlifes to stay in the country? For eliminating ICE?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ice-seeks-out-custody-of-two-maryland-teens-accused-in-brutal-stabbing-death-of-14-year-old-girl/ar-AABIJpF

[pancakes3]

So what's the argument here for allowing these lowlifes to stay in the country? For eliminating ICE?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ice-seeks-out-custody-of-two-maryland-teens-accused-in-brutal-stabbing-death-of-14-year-old-girl/ar-AABIJpF

Because ICE doesn't make us any safer? These kids were already arrested by PG county police, in custody, and awaiting trial all without needing ICE.

[daoneandonly]

So what's the argument here for allowing these lowlifes to stay in the country? For eliminating ICE?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ice-seeks-out-custody-of-two-maryland-teens-accused-in-brutal-stabbing-death-of-14-year-old-girl/ar-AABIJpF

Because ICE doesn't make us any safer? These kids were already arrested by PG county police, in custody, and awaiting trial all without needing ICE.

Perhaps ICE and/or other immigration methods could have got them out of this country before they killed someone

[pancakes3]

So what's the argument here for allowing these lowlifes to stay in the country? For eliminating ICE?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ice-seeks-out-custody-of-two-maryland-teens-accused-in-brutal-stabbing-death-of-14-year-old-girl/ar-AABIJpF

Because ICE doesn't make us any safer? These kids were already arrested by PG county police, in custody, and awaiting trial all without needing ICE.

Perhaps ICE and/or other immigration methods could have got them out of this country before they killed someone

You can't treat every immigrants as if they are going to be murderers.

[popper]

I have not read it WP. I trust Mueller and the 15 experienced prosecutors who despise Trump to render their legal conclusions. They found no collusion. Mueller concluded his investigation without interference from Trump so no one obstructed the legal process. What more is there to debate?

That is the lie that Barr has perpetrated. The report describes over 100
meetings of Trump campaign officials with Russians. Trump people shared
sensitive polling information with Russians. What the report says was this
behavior did not rise to the standard of a criminal conspiracy which is difficult
to prove. What Trumpsters never address is the question of whether this
behavior was okay.

What if in mid July of 2020, the presumptive Dem nominee gave a public
address in which they call upon the Chinese to hack the RNC. Following
this suggestion, the Chinese did successfully hack the RNC and then
had discussions with the Dems about the most effective methods and
timing to release this stolen information. Would this be okay?

What if this was all successful and the Dem narrowly won by drawing
an inside straight winning 3 key states unexpectedly. After discovering
the natl security apparatus had decided this was worth looking into
the new president fired the head of the investigation. Would this be okay?

I don’t want any foreign entity interfering in our elections. I think most D’s agree with you and others here that Trump obstructed an investigation and or colluded with the Russians. I understand that position and so the D’s should file Articles of Impeachment asap. What are they waiting for?

[I_Like_Dirt]

People think its a joke, but I think it's a valuable approach, an abortion registry. There's a sex offender registry because they are a danger to kids, same with a mother who would kill her child. How is that person not a danger like the perv on the registry?

How about we turn the tables. Every abortion that happens, there is a paternity test. Every male has their DNA on file. You are the father and put yourself in a situation where the mother decided on an abortion? You pay the price! You go to jail. There is a simple solution to that one, too! Abstinence!!!! Then men wouldn't have anything to worry about!

See, that's an absolutely ridiculous scenario but it's basically the same thing you're proposing for women and suggesting it isn't a joke.

I can't believe you're still talking about adoptions and such. The last time I interjected into the conversation I brought up all the problems with foster care. Nobody is talking about fixing that. The reality is that, if anyone actually did care about preventing abortion, they would be right there with supports for mothers and families, supports for foster care, etc. As soon as someone comes out as being anti-abortion but isn't interested in dealing with any of those issues first, it's patently clear that they aren't actually interested in preventing abortions and the question begs asking: what are they actually interested in?

In the 80s, there were loads of states that made suicide illegal. It didn't stop anything. It was patently clear that, if people wanted to prevent suicide, they needed to start with more social supports, mental health supports, and potentially gun control, and since there wasn't any political will for things like that, the issue was dropped. Unlike suicide, there is often still someone left alive to vilify and blame and attempt to apply vengeance to in cases of abortion, though that's also true in cases of failed suicide attempts, just with certain differences. There are people out there who are actively working to prevent abortions. There aren't very many people campaigning to make abortions illegal who are doing as much. They might actually want to prevent abortions but they aren't doing anything to stop them and are instead choosing to do something that's going to cause far more problems than it solves.

[daoneandonly]

Because ICE doesn't make us any safer? These kids were already arrested by PG county police, in custody, and awaiting trial all without needing ICE.

Perhaps ICE and/or other immigration methods could have got them out of this country before they killed someone

You can't treat every immigrants as if they are going to be murderers.

Of course not, that's heinous, but I dont think that's what anyone is truly aiming for. But stuff like this can be avoided if better measures were put in place, and actions that resulted in breaking of the preventable measures were also enforced

[daoneandonly]

People think its a joke, but I think it's a valuable approach, an abortion registry. There's a sex offender registry because they are a danger to kids, same with a mother who would kill her child. How is that person not a danger like the perv on the registry?

How about we turn the tables. Every abortion that happens, there is a paternity test. Every male has their DNA on file. You are the father and put yourself in a situation where the mother decided on an abortion? You pay the price! You go to jail. There is a simple solution to that one, too! Abstinence!!!! Then men wouldn't have anything to worry about!

See, that's an absolutely ridiculous scenario but it's basically the same thing you're proposing for women and suggesting it isn't a joke.

I can't believe you're still talking about adoptions and such. The last time I interjected into the conversation I brought up all the problems with foster care. Nobody is talking about fixing that. The reality is that, if anyone actually did care about preventing abortion, they would be right there with supports for mothers and families, supports for foster care, etc. As soon as someone comes out as being anti-abortion but isn't interested in dealing with any of those issues first, it's patently clear that they aren't actually interested in preventing abortions and the question begs asking: what are they actually interested in?

In the 80s, there were loads of states that made suicide illegal. It didn't stop anything. It was patently clear that, if people wanted to prevent suicide, they needed to start with more social supports, mental health supports, and potentially gun control, and since there wasn't any political will for things like that, the issue was dropped. Unlike suicide, there is often still someone left alive to vilify and blame and attempt to apply vengeance to in cases of abortion, though that's also true in cases of failed suicide attempts, just with certain differences. There are people out there who are actively working to prevent abortions. There aren't very many people campaigning to make abortions illegal who are doing as much. They might actually want to prevent abortions but they aren't doing anything to stop them and are instead choosing to do something that's going to cause far more problems than it solves.

How is that even remotely in the same category? Every man's DNA vs a registry of women who have willingly decided to have an abortion, hereby committed murder? That's not even an apples to oranges comparisons, its apples to a ceiling fan. I'm all for the "father" in the scenario to own up and be responsible, it takes two to tango. But why you went the route of saying every man should have their DNA on file makes zero sense.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Of course not, that's heinous, but I dont think that's what anyone is truly aiming for. But stuff like this can be avoided if better measures were put in place, and actions that resulted in breaking of the preventable measures were also enforced

How about we apply those same measures to native-born citizens since those are the ones who are committing the most crimes.

[daoneandonly]

Of course not, that's heinous, but I dont think that's what anyone is truly aiming for. But stuff like this can be avoided if better measures were put in place, and actions that resulted in breaking of the preventable measures were also enforced

How about we apply those same measures to native-born citizens since those are the ones who are committing the most crimes.

I'm with you Dirt money, the past week or so I've been saying the criminal justice system needs to eb harsher and enforced far better, and prisoners should not be allowed to vote. You won't hear any argument here on that.

The point of this debate is these guys should not have even been here, if we can get them out and prevent the alike from coming in, why wouldnt we?